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Author Topic: Meditation makes no sense.  (Read 3043 times)

Eevee

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Meditation makes no sense.
« on: November 20, 2016, 09:41:01 am »
Ok so. Coming from a very realistic kind of approach on spirituality. Any tips on doing a visualizing meditation without feeling like an idiot?
I read/heard lots of guided meditation which says things like "what do you see?" "what is 'X' telling you?" "notice what it looks like" "what is your surrounding?"

Like.... it's a visualization, over active imagination. I see simply what I make myself see, and I'm told what I'd naturally tell myself - I'm just viewing it in the fantasy of my imagination. How can I learn anything from that? How can I contact any spirits like that? How can spontaneous and eye opening things happen?
It doesn't make any sense to me.

I've tried it before and I felt pretty bloody ridiculous. Am I doing it wrong or what?
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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2016, 12:42:21 pm »
Quote from: Eevee;199245
Ok so. Coming from a very realistic kind of approach on spirituality. Any tips on doing a visualizing meditation without feeling like an idiot?
I read/heard lots of guided meditation which says things like "what do you see?" "what is 'X' telling you?" "notice what it looks like" "what is your surrounding?"

Like.... it's a visualization, over active imagination. I see simply what I make myself see, and I'm told what I'd naturally tell myself - I'm just viewing it in the fantasy of my imagination. How can I learn anything from that? How can I contact any spirits like that? How can spontaneous and eye opening things happen?
It doesn't make any sense to me.

I've tried it before and I felt pretty bloody ridiculous. Am I doing it wrong or what?

 
Welcome to magic, where you will constantly feel bloody ridiculous.

So, yes - when you sit down and listen to a guided meditation, you're using your imagination. You are sitting on your butt taking a journey inside your own mind. This initially sounds pretty useless, but honestly it really does yield results over time. (You're going to hear me say "over time" a lot.)

The majority of people don't see spirit with their physical eyes. Most don't hear them as disembodied voices in their ears. Most magic practitioners and pagans communicate with gods and spirits through more subtle means - 'inner' voices, strong feelings, dreams, visions.

Doing guided meditations is a way to develop those subtle senses. It teaches you your own inner landscape and teaches you to trust the forces within and without you, and to develop an intuitive sense. It also gives you practice with visualization, which is just generally a good skill to have.

Chances are you will not have an eye opening experience from doing a couple of guided meditations, especially if you spend half of it thinking "this is so stupid." So much of magic and spirit work is practice. You may have to do a dozen guided meditations and keep track of what happens in each (for the love of everything, keep a journal of this stuff) before you start to a) see patterns emerging in your work and b) really feel a sense of something outside of yourself. You may have to do sitting meditation as well, or take up another complementary mental and spiritual practice.

It can make you feel really silly, and it can be almost painfully boring. That just comes with the territory. Like learning any new skill, you just gotta work through those parts.

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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2016, 03:44:04 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;199247
Welcome to magic, where you will constantly feel bloody ridiculous.


So much "What Mama Fortuna" said.

A couple of other thoughts:

1) Learning how to do a new thing *does* often feel weird or silly or odd. If you're feeling those things, it's good to double check what you're doing, why you're doing it, and what you think the results are supposed to be. But it's also a good time to tell yourself that trying new stuff sometimes feels like this, and give it a chance, as long as you aren't having any dangerous side-effects from it or things that are significantly disruptive to your life.

In a lot of cases, that space of 'this feels really weird' is actually where our greatest growth and learning takes place, so ducking that feeling can really restrict your options long-term. (More in an article on my website about feeling silly with some ideas that might help with processing what's going on.)

2) There are tons of different kinds of guided meditations, and it's quite common and normal to have some kinds that work pretty well for you, some kinds that work, but not easily, and some kinds that don't work well at all. How much it makes sense to push on doing the ones that don't work for you depends a lot on your long-term goals and the context.

I'm someone who has a very hard time with visuals in meditations (and also coherent conversations with beings in meditations) so the kinds of stuff Eevee describes are the kind of meditations I have the most trouble with. However, I learned how to do them and get something from them because it was part of the requirements for my witchcraft training, and even though I prefer somewhat different modes, those skills have turned out to be really useful a lot of times.

My usual preference, however, is for the kind of guided meditation where there's a situation, and you have time to reflect on it, and there may or may not be conversations with deities or other beings, but that is not the whole point of the thing (because if that's the whole point, I have at least a one in two chance of it being not the best use of my time.) Something like the meditation on my article about visualisation and meditation for example.

(That meditation is also an example of one that deliberately builds in senses beyond sight and conversation - there's a lot of tactile and smell data, and sounds that are not people talking to you. It's one I've run a number of times with people with a range of meditation skills, and people usually get something out of it, even if the whole thing isn't an amazing experience for it, which - as Mama Fortuna says, isn't a thing to rely on anyway.)

Anyway. As noted, there are tons of reasons for meditation and ways to do it : knowing why you're picking a given method, and being clear about your goals will help a lot in helping figure out what to do.
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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2016, 04:01:18 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;199248
So much "What Mama Fortuna" said.



As someone who tries to do meditation daily and is still very much a novice, I'm loving both your and Mama Fortuna's posts, actually.

It also sparked a crazy idea: With all the communication technology at our fingertips, might it not be possible to pick a time and try a group video chat that would consist of one of you two leading us in a meditation session?
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missgraceless

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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2016, 04:49:20 pm »
Quote from: Altair;199249
As someone who tries to do meditation daily and is still very much a novice, I'm loving both your and Mama Fortuna's posts, actually.

It also sparked a crazy idea: With all the communication technology at our fingertips, might it not be possible to pick a time and try a group video chat that would consist of one of you two leading us in a meditation session?
I second Altair's idea one freaking hundred percent.

And my two cents on guided meditation: I used to do the basic "sit still and clear your mind" type when I was a teen just starting out with paganism, and while it did help calm my anxiety (I need to start that again, actually) I didn't really feel like it was doing anything spiritually. I too felt really silly until I got into the swing of it (which took several months of almost daily practice)

I've tried a few guided meditations over the years but the one that stuck out the most was in 2012 or so with my witchy mama during her witchcraft training. I've never been good at intentional visualisation (vs just daydreaming) but this one included a World's tree and upper/underworld*. There I met Quan Yin in the underworld and an Artemis/Diana archetype in the upper world.

Sadly I've never been able to see anything like that again with any guided meditations other than that one, and I don't have access to the same author (?).

My point is, don't give up just yet. Maybe the person doing the guided meditations isn't the right one for you, or it's just too vague. The one I did had a very specific goal in mind, finding our World's tree. Just keep swimming, as Dory would say.

*It wasn't the upper world and underworld in the sense of heaven/hell or even anything to do with death, more like the attic and basement, but they were both forests. The World's tree in my vision was basically just a staircase inside a giant willow tree.
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Faemon

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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2016, 06:28:17 pm »
Quote from: Eevee;199245
I see simply what I make myself see, and I'm told what I'd naturally tell myself - I'm just viewing it in the fantasy of my imagination. How can I learn anything from that? How can I contact any spirits like that? How can spontaneous and eye opening things happen? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I've tried it before and I felt pretty bloody ridiculous. Am I doing it wrong or what?

I used to think the same way. Whenever someone would say something like "imagine that you're enveloped in a white light of protection, there, you're doing magic!" I kept thinking that it can't be that simple. If some malicious otherworldly being wanted to hijack my body without my consent, imaginary white light probably wouldn't stop them.

So, I stopped dabbling in that for a time. Which was fine. It didn't suit me, at that time.

I did start on this tutorial that held that if you have to imagine something, it's not metaphysically real. However, the mental exercises contained did use imagination, only they were tactile rather than visual. And which could be effective, for instance in initiating out-of-body experiences, first go the tactile imagination and then, when you figure out how to give up without giving up (emotional imagination?), that generates a very intense experience that's best to stay out of control for at least at first. Achieving this did not, as claimed, improve my psychic senses all that much. I still can't guess the suit or number of a card at my fingertips, or left face-up on top of a bookshelf. Being being out of body feels like swimming through glue. (Dreams, at least my dreams, are better about imitating my waking life physics and giving me a physical body.)

After a while exploring that avenue, it was convincing, given my previous attitude towards the whole thing...but, it was fairly useless.

It did get me to develop the skill of letting weird stuff happen while standing on a node of detachment and calm. I'd explored lucid dreaming, the first time by accident doing those focus meditations, and at least the way I would lucid dream, the dream world would act undomesticated. So: I'm asleep, I remember enough of my waking life to know that the world around me is not physical, I see a world around me: clouds that become giant flying terrier dogs, trees growing cellophane candy-wrapper leaves with goldfish bowl fruit, mosquito nets made out of stars, dream-stuff like that I can't imagine but if it's not in anybody else's head then I've got to say that it's all in mine.

While dreaming, it's supposed to happen naturally, and in lucid dreaming it's my waking life mind being stubborn about memory and logic. Usually, people with visual dreams see strange things in those dreams, because that's the way our mind consolidates memories. (Although, so many of those visuals are not from waking life memories: maybe I've seen candy wrappers, and of course I've seen leaves on trees, but how does it help to mix the two up? Whatever. Right?)

In meditations, I've found that it's the other way around. Your waking life memory and logic is present by default. In a way, you're inviting the dreaming mindset to come in. That means, to some degree, losing lucidity: relaxing the deliberation.

This is something I'd had to learn from lucid dreaming, too. At first I thought that as soon as I had a firm handle on my "stubborn" waking life memory and reasoning, then I could use overactive imagination to manipulate the dream world around me. Unfortunately, my dream world was having none of it, and if I tried too hard, it would send me horrible things that I certainly didn't imagine: Margaret Atwood's handmaidens bleeding from sawed-off limbs, monks with wax faces melting off, unpleasant things like that.

When I would gain lucidity, after those episodes, what I learned to do was let the dream-world be the way it is before I change it. Then actually changing it went so much more easily, at which point I usually wouldn't, because I would have appreciated the dream world the way it was.

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How can spontaneous and eye opening things happen?

Active imagination is basically the opposite of lucid dreaming. You can relax your deliberation a little bit, as opposed to lucid dreaming where the thing is to keep your deliberation and lucidity.

Quote
How can I learn anything from that?


Interpretation. For instance, I'd gone through life thinking that I only wanted to fit in, or become competent enough to be invisible. I didn't have the imagination to do anything else, and I didn't have the energy or confidence to do very much at all, so structure would at least let me accomplish a bare minimum. I'd read a book like Demick's Nothing To Envy and wish I'd lived there, because even when people suffer famine, they're given purpose.

What the appearance of Atwood's limbless handmaids told me...was that I was actually taking damage. It certainly didn't feel as though I was lying to myself, but there was a lot of individualism that I was repressing (because I'd taken it as a given that anything of me that was contrary to what anybody else said was bad, and I didn't want to be a bad person.) And sometimes that automatic repression is how we sustain a friendly and civil community...but other times, like in my case, it got pretty bad emotionally. And it came up in dreams, in gory images like that.

Quote
How can I contact any spirits like that?

You might meet someone in there. Instead of putting words in their mouth, try relinquishing control and letting them speak.

I like this blog post that details what the blogger calls an "imaginary interface" which is how corporeal people from the outside tend to press in up against our own attitudes, so spirits could very well operate the same way. Most autonomous beings will surprise us, including ourselves (bleeding handmaids? Did not see that coming).

But the surprise is just the first step. The rest is interpretation. If you have too much control to be surprised, that's fair and fine, if you're "doing it wrong" maybe it's not the right thing for you, or maybe even that you'll find a way to do it your way.

Quote from: Altair;199249
With all the communication technology at our fingertips, might it not be possible to pick a time and try a group video chat that would consist of one of you two leading us in a meditation session?

I'm interested in this, too!

Quote from: missgraceless;199250
I've never been good at intentional visualisation (vs just daydreaming) but this one included a World's tree and upper/underworld (...) It wasn't the upper world and underworld in the sense of heaven/hell or even anything to do with death, more like the attic and basement, but they were both forests. The World's tree in my vision was basically just a staircase inside a giant willow tree. (...) There I met Quan Yin in the underworld and an Artemis/Diana archetype in the upper world.

Sadly I've never been able to see anything like that again with any guided meditations other than that one, and I don't have access to the same author (?).

My point is, don't give up just yet. Maybe the person doing the guided meditations isn't the right one for you, or it's just too vague. The one I did had a very specific goal in mind, finding our World's tree. Just keep swimming, as Dory would say.

I concur, the experiences brought about can be profoundly meaningful, but sometimes the method doesn't work in general, or even what worked in general stopped working. (I find that I can't relax enough to initiate out-of-body experiences anymore, so visualization meditations became the way for me, or for a while it was automatic writing.)
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Starlight

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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2016, 08:50:32 pm »
Quote from: Eevee;199245
Ok so. Coming from a very realistic kind of approach on spirituality. Any tips on doing a visualizing meditation without feeling like an idiot?
I read/heard lots of guided meditation which says things like "what do you see?" "what is 'X' telling you?" "notice what it looks like" "what is your surrounding?"

Like.... it's a visualization, over active imagination. I see simply what I make myself see, and I'm told what I'd naturally tell myself - I'm just viewing it in the fantasy of my imagination. How can I learn anything from that? How can I contact any spirits like that? How can spontaneous and eye opening things happen?
It doesn't make any sense to me.

I've tried it before and I felt pretty bloody ridiculous. Am I doing it wrong or what?


There is a book that you might find worthwhile reading. It's "Inner Work" by Robert Johnson (https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Work-Dreams-Imagination-Personal/dp/0062504312) and it deals with techniques to work with active imagination and dreams. It answers the question, "Am I just making all this up?" :)
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Eevee

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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2016, 12:15:05 am »
Quote from: Starlight;199259
There is a book that you might find worthwhile reading. It's "Inner Work" by Robert Johnson (https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Work-Dreams-Imagination-Personal/dp/0062504312) and it deals with techniques to work with active imagination and dreams. It answers the question, "Am I just making all this up?" :)

Yes! I might need this! Thank you :D

And thanks everyone!
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Sobekemiti

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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2016, 09:30:47 am »
Quote from: Eevee;199245
Ok so. Coming from a very realistic kind of approach on spirituality. Any tips on doing a visualizing meditation without feeling like an idiot?
I read/heard lots of guided meditation which says things like "what do you see?" "what is 'X' telling you?" "notice what it looks like" "what is your surrounding?"

Like.... it's a visualization, over active imagination. I see simply what I make myself see, and I'm told what I'd naturally tell myself - I'm just viewing it in the fantasy of my imagination. How can I learn anything from that? How can I contact any spirits like that? How can spontaneous and eye opening things happen?
It doesn't make any sense to me.

I've tried it before and I felt pretty bloody ridiculous. Am I doing it wrong or what?

 
Honestly, I could never get visualisation meditation to work for me for many, many years. I am just abjectly terrible at imagining objects in and of themselves, like how you're meant to hold the image of an apple in your mind and somehow practicing this is easier than doing guided meditations or that more scenic visualisation stuff first. It never was for me.

I have a similar lack of success with the more vaguely done guided meditations as well, like feeling energy around you or imagining a bubble of light or imagining yourself as a mountain. I can't do abstract stuff like that, my brain can't grok it. I also suspect this is why I can't do chakras, either; it's a combo of crap at energy work and crap at abstract meditation. They do nothing for me.

But that's okay, breathing meditation works really, really well for me, so I stick with that as my staple if I need a peaceful/calming sort of thing. Pairing it with a meditation timer app on my phone has been really useful too, because the ambient sounds shut up my brain long enough to concentrate on my breath, and I use a set of beads to count my progress.

The first thing that really opened up visualisation for me was a meditation exercise I did a few years back that was all about your mental landscape. We started in a wheat field, and the instruction was to fill in the rest, to let the land come to life and expand around you. And suddenly I had Bakhu, a place to explore and meet my gods. (Like, there are literally temples all over Bakhu now for all the gods I work with.) There are a lot of different habitats there, and I know it very well. I know where to go to meet each god, and how to get in to their temples (if necessary; Wesir/Osiris requires me to use my priest ring to unlock the temple door before I can enter).

The second thing that really made sense to me was that this sort of meditation was really just telling myself a story in my head. I'm a writer, so approaching it in this way made working through guided meditations much easier, because I knew how to move through them. I could see myself as the protagonist, and write what was happening in my head as I went. That's how I began to get things out of it, and to meet gods there. It became our meeting place. I don't know if that's a helpful approach for you, but it certainly worked for me.

After that, guided meditations worked a lot better for me. The reader helps a lot, of course. The ADF Two Powers meditation never worked for me until I used Ian Corrigan's recording, and for whatever reason, his voice with that meditation works for me in a way no one else's does. I have no idea why. The energies I feel from it are still very subtle, because I am not good at energy work, but I can more easily visualise the currents and I guess that's as good as it's going to get for me. So yeah, it might be that the voice isn't working for you, and you might want to try different recordings to see if anyone else resonates with you.

And, to be honest, I can always tell when it's me just daydreaming. If I'm able to control what happens, it's all me. If I'm not in charge of this story, it's them. And yes, it is obvious for me when I'm in meditation. It's like I'm being dragged along, and I can't change what's going on. But exploring on my own, and going where I want to go, that's a totally different feeling. Very subtle, and hard to explain, but it is possible for me to distinguish them. I don't do lucid dreaming, though, so I can't tell you whether that's different again from what I'm doing.
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Re: Meditation makes no sense.
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2016, 01:27:48 pm »
Quote from: Altair;199249
It also sparked a crazy idea: With all the communication technology at our fingertips, might it not be possible to pick a time and try a group video chat that would consist of one of you two leading us in a meditation session?

 
My sitting meditation practice is daily... until it isn't. I swear, I skip a day or two and then the next thing I know a week has passed. Ah, well.

As for the video chat, I think that is a super cool idea that has only two obstacles: making sure everybody has a camera, and my voice. I'm not shy about it - I do have a podcast - but it's not what anybody would describe as soothing. I sound like - that's me on the far left. So you would be sitting there suffering through, "so just like, breathe in four counts. Bitchin. Okay, so you're walking and you see, uhm, like, this bigass tree..."

I picture Jenett as having dulcet tones, however.


Quote from: Sobekemiti;199265
The first thing that really opened up visualisation for me was a meditation exercise I did a few years back that was all about your mental landscape.


Yes! That can be SO helpful for guided meditations! Years ago (so long ago I forget where I learned the idea from, unfortunately) part of my practice was to build a starting point for brain journeys. A home base, if you will. This starting point obviously became very detailed and well known to me, so it provided a sense of realism that I think helps my mind make the jump from 'daydream' to 'crap, this is really happening' when I would leave the base and wander off to do whatever.

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