collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Conspiracy Theories Paganism and (Marxist) Communism  (Read 5369 times)

Number 6

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2016
  • Posts: 5
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« on: November 29, 2016, 02:37:15 pm »
Hi folks,
I read a lot of valuable opinions and insights on this forum in my first 2 days, so I want your opinions of some things. Particularly regarding Marxism being styled by our Globalist overlords as a "fringe" and freedom-loving philosophy which appeals to similar demographics of people whom Pre-Abrahamic religions/mythologies appeal to, particularly when we're teenagers. For instance, as a teen I was dabbling in the ideas around "Wicca" and was a Trotskyist Marxist revolutionary, to the point of dedication that I almost lost my extremities in the cold while protesting war and extortionate taxes.

As adults, are you Marxists also/still? If so... How do you reconcile the premise of all Pre-Abrahamic cosmologies which states that "spirit" came before matter or that there's no difference between the two, with the religious edict of Marxism that says there is no "spirit" and matter created consciousness? How do you reconcile our ancient ways with a philosophy that says man is nothing but matter that simply needs to be re-arranged systematically and, if needs be, murdered/starved by the 100s of millions?

A more pressing and personal conundrum for me is the question of Ché Guevara and Cuba. As the grandson of a well-known Irish revolutionary, I remember meeting Guevara's daughter/granddaughter (too long ago to remember), as she saw the fate of these two people as the same. Now, I'm not so sure. Upon the death of Castro I learned that he was in fact a [redacted], which led me to question the old dictator's motives even closer. Although I have heard stories that Cuba in many ways has been better off under it's imposed isolation - safe from neocolonialism.

As a former Marxist, I can tell you for a fact that they like to pretend that revolutions consisted only of two factions - the proletariat and the oppressive regime. Trotsky refined this method of co-opting causes. It turns out that this was also the case in Cuba, as there was a simultaneous Marxist uprising and a general uprising against Batista. Many claims abound that Guevara, personally and by his command, murdered 1,000s of Cubans - men, women, AND children - for their betrayal of "the people's revolution" - or more accurately, HIS revolution.

But was he really a good man who reserved his viciousness for the oppressor, like we are told? Do we believe the one Bolivian soldier who said Guevara's last words were “Kill me cowards, you can kill a man not the Revolution” and that he died bravely and with no remorse, or do we believe the neocolonial CIA operatives who said he begged, cried, and tried to bargain for his life? I have reason to suspect he genuinely was a genocidal maniac and that one soldier wanted to help create a revolutionary folk tale, but I also have a problem believing the words of CIA operatives.

But in the general sense, here's my two cents on Marxism - it's scary and I'll fight against it all the way. I'm neither a Capitalist. The ancient ways of our peoples are best and don't fit into the Capitalist-Communist dichotomy. They're systems still on record today from the Irish Brehon Law and certain Native American tribes. Why can't we dream big in this world? It's like Meave said in this week's episode of Westworld - "And Bernard. If you go looking for the truth, get the whole thing. It's like a good [expletive]. Half is worse than none at all."
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 11:03:05 am by SunflowerP »

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 03:47:34 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
Particularly regarding Marxism being styled by our Globalist overlords as a "fringe" and freedom-loving philosophy which appeals to similar demographics of people whom Pre-Abrahamic religions/mythologies appeal to, particularly when we're teenagers.

 
Does it?

Must say that's 100% alien to my own experiences, so I certainly can't comment on a connection that appears to me to be nonexistent.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 06:27:27 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
Hi folks,
I read a lot of valuable opinions and insights on this forum in my first 2 days, so I want your opinions of some things. Particularly regarding Marxism being styled by our Globalist overlords as a "fringe" and freedom-loving philosophy which appeals to similar demographics of people whom Pre-Abrahamic religions/mythologies appeal to, particularly when we're teenagers. For instance, as a teen I was dabbling in the ideas around "Wicca" and was a Trotskyist Marxist revolutionary, to the point of dedication that I almost lost my extremities in the cold while protesting war and extortionate taxes.


Okay.... What? I'm not sure I understand this. While Marxism has made a bit of a comeback recently, I've never heard of it as portrayed as a 'freedom-loving' philosophy. More to the point, I don't think I've heard much about it being linked with Contemporary Polytheism, at least not here. It just doesn't crop up that much.

Quote
As adults, are you Marxists also/still? If so... How do you reconcile the premise of all Pre-Abrahamic cosmologies which states that "spirit" came before matter or that there's no difference between the two, with the religious edict of Marxism that says there is no "spirit" and matter created consciousness? How do you reconcile our ancient ways with a philosophy that says man is nothing but matter that simply needs to be re-arranged systematically and, if needs be, murdered/starved by the 100s of millions?


I question your interpretation of both history, and polytheistic belief systems.

Quote
A more pressing and personal conundrum for me is the question of Ché Guevara and Cuba. As the grandson of a well-known Irish revolutionary, I remember meeting Guevara's daughter/granddaughter (too long ago to remember), as she saw the fate of these two people as the same. Now, I'm not so sure. Upon the death of Castro I learned that he was in fact a [redacted], which led me to question the old dictator's motives even closer. Although I have heard stories that Cuba in many ways has been better off under it's imposed isolation - safe from neocolonialism.
As a former Marxist, I can tell you for a fact that they like to pretend that revolutions consisted only of two factions - the proletariat and the oppressive regime. Trotsky refined this method of co-opting causes. It turns out that this was also the case in Cuba, as there was a simultaneous Marxist uprising and a general uprising against Batista. Many claims abound that Guevara, personally and by his command, murdered 1,000s of Cubans - men, women, AND children - for their betrayal of "the people's revolution" - or more accurately, HIS revolution. But was he really a good man who reserved his viciousness for the oppressor, like we are told? Do we believe the one Bolivian soldier who said Guevara's last words were “Kill me cowards, you can kill a man not the Revolution” and that he died bravely and with no remorse, or do we believe the neocolonial CIA operatives who said he begged, cried, and tried to bargain for his life? I have reason to suspect he genuinely was a genocidal maniac and that one soldier wanted to help create a revolutionary folk tale, but I also have a problem believing the words of CIA operatives.


Err.... what? I think that the relationship between Marxism and Contemporary Paganism can be a good one, I'm not sure that it should be included in an analysis of Cuban history, due to how complicated they are, and the lack of firm a connection.

Quote
But in the general sense, here's my two cents on Marxism - it's scary and I'll fight against it all the way. I'm neither a Capitalist. The ancient ways of our peoples are best and don't fit into the Capitalist-Communist dichotomy. They're systems still on record today from the Irish Brehon Law and certain Native American tribes. Why can't we dream big in this world? It's like Meave said in this week's episode of Westworld - "And Bernard. If you go looking for the truth, get the whole thing. It's like a good [expletive]. Half is worse than none at all."

 
Our people? Who is our people?

Number 6, I don't think that looking at ancient political systems as a solution to modern problems is a bad idea. I often engage in the thought exercise myself. However, it is a fairly big issue, and is difficult to undertake without parameters.

If I may be so bold, I think you've crammed too many complex ideas into one post.

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9909
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 732
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 06:42:05 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
Hi folks....

 
A Reminder:
Our rules  generally prohibit editing after more than 2-3 minutes.  (Correcting  typos or minor mistakes is OK, but don't forget to fill in the "Reason  for Editing" box so that we know what's going on.)  This is because  after that long, several people have already read what you've written,  and they won't see the changes you make.  Because of that, they will  have difficulty following the conversation when someone replies to your  new, updated post. (Just for clarity: you significantly rephrased a passage, and the edit timestamp shows 5 minutes after the original posting.)

If you need to correct or add anything  significant after those 2-3 minutes, you should just reply to yourself  and give the correction or additional information in the new post.   Double-posting is not considered bad behaviour here, and this will help  keep everyone on the same page, so to speak.

This isn't a formal  warning, just a reminder.  No reply is necessary, but if you have  questions or need clarification, please feel free to contact a member of  staff privately.

Thanks!
Sunflower
TC Forum Staff
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9909
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 732
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 07:26:47 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
Particularly regarding Marxism being styled by our Globalist overlords as a "fringe" and freedom-loving philosophy which appeals to similar demographics of people whom Pre-Abrahamic religions/mythologies appeal to, particularly when we're teenagers.


Which 'Globalist overlords' do you have in mind here, and can you cite specific sources showing them saying that? Like Darkhawk and Yei, I've never encountered anything like that.

Quote
As adults, are you Marxists also/still?


I am not, nor have I ever been, a Marxist.

Quote
the premise of all Pre-Abrahamic cosmologies which states that "spirit" came before matter or that there's no difference between the two


Please cite sources to demonstrate that this is the case for, as you claim, all pre-Abrahamic cosmologies.

Quote
... our ancient ways...


Quote
The ancient ways of our peoples are best . They're systems still on record today from the Irish Brehon Law and certain Native American tribes.

 
Who do you mean by 'our'?

Speaking for myself, I have very few 'ancient ways' in my religious practices; they are, by and large, modern constructs.

You seem to be thinking of paganism as being more monolithic than it actually is - it's not monolithic at all; it's a wide variety of often-very-different religions, whose common ground is frequently not religious in nature, and may differ in all respects other than 'identifies as pagan'.

Quote
... and don't fit into the Capitalist-Communist dichotomy...


Despite the way that people keep trying to squeeze various social/economic/political opinions onto a one-dimensional line graph whose poles are marked 'left' and 'right', there are many more things that don't fit that dichotomy than that do, and cramming them into it is a poor fit at best, and often drastically changes the meaning associated with those poles. As, indeed, occurred when Capitalism came to be associated with 'right' and Communism with 'left'. (Two-dimensional graphs such as the Nolan chart, while a vast improvement, seem to me to still be inadequate - but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.)

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Dam

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 53
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 08:53:48 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
Hi folks

Hi. I may be able to help you with some of your questions. I will clarify by saying that I am absolutely not a Marxist and communism is radically opposed to my beliefs (I have been jokingly called Ayn Rand's wet dream before, which made me question my views (I'm not an Objectionist, darn it. Maybe an individualist and egoist)), but my philosophical views have lead to similar questions. I will only try to answer the parts I feel I can provide some insight on, as the other comments have voiced a lot of my initial thoughts.

Quote from: Number 6;199511
As adults, are you Marxists also/still? If so... How do you reconcile the premise of all Pre-Abrahamic cosmologies which states that "spirit" came before matter or that there's no difference between the two, with the religious edict of Marxism that says there is no "spirit" and matter created consciousness? How do you reconcile our ancient ways with a philosophy that says man is nothing but matter that simply needs to be re-arranged systematically and, if needs be, murdered/starved by the 100s of millions?

As I mentioned before, I am not a Marxist. I like to think I am 'rational' though, and have applied a rational approach to my own faith. I believe what my senses can perceive and interpret. This might seem to some people as a hindrance to having religious faith.

It is important to keep in mind that not all people practice a common faith in the same manner. I would say that in the case you have presented some leeway must be given. Either one will not believe ""spirit" came before matter or that there's no difference between the two" or they will not believe "man is nothing but matter that simply needs to be re-arranged systematically".

Both paganism and Marxism have been practiced in a wide variety of ways. Neither is an absolute and even if they were stated to be we as humans will find a way to make a compromise or risk having a crisis over the issue.

Quote from: Number 6;199511
But was he really a good man who reserved his viciousness for the oppressor, like we are told? Do we believe the one Bolivian soldier who said Guevara's last words were “Kill me cowards, you can kill a man not the Revolution” and that he died bravely and with no remorse, or do we believe the neocolonial CIA operatives who said he begged, cried, and tried to bargain for his life? I have reason to suspect he genuinely was a genocidal maniac and that one soldier wanted to help create a revolutionary folk tale, but I also have a problem believing the words of CIA operatives.

No, I do not believe he was a good man. In my opinion I find it downright confusing that certain politicians have taken to praising him since he passed. He is a person now departed from this world and so I will not seek to slander him, but dying does not alter what one has carried out in life, whether by their own hand or what they have inspired. I do not wish to speak ill of the dead regardless of how much I may disagree with the ideas they had. It is important to keep in mind that before the revolution there was another dictator that had better relations with the US.

You can believe whatever you want on the issue. Both could be propaganda, but either could very well be true.

Quote from: Number 6;199511
But in the general sense, here's my two cents on Marxism - it's scary and I'll fight against it all the way.

I think Marxism has noble goals, but like all political ideologies made by mankind it is highly impractical and can be distorted with ease.

Quote from: Number 6;199511
I'm neither a Capitalist. The ancient ways of our peoples are best and don't fit into the Capitalist-Communist dichotomy.

Why are they best, out of curiosity? How do you measure how 'good' the 'ancient ways' are against capitalism/communism?

Cheers. :)

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 09:12:37 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
as a teen I was dabbling in the ideas around "Wicca" and was a Trotskyist Marxist revolutionary, to the point of dedication that I almost lost my extremities in the cold while protesting war and extortionate taxes
I'm so sorry that happened to you :( It comes off to me as uncommon, though. I can't cite any survey for the proper statistics, but the stereotype that I've formed is that most fledgling neo-Wiccans are very young middle class people who quickly get this idea that more than half of witchcraft is shopping for stuff.  

Quote
As adults, are you Marxists also/still?

I grew up with the understanding that Marx was a bad person, and also that money flows is a systemically unfair way, and upperclass snubbing of the lowerclasses is a bad thing. Economic injustice is, I believe, an important dialogue that the whole world that's subject to such injustice ought to be brainstorming/enacting solutions to it...and, to join in on that, it looks as though I really ought to start reading up on Marx.

Quote
How do you reconcile the premise of all Pre-Abrahamic cosmologies which states that "spirit" came before matter or that there's no difference between the two, with the religious edict of Marxism that says there is no "spirit" and matter created consciousness? How do you reconcile our ancient ways with a philosophy that says man is nothing but matter that simply needs to be re-arranged systematically and, if needs be, murdered/starved by the 100s of millions?

I can source a notion extracted from a larger and more complex body of text. I like fiction writing, for instance. My mother's favorite book when she was in high school was Atlas Shrugged, so when I was looking to read up on fiction writing as a craft, Ayn Rand's transcribed lectures caught my interest because I'd heard that author's name before.

And on at least one point, I very much agreed, and in most others I vehemently disagreed. To imbue morality in a work of fiction, for instance: Rand gave the example of a well-dressed person slipping on a banana peel. It would be an unethical text if it expressed a way to cut down on somebody's virtue or personhood (they earned that outfit and just wanted to enjoy life and look nice; why punish them with a banana peel?) but it would be an ethical text if it expressed a way to cut down on somebody's pompousness (the well-dressed person was pretentious, abused their position of power). That was actually my introduction to the inherent responsibility of a text being ethical, and while it's more complicated than that as I've textwalled elsewhere...I'd still say that was a good idea, and I'd keep this good idea up as much as I can.

However, so much of Rand's other ideas about the writing craft and even ethical philosophy itself was horribly faulty. I did eventually get around to reading Atlas Shrugged to read what sort of writing comes out of the mind and hands of a master of the craft, like this powerhouse of philosophical text that shaped a generation of a nation and...ermm. It. Umm. So—I took the long way of saying, I keep what I like, make sure I say where I got it from when appropriate, and why I loathe and hate the rest of the source material where applies.

Because the author is not the idea, and the idea is often part-without-parcel of an entire text or culture. Who's holding the pen and in what context the idea sprung out of is important to consider, of course. But I'd say it depends, most of all, on where and how a single idea is applied.

I've got a chip on my shoulder about Christianity, for another example, how so many people in my life have justified abuse in religious terms. I don't like the theological attitude towards sexuality expressed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-15 and it even imbues to my interpretation some massive disingenuousness to Song of Songs/Solomon. That doesn't mean I'll reject critical thinking and discernment just because that's in the Bible, too. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-21). Or that I won't have any truck with self-respect or justice, just because that's mentioned in the Bible, too. (Proverbs 21:3).

Quote
How do you reconcile our ancient ways with a philosophy that says man is nothing but matter that simply needs to be re-arranged systematically and, if needs be, murdered/starved by the 100s of millions?

That "matter created consciousness" is one such notion that I find applicable to my own experiences with psychiatric medication, for instance. It's not so applicable if I'm conceiving of consciousness as morality and ethics, or the afterlife. The limitations of my physical brain and body vanish in a puff of smoke just because so-and-so line of reasoning doesn't have much to do with it, I am still aware of my belief that matter creates my consciousness, it's just that such a belief has limits of applicability, and I also believe that some poetic metaphors are better for reasoning/expressing some things.

All pre-Abrahamic ancient ways and cosmology...are not internally reconciled as a given, though. We are post-Abrahamic, post-globalized, information age people who have access to all these paganisms, and I think we could very well project psychologically some imagined unification and cohesiveness (that is not necessarily innate).

Maybe different but unrelated is this idea I had recently about how every era is a remarkably different society, even if it occupies the same geographic region, but current history represents those all under as a single idea (the present 'natural' sovereignty, the name of a country as we know it today.) (Someone else made a similar post about that way back, I can't find it anymore, about how there are no pure myths because Egyptian mythology was different before and after the conquest of Nubia, and during a lot of other turning points, so it's dodgy to say something so simply like "in Egyptian mythology..." but people are going to do it anyway so it seems everyone else will just know what a speaker means, until they don't, so they'll ask or run it through a search engine, which usually works.)

Quote
It turns out that this was also the case in Cuba, as there was a simultaneous Marxist uprising and a general uprising against Batista. Many claims abound that Guevara, personally and by his command, murdered 1,000s of Cubans - men, women, AND children - for their betrayal of "the people's revolution" - or more accurately, HIS revolution.

Oftentimes, that's how it goes. The attitude that the only time something deplorable is fair and fine is when the person speaking wants to do it, accompanies somebody's rise to power. Perfectly ordinary and otherwise pleasant people often don't notice when we each take this attitude ourselves, with small and ordinary things in our lives. It's just that it becomes damaging with an unchecked rise to power.

Quote
But was he really a good man who reserved his viciousness for the oppressor, like we are told? Do we believe the one Bolivian soldier who said Guevara's last words were “Kill me cowards, you can kill a man not the Revolution” and that he died bravely and with no remorse, or do we believe the neocolonial CIA operatives who said he begged, cried, and tried to bargain for his life? I have reason to suspect he genuinely was a genocidal maniac and that one soldier wanted to help create a revolutionary folk tale, but I also have a problem believing the words of CIA operatives.

We all have our reasoning. We all have our reasons. It's good to consider motives, and historical revisionism is not a good thing, but...sometimes we've got to accept that we'll never know. Society isn't a physical science. Sometimes, people get away with lies or errors, even need it (such as with the development of legends.)

Quote
Why can't we dream big in this world?

(I want that silk-screened on a T-shirt.)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 09:13:50 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Megatherium

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 68
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Heathen(ish)
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 11:38:43 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199511
Hi folks...

 
I don't think there is anything wrong with exploring how a religious sensibility rooted in pre/non-Abrahmic religious traditions interacts with modern politics.

However, from my perspective at least, the religious traditions that predominantly influence me, (pre-Christian Germanic) developed in a social/political/economic context so far removed from modern societies that I don't really see any meaningful connection between those traditions and any modern political or economic ideology.

Personally, I think capitalism is great at generating wealth and terrible at allocating that wealth appropriately, so it needs to be managed/guided by a sensible government that responds effectively to the needs of a well-informed and engaged populace. There have been some times and places when Marxism has made a worthy contribution to a reasonable balance between the state, markets, and people, and times and places when it has gone utterly batshit insane and created far worse problems than the ones it was trying to solve. So for me, it's utility has depended heavily on the context in which it was being used. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you.

As far as Marxism's influence on philosophy/metaphysics goes, I think it bears a striking resemblance in some key areas to Christianity (as do some modern ideas of technological progress). The idea of a linear timeframe (Creation-Apocalypse, Development of Class struggle, scientific progress) which moves towards a type of salvation (Heaven/Worker's Paradise/"The Singularity" or what have you) appears to have become so deeply embedded in Western thought that it reappears in a variety of historical narratives.

I don't think I can really fairly evaluate the utility of such a narrative as I have been trying to develop an understanding of the world which does not include such ideas, partly as a way to better understand historical Heathen cultures, and partly because the idea of a worldview that does not require linear time and/or a form of salvation is attractive to me precisely because it is so alien to what has become the main course of Western thought.
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
-George W. Bush

Number 6

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2016
  • Posts: 5
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 02:49:44 pm »
Note: Sorry guys, this is an uber long one, but I do enjoy the different levels of engagement in this thread. I've got something for everybody, separated by dashed lines, in order of your postings.

Quote from: Darkhawk;199513
Does it?

Must say that's 100% alien to my own experiences, so I certainly can't comment on a connection that appears to me to be nonexistent.

I have to take a few steps back here and take cross-Atlantic cultural differences into account. For a variety of reasons Europe is more open to Marxist and Socialist thought, with exception to ex-Soviet states. You guys in the United States don't share the West European fascination with Socialism, but I'm not entirely wrong, as the first popular interest in pre-Christian identity before this current one came from the hippie culture. They were most definitely Marxist.

---------------

Quote from: Yei;199524
I question your interpretation of both history, and polytheistic belief systems.

We'll get to my interpretation of "polytheistic systems" later, but are you referring to my observation that Communism murdered in excess of 100,000,000 people? I'm not about to go using Google on your behalf or write a whole thesis, because we're talking about several countries and historical events spanning 70 years. While we were busy fighting Hitler we were also being told that Joseph Stalin was one of the greatest men to have ever existed, so Marxism world-wide got a free pass as a result. The vast crimes of these regimes still are not mainstream knowledge or taught in history classes.
 
Quote from: Yei;199524
Our people? Who is our people?

I believe I gave context to my use of "our" earlier in that paragraph. I'm going to go ahead and assume that question to be a challenge to my suggesting there might be some commonality between pre-Abrahamic cultures. It's not an assumption or some far-fetched idea. Some academics base their whole careers around clarifying their uncanny similarities. My favourite subject is how ancient law systems have similar structures. If you'll excuse the layout being messed up on this site, I reprinted How the Infidels Can Save Civilization by James W. Zion which focuses on the Brehon-Native American connection.

Quote from: Yei;199524
If I may be so bold, I think you've crammed too many complex ideas into one post.

Yeah, I know. I knew I made an awful mistake when I looked at it and saw it was 5 paragraphs long. But hey, we worked it out! Right?

---------------------------

Quote from: SunflowerP;199527
Which 'Globalist overlords' do you have in mind here, and can you cite specific sources showing them saying that? Like Darkhawk and Yei, I've never encountered anything like that.

This is an expansive subject and perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. I'll keep it short and you can verify for yourself what I say is true. The Rothschild family. Big supporters of "the cause". One great example is their "support" of Feminism, specifically supporting Marxist Feminists, both activists and scholars. The real world result of that is almost every piece of Feminist literature and almost every Feminist group/organisation is now Marxist. You may have heard the term "Cultural Marxism" thrown around and rightly ridiculed as it's a misnomer. It refers to a branch of Marxism that isn't looking for an overt revolution and establishment of a Socialist state and instead seeks to change the way we think about ourselves and our culture so that Socialism is an inevitability. I know this because I was one of them and read their literature, which is a shame as it sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to anyone who hasn't, especially when you add the well-documented financial support and publicity the theory received. I'll leave you to verify my claims on your own since I'm not into digging up material due to the 99% chance I'll just be labeled as a Right Wing Conspiracy Theorist and dismissed.

Quote from: SunflowerP;199527
Please cite sources to demonstrate that this is the case for, as you claim, all pre-Abrahamic cosmologies.

I don't have to. The idea there was spirit and matter as two distinct realities didn't exist in the first place until Zarathustra and expanded upon by Descartes. Until Zarathustra's mental illness spread to Europe, Africa, and America, there was no language to make that distinction with. The lack of that delusion is my citation.

Quote from: SunflowerP;199527
Who do you mean by 'our'?

I've covered this with Yei above. Firstly I was speaking of "our" in the context of "my." Sorry to be so vague. Secondly, your ancestors did have similar ways to my own. You and your ancestors belong to one another.

I mean no disrespect to your personal path and don't seek to change that, but this resource you sent me to isn't really up to speed with what we do know about "pagan" systems. We've had 200-plus years now to study and compare our pre-Abrahamic histories and they had very definite ideologies, some of which were held in common. For example, the Irish "creation myth" was reconstructed with the help of these commonalities. Had to link you to the Wayback Machine as they appear to have taken this off their site.

Maybe it's not the consensus around here that ancient peoples spoke to each other and influenced each other, but I'm not here to tell people to think differently. So don't worry. Just don't put me on blast for my opinion.

--------------

Quote from: Dam;199529
Both paganism and Marxism have been practiced in a wide variety of ways. Neither is an absolute and even if they were stated to be we as humans will find a way to make a compromise or risk having a crisis over the issue.

You're absolutely correct. It's not healthy, though. While we can't get our story straight over here, behind the walls of Rome, the rest of the world burns for our apathy and self-indulgence. I have very little respect for people who don't know what they believe, unless they're 25 or younger. It's extended infantilism.

Quote from: Dam;199529
Why are they best, out of curiosity? How do you measure how 'good' the 'ancient ways' are against capitalism/communism?

I know ideations of commonality amoung ancient people is frowned upon around here, but most pre-Abrahamic social systems (European and American, for this conversation) were based on the consciousness of the individual as apposed to an external structure with civil servants and police. The Law was a living understanding that we all grew up understanding, so all we needed were arbitrators we trusted to be objective. Those arbitrators had precedence over the Sovereigns (kings, chiefs, etc) as a natural expectation, sometimes charged with choosing the Sovereign. If the Sovereigns were to ever enact power over the arbitrators (over the Law itself), we would know we live in a dictatorship and demand a new chief. Most of these societies didn't have the death penalty or prisons and operated upon a compensation system (i.e. two cows for a stolen cow). All there was was the Law and the Chief, who was the embodiment of the Law and the people he/she served. Everything else in terms of social structure was a result of people working things out for themselves.
Essentially, a Libertarian paradise. Libertarians talk today of a system like this and try to convince people that it's possible, yet I find it strange they don't point people to the fact that it had been done before and stood for countless 1,000s of years before our current system of Law gradually eroded it through the sword and forced assimilation.

--------------

Quote from: Faemon;199530
Oftentimes, that's how it goes. The attitude that the only time something deplorable is fair and fine is when the person speaking wants to do it, accompanies somebody's rise to power. Perfectly ordinary and otherwise pleasant people often don't notice when we each take this attitude ourselves, with small and ordinary things in our lives. It's just that it becomes damaging with an unchecked rise to power.

I really enjoyed reading your post, Faemon, as I enjoy reading all of your thoughts on this forum. I particularly like and agree with what I quoted above. People regularly forget their potential to be dangerous, and it only gets worse when they get together to be dangerous.

Quote from: Faemon;199530
All pre-Abrahamic ancient ways and cosmology...are not internally reconciled as a given, though. We are post-Abrahamic, post-globalized, information age people who have access to all these paganisms, and I think we could very well project psychologically some imagined unification and cohesiveness (that is not necessarily innate).

That's definitely a factor, and thanks for coming out and bluntly saying what others here had trouble formulating.
Every day we're digging things out of the ground and translating scriptures and glyphs. The story isn't finished yet, and the more we learn, the more physical evidence we have that ancient cultures seeded each other. As I said before, we have to realise we just came out of a dark age of conditioning that told us these people were stupid apes living in caves who couldn't get a simple boat together or couldn't simply walk across a landbridge with conscious intent. A reassessment of our myths of history is in order.

--------

Quote from: Megatherium;199531
...............

:thup:
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 02:51:52 pm by Number 6 »

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 03:33:35 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199620
Note: Sorry guys, this is an uber long one, but I do enjoy the different levels of engagement in this thread. I've got something for everybody, separated by dashed lines, in order of your postings.


Just a comment from a staff position:
 
Generally speaking, it is much clearer and easier to reply to each individual post as an individual, rather than make a giant mess and quoting multiple posts.  I do see that you have gone to the extra effort to get the quoted text in, and though I haven't explicitly checked your trackbacks, that at least was well done.  But really, you don't need to go to that level of work, just respond to individual posts.  ;)  It makes the conversation clearer and the threads of communication less muddled, and it's much less work for you.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 04:29:44 pm »
Quote from: Number 6;199620

This is an expansive subject and perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. I'll keep it short and you can verify for yourself what I say is true. The Rothschild family. Big supporters of "the cause". One great example is their "support" of Feminism, specifically supporting Marxist Feminists, both activists and scholars. The real world result of that is almost every piece of Feminist literature and almost every Feminist group/organisation is now Marxist. You may have heard the term "Cultural Marxism" thrown around and rightly ridiculed as it's a misnomer. It refers to a branch of Marxism that isn't looking for an overt revolution and establishment of a Socialist state and instead seeks to change the way we think about ourselves and our culture so that Socialism is an inevitability. I know this because I was one of them and read their literature, which is a shame as it sounds like a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to anyone who hasn't, especially when you add the well-documented financial support and publicity the theory received. I'll leave you to verify my claims on your own since I'm not into digging up material due to the 99% chance I'll just be labeled as a Right Wing Conspiracy Theorist and dismissed.

 
Hmm. Rothschilds and Frankfurt school.  This is, at the very least, a pretty direct mirror with some traditional anti semitic conspiracy theories.  And raises further questions when combined with "nativism" and some stuff that is at least potentially third positionism.

I'm not, at this stage, saying that this is definitely where you're coming from. But I would appreciate you clarifying what you believe on this.  (Note: You really don't need to worry about getting banned on here.  This site doesn't ban people for their ideological position).
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 04:33:11 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;199627
Hmm. Rothschilds and Frankfurt school.  This is, at the very least, a pretty direct mirror with some traditional anti semitic conspiracy theories.  And raises further questions when combined with "nativism" and some stuff that is at least potentially third positionism.

I'm not, at this stage, saying that this is definitely where you're coming from. But I would appreciate you clarifying what you believe on this.  (Note: You really don't need to worry about getting banned on here.  This site doesn't ban people for their ideological position).

 
Additional question. Where is your username from?
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2016, 04:52:48 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;199628
Additional question. Where is your username from?

 
I'll be surprised if the answer isn't "The Prisoner".
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

MadZealot

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Location: So Cal
  • Posts: 2594
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 339
  • Eye yam tu papi.
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Founder of the Church of No Pants.
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 06:30:11 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;199630
I'll be surprised if the answer isn't "The Prisoner".

I was thinking blonde-Cylon-in-a-red dress.  But then I've got BSG in the player right now...  

Now, to make this post more topically relevant, the chrome toasters were Abrahamic space-Marxists.  Totally.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 06:31:02 pm by MadZealot »
You have my sword
And my shield
And my... um... slacks.

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and (Marxist) Communism
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2016, 08:52:59 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;199633
I was thinking blonde-Cylon-in-a-red dress.

That was my first thought, too. Then I saw the avatar and guessed it was old Doctor Who or something. Hah, did I miss some very important reference again? :P
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
13 Replies
2530 Views
Last post December 13, 2012, 09:58:13 am
by Sophia C
0 Replies
10731 Views
Last post August 20, 2013, 08:41:47 pm
by RandallS
6 Replies
1189 Views
Last post November 17, 2013, 12:44:53 pm
by DavidMcCann
26 Replies
5399 Views
Last post October 29, 2014, 07:02:46 pm
by Kyndyl
21 Replies
5864 Views
Last post May 19, 2016, 06:11:17 pm
by RecycledBenedict

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 217
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal