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Author Topic: Feminism  (Read 3642 times)

Nymree

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Feminism
« on: November 11, 2016, 10:21:23 am »
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.

(Apologies if this is the wrong board to pop this on.)

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 11:46:01 am »
Quote from: Nymree;198997
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.

(Apologies if this is the wrong board to pop this on.)
The media is exactly the reason I loathe the word "feminist." They've taken something powerful and meaningful and positive and equated it to man-hating feminazis.

If the topic of feminism and/or women's rights I'll usually avoid the word feminist and instead use equalist. Because that's what the women's rights movement is really about, equality. It's not about making women (whether they have female reproductive organs or not) stronger. Women are already strong. It's about changing the way the world sees that strength.
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Re: Feminism
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 12:23:50 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;198997
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.


I understand feminism to be the radical idea that women are people.

And it was a feminist blog that introduced me to a comprehensive scheme about the imbalances of power in society. I'd started reading it because it had meta from a sociological angle of a fandom that I really enjoyed and couldn't read enough meta about. I went on to notice other non-fandom posts that described very well the lived experience of gender-based abuse of power. That's also where (and how) I sorted out a personal trouble with my always wanting to make others happy: I didn't have a concept of mutually-respected boundaries, of "my rights end where yours begin" and that the definition of a right is that we have the same ones. For example, the right to privacy, or the right to pursuit of happiness. We both have those. But, if my pursuit of happiness requires an invasion of someone else's privacy, then I do not have the right to do that, because the other person sustains a right to privacy. We can both be private, though, and usually we should both be able to do what makes us happy without making someone else miserable. Feminism generally begins with noticing that men enjoy an awful lot of human rights that 1.) women are denied, and/or 2.) require exploitation of women.

Realizing this has been extraordinary helpful to me personally, and the power dynamics often (not always, but often) apply to other imbalances of social power. Basically, life sucks when you're on the disempowered end, but until I knew that by studying feminism, I just continued to feel bad for doing what I thought was the right thing (but was really the wrong thing for me to do, which was why I'd keep feeling bad.)

Some notes from a lecture I got to hear about the history of feminism:

1st Wave Feminism, the women's suffrage movement, focused on equality of treatment in the public domain: employment, education, property, and access to public services. Before this movement, a lot of Western civilization had separate spheres—women would be discouraged by law or society from joining the army, or getting a university education, owning a car, voting, stuff like that. Men would also be discouraged from "too girly" tasks, but perhaps not often so violently.

2nd Wave Feminism tended to make it out that, whenever women to avail of the rights to public domain, they could technically be any gender...as long as they acted more masculine in the fulfillment of those roles. There's something wrong with that situation, maybe, you know, that means genders aren't truly equal. So, this focused more on cultural empowerment of the feminine, rather than sweeping everyone towards roles that were still masculine despite having women sometimes perform those roles, because femininity would still be treated as some icky cooties-carrying pollutant to people's minds and identities, which 2nd Wave feminists decided shouldn't be.

3rd Wave Feminism focused on how society generated this imbalance of power in the first place: genders as the product of cultural, societal, and/or psychological dynamics.

One idea credited to 3rd Wave Feminism is that human rights are negative: a person has the right to be left alone, but not the right to someone else's attentions. The empty space (that's why it's called "negative") is a distance or barrier that becomes an interpersonal boundary. And the better those boundaries are respected, the better chance at equality and harmony that society has.

I understand where this is coming from, and although this may be a "wave" almost as far in the past as the suffragette movement that got women the right to vote in the first place, where it comes from is still around: a lot of very young girls continue to be harassed by men they don't know, just for looking conventionally attractive (for one example.) Suffering from many other displays of manly entitlement, I would think, would prompt this idea of human rights. I don't believe it works for every dynamic, though; sometimes abuse of power can be exercised by silence or willfully ignoring somebody, although it's more obviously abuse to be active, invasive, loud and persistent about it.

However, this idea did also allow me to release bad feelings about things that aren't my problem, especially when my worrying out loud about it could be invasive or condescending towards the person or people to whom that problem mattered more directly. I could redirect my focus more constructively that way.

This wave also came with the (attempted) criminalization of pornography. Details and spoilers for Perfect Blue under spoiler box.
Spoiler:  
Feminists who worked in the legal sphere considered pornography to be...one way that modern culture generated power imbalance between genders. The portrayal of human sexuality in pornography as a genre, would overwhelmingly fit a stereotype of women as sexy objects for men. Not active partners with desires and autonomy of their own.

While the medium should theoretically also be able to convey messages of men as sexualized objects (for example) just as strongly...the genre almost never had it that way.

And I mention all that because so much media representation of women used to make them out as objects or accessories to other demographics (those others would be represented more wholly and realistically as people.)

And some girls internalize that harmful message, and/or boys and men are encouraged to imitate that harmful dynamic. There are so many good shows out right now that bridge a significant discrepancy in the storytelling quality of the shows that I watched when I was younger, or movies that bored and disappointed me, because the representation was terrible back then. What we have now in popular media is still not representational equality, because we're all so used to the normalization of sexism, and the imbalance of social power.

That's the theory, anyway. I think some faction of this wave pointed out that it isn't the medium/genre/work itself that's so bad so much as consumers of that media simply being wrongheaded about it, and I agree with the sentiment a lot. While I can give a few examples of something I'd watched or read that perpetuated as awful as any ideas I can pick up from "real life"...and I'd already mentioned my appreciation for better-quality shows on that front that are more fulfilling...I also doubt that the onus should be all on a creator to structure something that can be counted on to change every viewer's mind; it doesn't work. It so rarely works that I'd have to say it doesn't work.

I think Perfect Blue was a very solemn and sympathetic work that shows a woman's growth into full personhood despite sexual objectification from society, for example, but I've heard some people just focus on the graphic rape because that's the sexy part. (Actually, it's not supposed to be, but if some viewers think it is sexy despite the rest of the movie, no meta has the power to change that approach.)


4th Wave Feminism was heavily influenced by Postmodernism, which was a rejection of grand theory for itty bitty nodes or particles of social reality. How can we possibly advance social reform if each individual only ever speaks for one's own self? (A similar question came up during the My Polytheism project.) Well, to trade on any privileged trait as an ally to those who do not have that privilege implies a common goal and values that would create a group identity. If we just brush it off that each of us is not in an identical social position as another (not only gender, but economic class, race, ethnic heritage, being able-bodied, neurologically typical...) and therefore we should all be solipsists...erm, that's intellectually dishonest? I mean, I'd hoped that basic human empathy would push most people to discover something beyond present personal experience.

/end of lecture notes


My opinion...

Feminism remains necessary because so many people in the world still don't think of women as people, don't consider the perspective of women, don't want to work to break down limitations that are unnecessary and unhelpful but remain, and the world has not achieved gender equality.

Still, feminism has problems: the Lavender Menace, the cotton ceiling, not-so-radical feminists who don't accept or support sex workers as people or trans people as people, that movement feminism largely developed in the Western world led by white cisgendered women...which can get awkward.

Not more opinion, but just one last reference: some definition of objectification that might be helpful if you want to read up more on feminism.

Quote
1. instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes
   2. denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination
   3. inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity
   4. fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects
   5. violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity
   6. ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold)
   7. denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.
   8. reduction to body: the treatment of a person as identified with their body, or body parts
   9. reduction to appearance: the treatment of a person primarily in terms of how they look, or how they appear to the senses
  10. silencing: the treatment of a person as if they are silent, lacking the capacity to speak


I hope this helps!
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Jabberwocky

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2016, 01:56:52 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;198997
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.

(Apologies if this is the wrong board to pop this on.)

 
I think it's too vague to talk about "feminism". It's an umbrella term covering a lot of different ideologies. Which school of thought are we taking about?

Of some of the main ones.

I consider liberal feminism (of the "more women in the boardroom" type) to be a in opposition to my politics. I don't think that "women should be allowed to oppress working class people as well as their male counterparts" to be a worthwhile goal.

I consider at least some socialist feminists comrades; at least the libertarian socialist end of that group.  If we're both fighting the hydra, I'd be a fool to write off good people because they're focusing on a different head at times.

Radfems, including the hand of seperatists still active. Meh. They aren't directly opposed to my views like the libfems, but we have such different perspectives I think we're irrelevant to each other. Apart from TERFS. They can fuck off.
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Re: Feminism
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2016, 02:53:01 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;199004
I think it's too vague to talk about "feminism". It's an umbrella term covering a lot of different ideologies. Which school of thought are we taking about?

 
That was my thought.

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Jaxxie

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2016, 03:13:01 am »
Quote from: Nymree;198997
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.

Speaking as a woman who considers herself a feminist, in the most textbook sense, I find that social media has done much to damage to the label. For example, I am a vegan and follow Mercy for Animals on Facebook. They featured a story not long ago about a woman's dramatic weight loss after she adopted a plant based diet. Most people commenting found the story inspiring, but one woman, a self-proclaimed fat acceptance feminist (her label, not mine) got very angry and lashed out at the organization for "promoting emotional violence against fat female vegans". She went off on a tangent about how stories about weight loss are triggering and fatphobic and misogynistic. I follow a woman on YouTube who is a sex worker and was always being scolded by feminists for "choosing a profession that objectifies women". I have always struggled with the way feminists invalidate the women who have had abortions and struggled emotionally with their decision. I am a dancer and hip hop is my passion, and I have been accused of not being a feminist, because I like rap music.

I think the issue is that we have this segment of people who are always looking for a reason to be angry about something who have latched onto the feminist moniker and have begun to add these other social justice causes to the term. Suddenly feminism wasn't just about equal pay for equal work, dismantling rape culture, and promoting reproductive choice. Now it's about demanding magazines not feature thin models because it's "triggering" or shaming women who choose to be stay-at-home moms or dissecting every single song, television show, or movie looking for sexist tropes and blogging about it. There must be balance, and if you must be overly analytical, easily offended, and always angry about something then please stop using the umbrella excuse of, "well, I'm a feminist", because that is one of the reasons so many young women coming up are reluctant to embrace the cause.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 03:14:17 am by Jaxxie »

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2016, 02:08:38 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;199021

There must be balance, and if you must be overly analytical, easily offended, and always angry about something then please stop using the umbrella excuse of, "well, I'm a feminist", because that is one of the reasons so many young women coming up are reluctant to embrace the cause.

This is pretty much how I feel, too. I think that if you got right down to it, most people would agree with being feminist in the textbook sense.

My version of feminism is basically that Women are people. Even if they aren't someone's mother,sister, wife, etc. They don't need to be validated by a relationship to be respected. They are also people if they are not cisgender, white, wealthy, or belong to the majority religious/ethnic group. All women are people, period.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:10:40 pm by SunflowerP »
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Re: Feminism
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2016, 04:18:52 pm »
Quote from: MeadowRae;199030


 
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Re: Feminism
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2016, 05:28:00 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;198997
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.

(Apologies if this is the wrong board to pop this on.)

 
I'm okay with first wave feminism.
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Re: Feminism
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 01:13:05 am »
Quote from: Nymree;198997
Thoughts? Many  people take a negative view of feminism, and the media often seems to give it a less than positive representation. I'm curious to hear the opinions of the Cauldron community.

(Apologies if this is the wrong board to pop this on.)

 
I'm a feminist. I see my feminism as "everybody needs to be allowed to do their thing as long as their thing isn't interfering with anybody else's thing, unless the other person's thing is interfering with somebody else in a harmful way; then you might want to interfere to protect the person being harmed." I consider it feminism because it's focused on how this all works as relates to gender and I recognize that historically women have been more on the negative end of all this than men.

I'd also consider myself an egalitarian, but I don't consider feminism and egalitarianism strictly interchangeable.


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Re: Feminism
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 08:41:00 am »
Quote from: Jaxxie;199021
I am a dancer and hip hop is my passion, and I have been accused of not being a feminist, because I like rap music.
...

Suddenly feminism wasn't just about equal pay for equal work, dismantling rape culture, and promoting reproductive choice. Now it's about demanding magazines not feature thin models because it's "triggering" or shaming women who choose to be stay-at-home moms or dissecting every single song, television show, or movie looking for sexist tropes and blogging about it. There must be balance, and if you must be overly analytical, easily offended, and always angry about something then please stop using the umbrella excuse of, "well, I'm a feminist", because that is one of the reasons so many young women coming up are reluctant to embrace the cause.

 
Feminist theory is, over all, a framework of social analysis and critique. So it's going to be critical - that's the point and the method of women's liberation. I do agree that using the title "feminist" as a catch all for any kind of activism is problematic for multiple reasons. That said, there is value to the "angry feminist" personality and it just goes to how misogynistic our culture still is that "angry" feminist types are scapegoated as the downfall of the movement.

And to your first paragraph; again, honest and radical cultural critique is the cornerstone of feminism. I personally have no opinion one way or the other about your interest in hip hop (as I'm not even remotely an authority on the subject), but I am definitely
critical of a great deal of modern culture because so much of it is a derivative of patriarchy. A common saying in feminist circles I'm in is that, particularly in first world countries, women can make a lot of different choices - just because a woman makes a choice doesn't make it a feminist one. The implication there being that the ability to choose something doesn't make it inherently liberating for those of the oppressed female sex class.



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Faemon

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 11:09:38 am »
Quote from: Anisaer;201796
there is value to the "angry feminist" personality and it just goes to how misogynistic our culture still is that "angry" feminist types are scapegoated as the downfall of the movement.

I personally have no opinion one way or the other about your interest in hip hop
Would you have an opinion on personal attacks and emotional abuse couched in terms of "because I'm right to; I'm feminist and angry"? Because condemning Jaxxie on the basis of music genre preference could be based on racism or classism, disguised as feminism, or it could very well be that the specific songs that Jaxxie listens to all the time have Problematic lyrics and/or support professional artists of unabashed misogynistic character.

But my first concern would be that anybody pressured Jaxxie to feel like an evil unperson just for enjoying something in life—like, "quit listening to music you like, listen only to music genres that I like, or else I'll argue you into upset and then orchestrate a mob pileup of total strangers who know where you live and will sue and shun you into homelessness."

While not to Jaxxie specifically (I hope not to you specifically, Jaxxie), that does happen, and I believe it's bad, and I believe it comes from the emotional convictions (anger) of a narrative (this is True Real Valuable Feminism)—and I wouldn't want to dust my hands off all, "Oh, but they're not real feminists," or worse "there is value to the angry feminist personality and you're just scapegoating".

Some expressions of feminism are exclusionist—I've mentioned them because they're real, because it happens—and I believe that valorizing the anger behind that ensures that the misguided direction, and interpersonal abuse and bullying couched in terms of feminism, will never be corrected.

Quote
particularly in first world countries, women can make a lot of different choices - just because a woman makes a choice doesn't make it a feminist one. The implication there being that the ability to choose something doesn't make it inherently liberating

 That idea, for example...I've noticed makes it too easy for a bully or abuser who uses feminist rhetoric to erode or dismiss any target's individual personhood.

Someone takes her man-spouse's family name upon marriage (because the paperwork otherwise is too much trouble, she doesn't consider a significant difference between continuing with her father's family name and taking on another, and/or she's trying to shake off a stalker?) Not liberating! And totally everyone else's business, to critique and analyze for great feminisms!

Wear a headscarf as comfort to religious faith? Antifeminist and not liberating, white people must rescue the brown headscarf wearing women from the brown men and from themselves (Lila Abu Lughod wrote it better).

Consider the opposite. Nude for a camera? Sexual objectification, especially of women, pornography should be illegal! (If I recall correctly, McKinnon spearheaded that? But to the sentiment itself, never mind that some women explore personal sexuality otherwise forbidden to them through pornography—that's not liberating and they're brainwashed by the patriarchy, have no perspective worth considering, and must be declared unpersoned enemies of the Only True Feminism.)

It's great that you won't comment on what you personally don't feel confident commenting on, but I think the piece of reasoning you'd offered above—while, admittedly, useful and true in a lot of cases—I think more often gives a lot of immature and angry feminists exactly the validation they need to shout ill-formed opinions with their eyes shut and their hands over their ears...until their target melts down and shuts up. And while I've been told here that any framework that imposes preventative measures against a minority that would abuse that very framework would become inherently abusive to all...I haven't actually found the cases described to be all that rare anymore at all.

So, that's why, while I'm well aware that anger can be natural, healthy, inevitable in the swamp of (and effective to combat) oppression...I personally don't automatically dismiss the sentiment (of some expressions of that anger really not being okay, at all, at...all...) as contrived scapegoating—because a lot of the times I've found this sort of feminism really isn't constructive or restorative, it's abusive, oppressive, and not at all open to growth, development, or correction. And I suspect it starts with that abovequoted idea. Though it can also start in other places, in anything; but while I've mentioned a lot of ways feminism has helped me, I really feel it's had some noticeable failings in community and practice that I don't consider helpful to automatically dismiss.
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