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Author Topic: Family: Marriage Hypotheticals  (Read 12037 times)

ehbowen

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Marriage Hypotheticals
« on: January 03, 2017, 12:33:21 am »
The frustrating thing about discussing a topic like this is that it jumps back and forth from the specific, present case of an actual person to underlying general principles to purely hypothetical questions to the specific case of another actual person which is now years in the past to the specific case of another actual person.... Yes, I've done my share of the jumping, too, but still....

Welcome to real life, Eric.

Quote from: Jenett;200814
That wasn't in my wedding vows. Which were, unsurprisingly, not in the Christian mode, because I was already Pagan at that point, and my ex was agnostic.

And it also wasn't the way my marriage was set up. There's a lot of different ways to look at marriage. (And I might suggest that taking pure philosophising about it to a different thread might be useful, in this case, since the original poster is still trying to problem-solve a difficult situation.)

I have been divorced for over 10 years now, which is nearly twice as long as I was married. I believe getting married was a good thing at the time, but I also believe that getting out when I did was a very good thing, because it was increasingly clear to me that my ex-husband was not going to step up and be a functional partner in the relationship. Ever.

He had also at that point put my health at significant risk, put our finances at significant risk (post divorce, I paid off more debt than a year's salary at that point in my life) and I was doing the bulk of the practical, logistical *and* emotional labour for most of our marriage. (All the work, none of the good stuff, especially for the last 18 months or so of the relationship). I gave him plenty of time (and plenty of explicit "this is not working for me, can we try something else" conversations) and options.

When it was clear nothing was going to change, I didn't keep doing the same thing that was making us both miserable over and over again, and that is, frankly, pretty clearly what *my* gods wanted out of me, given how fast my new life came together once I was done.

That said, TheEnigmaticSEF, a bit more than a year ago, there was a very very long thread on emotional labour on Metafilter that a lot of people I know found very useful. The original is exceedingly long (2000+ comments) but someone also put together a more reasonable annotated and indexed PDF version.

There's a lot in there about reciprocity and what one can and should expect from a *partner* in a relationship, different things people have tried when that (very often) isn't true, and above all, a lot of people found it reassuring they weren't alone with struggling with these things.

You tell me that your gods wanted you out of that marriage. Maybe they did. Maybe even deities need to be schooled once in a while; I don't think that mine would argue that point.

But my own thoughts would be that you shouldn't take the smooth sailing as meaning an unqualified blessing upon your choice, only that, once the choice was made, Heaven respected it and smoothed the path into the new portion of your life. What might have happened if you had made the choice to deny yourself for love of your spouse and/or for love of God is still an open question. My belief is that God would have dealt with your husband. Gently (conviction and repentance) if possible; firmly (up to and including heart attack) if necessary.
 
Quote from: Jack;200815
Our vows actually didn't include til death do us part, so I guess that was fortuitous.

I mean, the rewards of leaving my abusive spouse include increased mental health, reduced suicidal ideation, reduced stress, the ability to make friendships without having them subverted by my spouse, the experience of genuine love and support from a non-abusive spouse, the ability to hold down a job without her trying to make me late or absent whenever the whim took her, and basically the capacity to enjoy all the perks of physical existence.

My gods want me to enjoy the world they are a part of and had a hand in creating. My gods recognize that I am able to give them more attention and praise when I am in a healthy place.

My gods do not want me to suffer meaninglessly in this life. They may not always have to power to prevent me from suffering, but they don't want me to stay in it, and I don't have the confidence that a God who would demand I suffer because I didn't know what healthy relationships were as a fucking teenager is a God who wants what's best for me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Jack, my God does not want you to suffer. Satan, as I understand him, does, but that's another matter. My God wants you to win!

Still, as with Jenette's case above, the choices are now years in the past. As I said to the original poster in the other thread, "Things are what they are." Start with where you are now and go on from there. And I do hope that things continue to go well for you, and I do hope that you are happy.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 01:12:48 pm by RandallS »
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2017, 01:27:54 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;200837
Jack, my God does not want you to suffer. Satan, as I understand him, does, but that's another matter. My God wants you to win!

Still, as with Jenette's case above, the choices are now years in the past. As I said to the original poster in the other thread, "Things are what they are." Start with where you are now and go on from there. And I do hope that things continue to go well for you, and I do hope that you are happy.

 
That's... nice? Thanks?
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2017, 09:04:07 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;200837
What might have happened if you had made the choice to deny yourself for love of your spouse and/or for love of God is still an open question.

 
Here is a thing:

What is also an open question is whether or not you are correct in any way.

Your beliefs, if allowed to rule, allow a horrible amount of pain and abuse in the living world to run rampant with no meaningful human recourse.

If you are right and people get a cookie when they're dead for it maybe that's okay by some standards.  (People will differ on their standards.)

But what if you are wrong?  How do you deal with the possibility that you are only promoting the harm of other human beings?  Do you even consider that possibility?

(The answer to this I suspect you will want to give is "I have faith that I'm not wrong".  That may be good enough for you, but you have not provided sufficient support to express how it should be good enough for anyone else.  In the context of discussion and debate, I feel it is worth keeping that distinction in mind.

I think that the idea that The Afterlife, a genuine unknowable, the undiscovered country from which no traveller returns, will somehow reward the living for staying in hell, only benefits those who want to create hell.  Even if true, it allows - and rewards - the propagation, perpetration, and continuance of hell.  It says straight up that living in hell does not matter, and nobody need be bothered to stop it happening.)

I am in the habit of routinely checking my moral and mystical beliefs against "If I am totally wrong about this, what are the real world consequences?"  I believe that doing so is a necessary check on constructing cloud castles with no foundations, and entirely in keeping with the principle, "Test all things; hold fast that which is good."
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Jenett

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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2017, 09:19:00 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;200837

You tell me that your gods wanted you out of that marriage. Maybe they did. Maybe even deities need to be schooled once in a while; I don't think that mine would argue that point.


I'm not clear how this point follows from the above. Can you explain the logic?

From my point of view, M'Lady, specifically, wants me to be happy and able to do her work in the world. She wants me to keep my commitments, but my marriage commitments explicitly were "as long as love lasts" rather than "until death". M'Lady does not expect martyrdom in a human relationship as a thing that is necessarily good for anyone.

(I did not have that explicit relationship with her at the time I married. but did by the time we divorced. I got married in the couple of months between deciding to become a dedicant to the group I trained with and training actually starting. The weekend after my husband moved out of the apartment in 2005 was the weekend I had my 2nd degree ritual and took on more explicit religious commitments beyond my own personal needs.)

I do not expect M'Lady to be the enforcer of What Should Be for other people. She expects me (as have other deities I have been in contact with at various points) to stand up, own my own choices, and fix my own issues. I'm an adult, I have agency in the world, I need to use it.

Point is: she was not *my* M'Lady when I married. She did not need to be 'schooled' (what a distasteful idea, frankly.) But when I asked her advice, and her help, a path opened up to allow me to be my best self, and do more in the world.

When I was looking at what to do about my relationship, one of my best friends put it this way: that I had been making myself smaller and smaller to avoid taking up space, to avoid expressing perfectly reasonable desires, to accommodate his needs at significant cost to my well-being and to that of others, and that my ex encouraged me to keep doing that.

My friend asked me if that was what I wanted, and it wasn't. I chewed on it in ritual for months, and came to the certainty that it was fundamentally incompatible with being a witch and a priestess (a path I had begun to commit to before we married.)

My life if I'd stayed married would have been worse, not only for me, but for other people. Because of the space and energy freed up by not having to manage my ex's life (again, I was doing most of the emotional and logistical heavy-lifting, and also most of the financial for the last 18 months of our marriage, which was an interesting trick because school library assistants *really* aren't paid well), I have been able to do all sorts of things.

I finished my grad degree, enabling me to have jobs where I can use my very real skills to help people with real problems, and help them get information that make their lives and tasks better. I have an amazing job now, a really unique position where I get to help people around the world with questions, where my library is one of the few places in the world that can help them.

I've been an active participant in creating events for my religious community (both Pagan Pride and Paganicon) that I know have helped connect people with important religious and social connections that improve their lives. I've taught people witchcraft, I've helped them learn tools to improve their lives, and that's amazing.

Because I got out of my marriage when I did, when my health crashed (which it probably would have anyway, in time) I could focus on taking care of myself, not have to juggle my ex pouting because I wasn't able to do things for him. (I have no illusions he would have stepped up: this is a man who, when I said "I have a migraine, I am not safe to drive" pouted about a routine drive home in light traffic and good conditions.) Being miserably horribly life-changingly unwell is bad enough: being pouted at full time while dealing with that would have destroyed me.

The question I come back to - and that I notice you haven't address really beyond vague "Well, God would have taught him eventually" is "Why does *his* life get priority?" He's the one who broke explicit agreements in our wedding vows and other commitments to each other. (Flat out broke.) He lied to me repeatedly, in ways that put me at significant risk, financially, medically, socially, and ethically.

I don't wish him *ill* (why waste the energy), but I see no reason that I should have put my life on hold for the rest of my life, fenced myself into a smaller and smaller space, because of your views of marriage. (Especially since, as noted, our marriage was not based on your premises from the start.)

I believe there is something after this life. But I also believe that if whatever is after this is about love, and compassion, and care, that getting out of my marriage respectfully, ethically, and compassionately is a thing that will be understood. (I made sure he had a place to live, had an equitable division of physical items, took on much more of my share of debt even though much of it was specifically due to him, etc.)

That relationship changed me - and in many ways, broke things in me. I've been single since, because I refuse to go into a relationship where martyring myself - the standard model for women in many societies for generations - is the expected thing. I'd much rather be on my own than do that ever again, because at least if I'm single, I'm *only* taking care of me, not me and someone else who isn't treating me like a partner, a lover, a friend, a companion. None of which my ex had done for fully half our marriage by the time we actually divorced.

I don't expect this to convince you - it's pretty clear to me it won't. But I'm writing it out in hopes it will be of help to other people, who may be struggling with very real issues that are making them miserable. Because stories of change and coming out the other side, and figuring out how to navigate through hard choices that honour our commitments as much as possible, but also honour ourselves is one of the things that matters most to me.

I believe the Gods want me to be my best self. I believe that people grow and change (and sometimes choose not to grow, and choose not to change). I believe we have agency about what we do about that, but that being static is letting entropy win, and entropy is certain death.
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2017, 10:33:47 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;200837

Welcome to real life, Eric.

 
Interesting this discussion should turn up at this point in my life. Nothing happens for no reason, right?

To explain my views I need t give you a bit of a backstory, I'm sorry if its going to be a long one.

I was married three years ago under catholic vows. We had been living together for ten years. I knew I didn't want to marry him, but how can you say no to someone after living together for ages. It would've brought more trouble than it seemed to be worth. I had resigned myself to spending the rest of my life with him cause, despite of his flaws, he was a good man, kind and gentle, ticked all of the boxes, but I did not love him the way I should. I was convinced Mr. Right had proven to be a fairytale. Or unfashionably late in any case.

My husband was an atheist, he agreed upon marrying in the catholic church cause he knew it meant a great deal to me. At that time I had not re/converted into paganism. Our vows were the usual; for the remainder of our days (literal translation out of Dutch), raise any children born in the faith of the catholic church. This last point was a bit of an interesting one as the premarital counselling (yes those are still mandatory here) proved that they still expected you to procreate. I had no intention of doing so. A fact my husband was well aware of.

After three years of marriage we realised we drifted apart. I realised I had lost myself somewhere in the past decade and vowed I would take steps to reclaim my own self. Returning to the pagan path I had found as a teenager was one of those steps. My husband was going through the same revelations, only he found out he could not live a fulfilling life without having children. We had long talks about what each of us wanted in life, in a partner. It didn't match. It never had, but it never had been an issue until now. I was at that point where I did not know if I wanted to stay or go. If I were to stay I would've done so for two reasons: my vows and (financial) stability.

But he made the decision for me. He decided that if I was not inclined to have his children he was going to find somebody else who did. I told him I could not do that and he upped and left. Just like that. A relationship of 10 years, a marriage of 3. He left. He even threw my vows in my face, saying I vowed to have children with him.

I am still reeling from events but I want him to be happy and if I can't give him that happiness I hope he'll find it with someone else. To be honest, I think that if he hadn't pressed the issue we would've drifted further apart and we would've divorced a year later anyway.

Since he left, and since I started on my path of being me, I was confirmed in my decision. I found my gods and I think I finally found Mr. Right. Well, I know I did. He was just unbearably late. Bastard.

To round things up.

I think marriage is a manmade concept. The gods can bless it, but they couldn't care less if you're married or just living together. Marriage to me is a pledge to love and take care of each other. To help each other achieve what you want from this life and support each other when life gets difficult. This goes both ways. I could not give my husband what he wanted most without giving up my own happiness.

Funny thing is. Since meeting Mr. Right my outlook on children has changed dramatically. Sometimes I think the universe is toying with me.
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Sarah

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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2017, 12:03:18 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200864


I think that the idea that The Afterlife, a genuine unknowable, the undiscovered country from which no traveller returns, will somehow reward the living for staying in hell, only benefits those who want to create hell.  Even if true, it allows - and rewards - the propagation, perpetration, and continuance of hell.  It says straight up that living in hell does not matter, and nobody need be bothered to stop it happening.)

I am in the habit of routinely checking my moral and mystical beliefs against "If I am totally wrong about this, what are the real world consequences?"  I believe that doing so is a necessary check on constructing cloud castles with no foundations, and entirely in keeping with the principle, "Test all things; hold fast that which is good."

 
I agree with everything Darkhawk said, but I also want to add that even if we had concrete proof that there were great rewards for putting up with, and expecting other people to put up with horrible, damaging things in this life, so what? I don't care. I am here now, it is my job to make there here, now, better for myself and others. And often that means leaving, or helping others leave, abusive relationships. Staying in an abusive marriage in the hope that you save the other person is good for no one. And I'm pretty sure any god worth spending any time with knows that
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2017, 06:43:24 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;200865

I had been making myself smaller and smaller to avoid taking up space, to avoid expressing perfectly reasonable desires, to accommodate his needs at significant cost to my well-being and to that of others, and that my ex encouraged me to keep doing that.


I had a similar experience to this in a mentor-student relationship. Including the growth I was able to do after getting out.

This whole discussion reminds me of a section that Starhawk wrote about in The Twelve Wild Swans: the Wicked Vow. That is, the idea that there are some commitments that should not be kept, and there are circumstances when it is just and right to break an oath. Sure, I personally consider oaths to be Important, but they are not the most important thing.
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 07:15:10 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;200891

This whole discussion reminds me of a section that Starhawk wrote about in The Twelve Wild Swans: the Wicked Vow. That is, the idea that there are some commitments that should not be kept, and there are circumstances when it is just and right to break an oath. Sure, I personally consider oaths to be Important, but they are not the most important thing.

 
I found that section very resonant too!

(Actually, probably worth noting: the way my practice defines oaths, my wedding vows were a commitment, but not an oath, because they were the legal-required stuff, no deity involved. (see also ex was agnostic and I was still working on figuring out the Pagan stuff.)

I definitely considered them commitments with religious implications on my part (because part of my witchcraft is the 'everything I do affects me and how I am in the world') but that's different for me than an oath that is made with, anchored by, or witnessed by specific gods (with specific implications if it's broken.)

My dedication and initiatory oaths, on the other hand, definitely oaths. (However, and this is notable, they all have explicit out clauses for 'if you decide this is no longer the path you can practice, here's what you need to uphold' which are pretty straightforward things to keep if you're going to go do something else, like 'don't share the oathed material with other people'. The implications get more complicated as you go up the degrees, but there's still a "People and circumstances change" flexibility.)
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 08:26:28 pm »
Note: I'm not ignoring Darkhawk and Jenette. That one's going to take a while.

Quote from: Vixen;200872
But he made the decision for me. He decided that if I was not inclined to have his children he was going to find somebody else who did. I told him I could not do that and he upped and left. Just like that. A relationship of 10 years, a marriage of 3. He left. He even threw my vows in my face, saying I vowed to have children with him.

I am still reeling from events but I want him to be happy and if I can't give him that happiness I hope he'll find it with someone else. To be honest, I think that if he hadn't pressed the issue we would've drifted further apart and we would've divorced a year later anyway.

Since he left, and since I started on my path of being me, I was confirmed in my decision. I found my gods and I think I finally found Mr. Right. Well, I know I did. He was just unbearably late. Bastard.

To round things up.

I think marriage is a manmade concept. The gods can bless it, but they couldn't care less if you're married or just living together. Marriage to me is a pledge to love and take care of each other. To help each other achieve what you want from this life and support each other when life gets difficult. This goes both ways. I could not give my husband what he wanted most without giving up my own happiness.

Funny thing is. Since meeting Mr. Right my outlook on children has changed dramatically. Sometimes I think the universe is toying with me.

 
"But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases [1 Cor. 7:15a]." Again, things are what they are. I hope and pray that your present marriage is happy and fulfilling, and that if you are blessed with children that you will have a loving and secure home.

But I don't think that marriage is a human concept. I believe it is a God-ordained and -defined concept, and that no one has the authority to redefine it. I tend to think that if Adam and Eve had never fallen, then marriage as we now know it would never have been necessary. But they did, and it is.
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Redfaery

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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 09:04:04 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200898
But I don't think that marriage is a human concept. I believe it is a God-ordained and -defined concept, and that no one has the authority to redefine it. I tend to think that if Adam and Eve had never fallen, then marriage as we now know it would never have been necessary. But they did, and it is.

So, when you say marriage is a god-ordained and defined concept... are we talking just heterosexual, neolocal monogamy? Because a lot of things have been counted as marriage throughout history, all over the world. Sometimes they even involved religion!
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2017, 10:22:00 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;200899
Sometimes they even involved religion!

 
Though "commercial transaction" is also exceedingly popular, including in the Bible.
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2017, 10:42:50 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200900
Though "commercial transaction" is also exceedingly popular, including in the Bible.

 
I'm a big fan of "diplomatic relations" personally. ;)
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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2017, 11:08:00 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;200864
Here is a thing:

What is also an open question is whether or not you are correct in any way.

 
At this point, you’re absolutely right. But just because a hypothesis has not yet been proven does not mean that it should not be stated.

Quote
Your beliefs, if allowed to rule, allow a horrible amount of pain and abuse in the living world to run rampant with no meaningful human recourse.


Umm, pain because marriages stay together? No recourse, when there are counselors for psychological abuse and laws and courts for physical abuse?

Quote
If you are right and people get a cookie when they're dead for it maybe that's okay by some standards.  (People will differ on their standards.)


A cookie beats a slap in the face with a wet fish and being told, “Life’s a bitch, sweetheart.”

Quote
But what if you are wrong?  How do you deal with the possibility that you are only promoting the harm of other human beings?  Do you even consider that possibility?


If I’m wrong then I’m wrong. I’ve gotten here by following my God; if I’m trapped I trust him to get me out. But what if the tables are turned and you are the one promoting harm?

Quote
I think that the idea that The Afterlife, a genuine unknowable, the undiscovered country from which no traveller returns...


Um, Jesus did. Or so quite a few of us are convinced.

Quote
...will somehow reward the living for staying in hell, only benefits those who want to create hell.  Even if true, it allows - and rewards - the propagation, perpetration, and continuance of hell.  It says straight up that living in hell does not matter, and nobody need be bothered to stop it happening.)


Are you saying that there should be no compensation or restitution for patiently enduring a bad situation for the love of the good? Or are you blaming my God for the very existence of bad situations in a world which [largely] rejects him?

Quote
I am in the habit of routinely checking my moral and mystical beliefs against "If I am totally wrong about this, what are the real world consequences?"  I believe that doing so is a necessary check on constructing cloud castles with no foundations, and entirely in keeping with the principle, "Test all things; hold fast that which is good."


If I am wrong then I have committed the heinous crimes of living peaceably, honoring commitments, enduring misfortune, reaching out for the good and right and highest and best, and urging others to do the same. I repent in dust and ashes.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

ehbowen

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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 11:28:34 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;200865
I'm not clear how this point follows from the above. Can you explain the logic?

 
Jenette, the point of my logic is that the objectives and aims and particulars of your situation can be viewed as various layers. There is the layer of personal fulfillment, the layer of personal protection and sustenance, the layer of commitment, and many more...including one specific one that I’ll come back to in a bit.

As long as these layers are in sync, whether positive or negative, no problem. The decision is easy. But when they are in conflict you must determine which take priority and which is your lodestar.

To briefly look at the ones I mentioned: Personal fulfillment. Yes, it’s important, especially in the long run, but it’s also often laid aside for higher priorities. I can see where a 2 am feeding might be considered something less than fun and games. Protection and support: “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” Yes, the apostle intended that for Christians, but I believe the basic principle applies to all. Commitment: Yes, it is important to honor commitments...but if you have signed a long-term lease with a tenant who refuses to pay rent and who then trashes the apartment, you evict him. I’ve evicted a couple myself over the years.

So far I think we agree. But I’ll get back to that last layer in a bit.

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Point is: she was not *my* M'Lady when I married. She did not need to be 'schooled' (what a distasteful idea, frankly.) But when I asked her advice, and her help, a path opened up to allow me to be my best self, and do more in the world.


I apologize for being disrespectful. But I have used the term in reference to my own God when considering the development of his positions over the years; he doesn’t seem to mind at all. In fact, when referring specifically to Job 38-41, I believe that he agrees he needed to be “schooled”. It’s taken several thousand years to dig out from under the horrible precedent that “might makes right,” and we’re not in the clear even yet.

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My life if I'd stayed married would have been worse, not only for me, but for other people. Because of the space and energy freed up by not having to manage my ex's life (again, I was doing most of the emotional and logistical heavy-lifting, and also most of the financial for the last 18 months of our marriage, which was an interesting trick because school library assistants *really* aren't paid well), I have been able to do all sorts of things.


Jenette, the implied condition in your statement here is, “If nothing had changed.” I believe that it could have. I certainly do believe in miracles. (Remind me to share my employment history sometime….)

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The question I come back to - and that I notice you haven't address really beyond vague "Well, God would have taught him eventually" is "Why does *his* life get priority?" He's the one who broke explicit agreements in our wedding vows and other commitments to each other. (Flat out broke.) He lied to me repeatedly, in ways that put me at significant risk, financially, medically, socially, and ethically.


It’s time for me to get back to that last layer. What, in my God’s mind, could be important enough to override all of those other layers and urge someone to stay in a tormented marriage?

It’s the simple fact that your spouse is a person who needs to be reached.

Look, it’s no secret that my God has a reputation for smiting and destruction. He’s been schooled in this area as well. Maybe I can eventually say what I think about it in the Special Topic Discussion. But at this time I feel completely confident in saying that he takes 2 Peter 3:9 absolutely literally. More than that, he sees any individual left behind—even the McVeighs and Hitlers—as a weak spot from which the evil one could someday erupt and wreak havoc.

You may say, “That’s fine. He claims to be God, let him do it.” It’s not that easy. If you recall what I posted on the old board under “Omniscience,” I’m convinced that there is a growth process. Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence is the end of the process, not the beginning. And between here and there is a lot of old fashioned hard work.

One thing that I do hope to post soon in the Special Topic Discussion is the idea of counterfeiting. In my mind, Satan doesn’t just copy electronics or valuables, he counterfeits people. That irritating spouse you see could be a copy of a copy of a copy a billion times removed of a person who is looking at echoes of you from the other direction and wondering why you are so intransigent. Who is going to bridge that divide?

I don’t want to imply that the whole load falls on you as the spouse. There is or will be backup. I do believe that, in the end, my side wins, omniscience is attained, and there is true and righteous justice for all. But how we get there is the question. And in the present, as this person’s spouse you are in the A-number-one prime position to reach out to and connect to him.

And that’s why I think that marriages are critically important and should be held together. Because that other person is a person and, for that very fact, needs to be reached. In fact, the worse a person he is, the more he needs to be reached. “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.”

But, again, it is not my aim to cause you or any other person to wallow in guilt for past choices. Start from where you are now and go from there. But for those who are going through those tough times right now, I do urge you to hang in there. I’m convinced that you really can win, and that when you do it will be worth it.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Darkhawk

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Re: Marriage Hypotheticals
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 11:33:17 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;200903
At this point, you’re absolutely right. But just because a hypothesis has not yet been proven does not mean that it should not be stated.


Stating it does not obligate anyone to consider it.  You need to take into account that other people do not care what you think your god thinks, and that includes a large number of people who actually share your religion.

If you want to discuss the matter, you need to have something more substantial than "Well I think".

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Umm, pain because marriages stay together? No recourse, when there are counselors for psychological abuse and laws and courts for physical abuse?


You're the one who said that in the end you expected your god to murder someone's spouse to make things okay.  (That's what that "heart attack" crack you made before comes across as, by the way.  Generally speaking, "It's okay, my god would have murdered your shitty ex" is not a good way to come across as having a sound argument that doesn't make people back away slowly and look for the exit.)

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A cookie beats a slap in the face with a wet fish and being told, “Life’s a bitch, sweetheart.”


And actually getting to have a life that isn't a shithole is better than both.

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If I’m wrong then I’m wrong. I’ve gotten here by following my God; if I’m trapped I trust him to get me out. But what if the tables are turned and you are the one promoting harm?


Demonstrate the harm.  Demonstrate it with something other than an appeal to "well, maybe when you're dead", because what I am concerned about is the lives of actual living people not being festering hellpits.

You're clearly okay with the festering hellpits where marriage is involved because you have a theory that something will make that suffering worth it.  You have thus far provided no reason that anyone should think your theory about dead people is more important than lives.

My postition, by the way, is: No theory is ever more important than a real life.  A moral theory that creates suffering in real people is thereby proven immoral.

Basically, if you're correct, you've presented an argument in favour of suicide.

I'm in favour of arguments promoting life worth living.

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Are you saying that there should be no compensation or restitution for patiently enduring a bad situation for the love of the good? Or are you blaming my God for the very existence of bad situations in a world which [largely] rejects him?


I'm saying that there is no evidence that this restitution exists, and I therefore have a moral obligation to assume that it does not, and act in life as a reprieve for suffering, a comfort to the troubled, and a champion of life.

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If I am wrong then I have committed the heinous crimes of living peaceably, honoring commitments, enduring misfortune, reaching out for the good and right and highest and best, and urging others to do the same. I repent in dust and ashes.

 
Those are not the relevant consequences.  Those are the consequences for you, for your own ego, not the shadow you cast upon the world.

If you are wrong that suffering through something unnecessarily is rewarded, then what you have done is create unnecessary suffering.  You may have faith in the strength of your theory sufficient to run your own life accordingly.  That's fine.  That doesn't hurt anyone else.  When you do extend that theory, the hurt that you cause, the suffering you create, that is something that must be your burden to bear at judgement.

Jesus said that the kingdom of god is already there among his followers.  Logically speaking, that suggests to me that hell, likewise, is a creation of humanity, a potential dwelling within.  The choice of suffering is hellish, it creates hell, it justifies hell, and it is in service only to those who wish suffering without consequence.

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."  -- Hillel
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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