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Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2017, 03:47:33 am »
Quote from: Allaya;201349
Huh. Learn something new every day.  

It must be somewhat compartmentalized in usage, tho, as I've only run into Ablism when looking at UK-based autism resources.

 
"Ableism" is becoming more commonly used in UK activism and resources simply because it is more well-known online, and so it's often easier to just go 'yes, fine, that'. There are specific reasons why I only use "disablism" unless I absolutely *have* to use "ableism", and in fairness to the person being corrected, they were presumably going with the term I was using.

In a nutshell, 'disablism' fits better with the social model of disability (which is, very roughly, that disability is the state of being encumbered by society's *reactions to* and *lack of provisions for* your impairment - it's not perfect (some aspects of some impairments/conditions pretty much can't be solved with accommodations etc) but it's about the best model I've come across) and to my ears 'ableism' implies that we're being discriminated against due to our lack of ability - i.e. that on some level it's down to a flaw with us that we should just get on and fix, and/or that it only applies to people who aren't 'able' (and thus that someone who is physically disabled but also has, say, excellent workplace skills and is able to keep working isn't 'really all that disabled' and doesn't face discrimination on that basis). (Obviously this isn't what is usually meant by the term, however, it's worth noting that I've encountered a fairly large minority of US disability activists who do, apparently, think that UK disability activists are a bunch of whining ninnies who should bootstrap our way out of chronic illness and mental health problems and such...)

This post explains better than I can before 9am http://lisybabe.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/disablism-vs-ableism.html

(Okay, now to go and read the rest of the thread!)

Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2017, 03:54:34 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201474
"Ableism" is becoming more commonly used in UK activism and resources simply because it is more well-known online, and so it's often easier to just go 'yes, fine, that'.

 
Oh, and, of course, because some just prefer it! We're not a monolith, and all that.

Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2017, 03:58:20 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201474


This post explains better than I can before 9am http://lisybabe.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/disablism-vs-ableism.html

(Okay, now to go and read the rest of the thread!)

 
I was actually meaning to link this post http://lisybabe.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/ableism-stop-insulting-me.html (Which is linked from the one I did link, but anyway). Contains a few minor swears.

Allaya

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2017, 08:53:43 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201474
"Ableism" is becoming more commonly used in UK activism and resources simply because it is more well-known online, and so it's often easier to just go 'yes, fine, that'. There are specific reasons why I only use "disablism" unless I absolutely *have* to use "ableism", and in fairness to the person being corrected, they were presumably going with the term I was using.

In a nutshell, 'disablism' fits better with the social model of disability (which is, very roughly, that disability is the state of being encumbered by society's *reactions to* and *lack of provisions for* your impairment - it's not perfect (some aspects of some impairments/conditions pretty much can't be solved with accommodations etc) but it's about the best model I've come across) and to my ears 'ableism' implies that we're being discriminated against due to our lack of ability - i.e. that on some level it's down to a flaw with us that we should just get on and fix, and/or that it only applies to people who aren't 'able' (and thus that someone who is physically disabled but also has, say, excellent workplace skills and is able to keep working isn't 'really all that disabled' and doesn't face discrimination on that basis). (Obviously this isn't what is usually meant by the term, however, it's worth noting that I've encountered a fairly large minority of US disability activists who do, apparently, think that UK disability activists are a bunch of whining ninnies who should bootstrap our way out of chronic illness and mental health problems and such...)

This post explains better than I can before 9am http://lisybabe.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/disablism-vs-ableism.html

(Okay, now to go and read the rest of the thread!)

 

Ahh, thank you for your enlightening post!

I'm a firm believer in the social model of disability, so it's not a new concept to me, but I think that the trouble may stem from the differences in how Americans and those from the British Isles linguistically show negation or otherness.

I grew up in the US and spent my first twenty years there, but was raised up with a great deal of exposure to British television and books. I've also spent over a decade so far in Europe where everyone's English is taught/spoken in the British manner.

As such, the lines are very blurry for me when it comes to linguistic nuances like that and sometimes I flat-out forget that sometimes a word can be the opposite of what I'd use, but mean the same thing.

The posts you linked were nice to read. I like getting "the other side" in that it makes me sit and re-evaluate periodically, which is a good habit to have anyways. I can see how the term disablism has traction with those who use it, but it doesn't parse for me.

My thoughts are in line with one of the replies on the one you originally linked. I see Ableism being in line with other Isms like Sexism and Racism.

Sexism uses sexual presentation as the metric by which others are judged.

Racism uses racial presentation as the metric by which others are judged.

And to my mind...

Ableism used ability presentation as the metric by which others are judged.

Disablism doesn't work for me, syntax wise, as the word uses a negation prefix. Also doesn't work from me on a personal level, as I don't much care for the concept of "disability presentation" as it gives focus to things I or someone else cannot do.

It's way easier to get assistance from other people when giving them a "things I can kick ass at" list or a "useful things you can do to help me" list instead of a "here's a giant list of shit that I can't do."
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Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2017, 05:25:06 am »
Quote from: Allaya;201515

It's way easier to get assistance from other people when giving them a "things I can kick ass at" list or a "useful things you can do to help me" list instead of a "here's a giant list of shit that I can't do."

 
Hmm, I don't really see disability in terms of 'presentation', I guess. Much of my disability is hidden, I use a stick but people can't see my anxiety, my stomach troubles, my autistic and ADHD thinking patterns, or even my fatigue and pain (they tend to assume the stick means I've got an injury).

As far as 'what I can do', well, certainly that's often relevant, but so is the fact that I can't walk very far, I can't travel reliably by public transport, and I can't necessarily concentrate well enough to do some types of work from home, and my pain and fatigue levels are unpredictable so I could only work from home if it was a kind of 'choose my own working hours' deal, when it comes to, say, claiming the benefits I need to live on - the govt has decided that it's better to 'focus on what you can do' which tends to mean 'oh, you can type sometimes? you're fit for work!' regardless of if there's actually any work available that literally only requires being able to type sometimes...

I'd love to work and not have to deal with the benefits claim process and all the energy-wasting nonsense they make you do to 'prepare for work' (the 'well-being class' up two flights of stairs that consisted mostly of 'hey, let's make a list of things that make us happy!' was a doozy, as was the appointment they made for me with a 'financial advisor' to go through a form writing out my income and outgoings, which I could have done at home on the internet, and which I had to spend £15 on cab fares to attend because I couldn't get there safely on public transport...) but there just aren't many jobs out there that let you work somewhere between 1 and 25 hours per week, from home, with no super important deadlines that can't be pushed back if you're stuck in bed for a week, that won't be horribly messed up if you get halfway through a piece of work before realising your brainfog made you do it completely wrong, etc.

I mean, I'm all for positive language, but the fact is, there *are* quite a lot of things I can't safely do, and it's exhausting having to constantly prove this just to be able to afford to feed myself and my kid, just because I happen to also be smart and able to write the odd thing semi-coherently on the internet.

Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2017, 05:27:34 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201564

I mean, I'm all for positive language, but the fact is, there *are* quite a lot of things I can't safely do, and it's exhausting having to constantly prove this just to be able to afford to feed myself and my kid, just because I happen to also be smart and able to write the odd thing semi-coherently on the internet.

 
Tl;dr version, I guess I have to be realistic and somewhat focused on what I *can't* do, in order to have any hope of managing to do the things I can.

troll maiden

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2017, 10:06:06 am »
Quote from: troll maiden;201288
Anyway, I was wondering what issues people have come across within the various paths.

 
I've had a really interesting time reading through the comments in this thread. I've learnt a great deal about the inner workings of the Pagan community. :)

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2017, 10:52:57 am »
Quote from: Jenett;201334


For example, a lot of people I know who can't comfortably stand at length in ritual have stories about at least some of the following:

1) Rituals which went on forever (hours), when no advance warning or alternatives were given for that.

2) Shaming comments toward people who either (appropriately, i.e. using the designated cutting out or other method) removed themselves from the ritual or who took steps necessary for their wellbeing, like sitting down.

3) Rituals in which 'you can sit' meant 'you can sit on the edge of the circle and look at people's backsides while being unable to hear or see what's going on'.

4) Rituals in which much was made of sharing in the energy, and how people who couldn't dance could sit on the edge and do.. something, but there was no real guidance about how to do that and/or it involved having skills (like ability to participate more complex drumming and a drum) that not everyone has or has that day.

5) Pressure to help with setting up and cleaning up (sharing in the work matters! But a lot of people can't necessarily do a physically challenging ritual for their body *and* do those things immediately before or after)

6) Someone's appropriate (and non-disruptive) self-care leading to them having to justify themselves or their needs to one or more people whose business it isn't, and/or have an extended conversation about their health issues, what stuff they've already tried, explaining that no, the thing your sister's aunt's piano teacher's cousin swears by isn't a good choice for you.

And that's before we get on to...

  • Rituals that only provide material in print with no alternatives for large print or electronic review in advance (for people who are visually impaired)
  • People who rate "atmospheric lighting" over the ability of people in the circle to lipread (or refusing to provide scripts and long text pieces in advance, because 'that would ruin the experience)
  • Ditto, people who don't realise that things like bonfires are wonderful atmosphere, but are very difficult for people whose eyes don't do well with bright lights.
  • A whole host of issues for people with hearing impairments starting with poor enunciation, and continuing to assumptions that everyone who has a hearing impairment knows ASL and that's the solution. (Many people wth adult hearing loss don't, but would benefit from advance text materials or being able to stand in a specific place.)
  • Unnuanced flat statements about mental health or ongoing medication of any kind meaning that someone can not be considered as a student in a group  (and despite your comment I cut, these statements are still up on a number of group websies, or turn up as soon as someone expresses a mental health need, even if it's currently being treated and is reasonably stable.)
  • The tremendous number of events that still take place in spaces inaccessible to people who use mobility devices or can't manage stairs (or where the only bathroom is up or downstairs, etc.) Or are only available if you camp. Or can get over uneven ground to the ritual site.


And on top of all that, there's a lot of just plain ignorance about how to make things more accessible - a lot of people are willing to be educated, but someone has to do that educating, and people with chronic health issues already have plenty in their day.


A lot of UK group ritual (at least in my parts of it) take part outside and frequently in old sacred sites which unfortunately are not easily accessible by modern standards.

I'm going to be running another public ritual shortly and I'd be interested in any comments on how it could be made more accessible than I have already planned.

The site is about 100m from the nearest car access but across rough fields which for old sites is pretty much as good as it gets. It's not my first choice of location but it's the most accessible by far.

Those who will be helping set up/take down have already been allocated their jobs in advance. I don't rely on ad hoc volunteers (learned that the hard way...). Key roles have also been allocated in advance according to experience and mobility.

I am aware of at least a couple of people who will be there who will be unable to take part in the more physically demanding elements so I have designed in a second inner circle which will shape and direct energy whilst an outer circle does the work of the actual energy raising itself.

The site has plenty of rocks to sit on if necessary and if anyone other than me even notices anyone quietly dropping back to sit on one once we are underway I will be very surprised. This is not a wiccan derived ritual so no circle to worry about.

Anything I'm missing?

Jenett

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2017, 11:42:11 am »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;201573

I'm going to be running another public ritual shortly and I'd be interested in any comments on how it could be made more accessible than I have already planned.


I think that sounds pretty good, considering. The biggest thing I'd suggest that I don't see is providing information in advance about what will be happening and what the logistics are, and also some attention to weather/climate issues. (If it rains, do you have a plan? Is there a place for people to warm up nearby if it gets cold and horrible?)

My current job provides a lot of advance information about events on campus (for reasons related to accessibility, but are not related directly to my needs for accessibility) and it turns out that just having the information and not having to hunt for it makes a really significant difference in my comfort: knowing when things start and stop, if there's food what kinds of food I can expect, what arrangements there are for possible weird weather, etc.

For rituals, the info that I think is a useful bare minimum is:
  • When the site opens.
  • When activities begin.
  • What the basic layout is (i.e. 100m on rough ground to ritual site but there's no hill or whatever.)
  • Are children allowed? If so, are there any limits or things parents should be aware of? (open fire, nearby hazards, lots of quiet meditation planned, etc.)
  • The basic plan for the ritual.
  • That there are some seating options on rocks or what to do if you need to bring a chair.
  • About how long the planned ritual is expected to take (it's fine to say "We expect it to be X but ritual lasts as long as needed" - but there's a big difference between 'expecting 45 minutes' and 'expecting 3 hours' for many people in terms of planning)
  • Whether there are plans for food/etc. after (if you are planning to go off to a palce that serves, let people know about accessibilty there, if potluck, whatever notes about making that accessible like bringing ingredient cards/packaging)
  • When people need to leave the site (in case they need to arrange rides / mobility services / etc.)


Since you're out in the open, if there's any obvious allergens might also be helpful (nearby fields with known plants, known things like poison ivy / poison oak / nettles / other plant contact issues might be good to note as well.)
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Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2017, 12:27:02 pm »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;201573

Anything I'm missing?

 
Sounds good. One thing that might be helpful is, if possible, to email known/expected/maybe attendants (or make a FB post or whatever) and let them know that if they have any health concerns, disability, etc, they are welcome to sit if they need to, no questions asked - I know I used to feel terribly awkward doing this in group settings (not necessarily pagan ones per se, just general gatherings and whatnot).

I'm autistic, and would find Jenett's suggestion of a "what to expect" info sheet type thing incredibly helpful, too, it helps me immensely if I'm going to an unfamiliar setting to have a decent idea of an outline of how things are likely to proceed, whether it's okay to bring food (I often need to eat something at odd times to keep myself going in various ways, and I often can't eat anything that's available because of my own food issues), etc.

A quiet space (ideally not involving a long walk or confusing directions - by the sound of it for your event it might pretty much be 'you can go over there for a bit if you like', for an indoor event maybe a room a little way away from the main room would be good) is incredibly useful for anyone feeling a bit overwhelmed in various ways.

Oh! Oh! A thing I've found very useful at conventions and stuff (when people pay attention to it...) is 'traffic light' badges/wrist bands/etc - basically give people the option to pick a red, yellow or green badge, red meaning "please don't talk to me", yellow meaning "please don't talk to me unless we know each other" and green meaning "I'm feeling chatty!" (with the understanding that emergencies overrule them all, obviously!) That way, if someone wants to be part of a group ritual but has social anxiety, or fatigue problems, etc, that make talking to people they don't know difficult/raining, it cuts down on having to explain, or feel rude, etc.

Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2017, 12:33:06 pm »
Quote from: Beryl;201577

 by the sound of it for your event it might pretty much be 'you can go over there for a bit if you like',

 
Just to clarify - this might sound a bit dismissive, it's not meant to, it's better to have a defined "over there" (if only so you know to make sure nobody's still over there when the event finishes and you're packing up to leave!) than not to :)

Jasper

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2017, 01:00:33 pm »
Quote from: Sorcha;201457
The idealized antiquity thing has a cousin that I find very off-putting; namely, the "My family has been pagan/witchy/practicing the Craft for eighteen-thousand generations and therefore my thing is better than your thing and I'm going to look down on you." I ran into this early on here, and the person doing it was pretty much told to take their superiority complex and go elsewhere, but it still came across really badly.

And I can totally picture bows to no god berserker t-shirt guy. He probably has a beard and a tribal tattoo and forgets leg day at the gym and has a super fragile ego.


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Oh, yes, the scion of a long line of what-have-you inheriting the ancient family mantle of authenticity!

Sorcha

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2017, 01:35:54 pm »
Quote from: Jasper;201582
Oh, yes, the scion of a long line of what-have-you inheriting the ancient family mantle of authenticity!

 
My grandfather insisted up and down that we were related to Jesse James (even had Jameses in the family). Turns out my uncle did a bit of research and this is essentially impossible. So while old family stories sometimes do hold credence, they should always be taken with a large grain of salt, especially if one wishes to use them to feed a superiority complex.


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Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2017, 07:35:35 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;201574

For rituals, the info that I think is a useful bare minimum is:
  • When the site opens.
  • When activities begin.
  • What the basic layout is (i.e. 100m on rough ground to ritual site but there's no hill or whatever.)
  • Are children allowed? If so, are there any limits or things parents should be aware of? (open fire, nearby hazards, lots of quiet meditation planned, etc.)
  • The basic plan for the ritual.
  • That there are some seating options on rocks or what to do if you need to bring a chair.
  • About how long the planned ritual is expected to take (it's fine to say "We expect it to be X but ritual lasts as long as needed" - but there's a big difference between 'expecting 45 minutes' and 'expecting 3 hours' for many people in terms of planning)
  • Whether there are plans for food/etc. after (if you are planning to go off to a palce that serves, let people know about accessibilty there, if potluck, whatever notes about making that accessible like bringing ingredient cards/packaging)
  • When people need to leave the site (in case they need to arrange rides / mobility services / etc.)


Since you're out in the open, if there's any obvious allergens might also be helpful (nearby fields with known plants, known things like poison ivy / poison oak / nettles / other plant contact issues might be good to note as well.)


The site is well known and regularly used by us and I would expect everyone to be well aware of what it's like. It's flat from the car park - another reason for the choice of this site. There is a FB post up that gives the generally information as to where and when and about how long so that covers off most of it.

I'm not expecting any urban types; other than local participants we may have the odd walker who comes across us so I would expect everyone to know the terrain and the local plant life - we don't have the type of plants that are out to get you anywhere nearby ( I don't count nettles - they are everywhere in Britain) and it's the wrong time of year for psilocybin...

My concern is that everyone can access and can participate in a meaningful way   whilst preserving the integrity and effectiveness of the ritual.

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2017, 07:57:19 pm »
Quote from: Beryl;201577
Sounds good. One thing that might be helpful is, if possible, to email known/expected/maybe attendants (or make a FB post or whatever) and let them know that if they have any health concerns, disability, etc, they are welcome to sit if they need to, no questions asked - I know I used to feel terribly awkward doing this in group settings (not necessarily pagan ones per se, just general gatherings and whatnot).

I'm autistic, and would find Jenett's suggestion of a "what to expect" info sheet type thing incredibly helpful, too, it helps me immensely if I'm going to an unfamiliar setting to have a decent idea of an outline of how things are likely to proceed, whether it's okay to bring food (I often need to eat something at odd times to keep myself going in various ways, and I often can't eat anything that's available because of my own food issues), etc.

A quiet space (ideally not involving a long walk or confusing directions - by the sound of it for your event it might pretty much be 'you can go over there for a bit if you like', for an indoor event maybe a room a little way away from the main room would be good) is incredibly useful for anyone feeling a bit overwhelmed in various ways.

Oh! Oh! A thing I've found very useful at conventions and stuff (when people pay attention to it...) is 'traffic light' badges/wrist bands/etc - basically give people the option to pick a red, yellow or green badge, red meaning "please don't talk to me", yellow meaning "please don't talk to me unless we know each other" and green meaning "I'm feeling chatty!" (with the understanding that emergencies overrule them all, obviously!) That way, if someone wants to be part of a group ritual but has social anxiety, or fatigue problems, etc, that make talking to people they don't know difficult/raining, it cuts down on having to explain, or feel rude, etc.


Hmmm - you rather have me there. Mine is a mystery tradition and we tend to keep the pre ritual briefing short and to just before it starts - even then it's a "need to know" basis so that the mystery gradually unfolds as the ritual progresses. In fact even I probably won't know exactly what's happening until we start as a certain amount of last minute "adjustment" is sometimes necessary if the weather is worse than usual or the turnout is more or less than expected and occasionally things go completely off script if outside forces decide to play too. Would it be more stressful if the ritual deviated significantly from a "what to expect" sheet than not to have one at all?

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