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Author Topic: Could Dionysos and Cernunnos be one and the same?  (Read 4225 times)

Wodensday

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Could Dionysos and Cernunnos be one and the same?
« on: October 22, 2016, 05:47:16 pm »
So I've scoured the internet and I'm a little unsure of the best places to post my question. I am looking for scholarly information but my question remains conjecture. The guidelines of this forum make it sound like since revisionism is not tolerated, hopefully I have come to a place which will give the idea a fair shake without being overly credulous just because they want to believe. No UPG please.

Now, with that disclaimer out of the way:

As is generally accepted, the Celts migrated from south and eastern Europe to eventually make it to the British Isles. We know they were around Thrace, even including a bit of what is now northern Turkey.

We also know that some features of Thracian paganism made their way into Greek life. A prime example would be Dionysos. We know Dionysos was occasionally a horned god. He was a god of vegetation, death and rebirth.

There is no etymological link between Dionysos and Cernunnos of course, but Gods and Goddesses have many epithets, and it is possible that Cernunnos derives from carnuātus, which means horned. Dionysos was sometimes called Boukerôs which means ox-horned one.

Could migrations of hundreds of miles and hundreds of years, from a land centered more on bulls to a land centered more on deer change Boukeros to Cernunnos? They are somewhat similar sounding and share etymological roots.

Cernunnos has been thought to be a god of the wild and possibly revelry, which would be in keeping with the Dionysos theory.

Thoughts?

If no one has any idea, does anyone know where on the internet I might be able to ask this question and get an informed response?

Thank you.

Eastling

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Re: Could Dionysos and Cernunnos be one and the same?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2016, 07:58:49 pm »
Quote from: Wodensday;197789
As is generally accepted, the Celts migrated from south and eastern Europe to eventually make it to the British Isles. We know they were around Thrace, even including a bit of what is now northern Turkey.

We also know that some features of Thracian paganism made their way into Greek life. A prime example would be Dionysos. We know Dionysos was occasionally a horned god. He was a god of vegetation, death and rebirth.


The old theory that Dionysos is a Thracian import to the Greek pantheon has been long since disproved. It's almost certain that some Thracian practices later contributed to his cult, but to pin him down as a god of Thracian origin is quite inaccurate. He is Greek.

My favored modern theory is that the kernel of the god who became Dionysos originated in Crete.

Quote
There is no etymological link between Dionysos and Cernunnos of course, but Gods and Goddesses have many epithets, and it is possible that Cernunnos derives from carnuātus, which means horned. Dionysos was sometimes called Boukerôs which means ox-horned one.

Could migrations of hundreds of miles and hundreds of years, from a land centered more on bulls to a land centered more on deer change Boukeros to Cernunnos? They are somewhat similar sounding and share etymological roots.

Cernunnos has been thought to be a god of the wild and possibly revelry, which would be in keeping with the Dionysos theory.

Thoughts?

 
Associating Dionysos with Cernunnos is not absurd to me. They deal with some similar archetypes, and they are both horned gods in their way. Creating a Wiccish practice that syncretizes them both as "the horned god" wouldn't be out of the question, IMO.

Calling them "one and the same" is pretty inaccurate, though, especially from a historical perspective. Even if they may have shared some common origins (which is a tenuous assertion at best), they obviously wound up in very different places.
"The peacock can show its whole tail at once, but I can only tell you a story."
--JAMES ALAN GARDNER

Wodensday

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Re: Could Dionysos and Cernunnos be one and the same?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2016, 08:23:18 pm »
Quote from: Eastling;197795
The old theory that Dionysos is a Thracian import to the Greek pantheon has been long since disproved. It's almost certain that some Thracian practices later contributed to his cult, but to pin him down as a god of Thracian origin is quite inaccurate. He is Greek.


 
Interesting, do you have any sources for this?

Thanks.

Eastling

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Re: Could Dionysos and Cernunnos be one and the same?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2016, 08:32:55 pm »
Quote from: Wodensday;197797
Interesting, do you have any sources for this?

Thanks.

 
If I recall correctly, Richard Seaford's 2006 book is the most recent book-length academic study of Dionysos and his religion as a whole; it goes into Dionysos's origins in detail.

The basic evidence, which has since been affirmed in many studies, is that the name Dionysos was unearthed in Greece in Linear B dating to as early as the 13th century BCE.
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HarpingHawke

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Re: Could Dionysos and Cernunnos be one and the same?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 04:33:26 pm »
Quote from: Eastling;197795

Associating Dionysos with Cernunnos is not absurd to me. They deal with some similar archetypes, and they are both horned gods in their way. Creating a Wiccish practice that syncretizes them both as "the horned god" wouldn't be out of the question, IMO.


As long as we're talking about Wiccan!Cernunnos and not Gaulish!Cernunnos, inasmuch as they can be separated--the two have some things in common, but from what I know about Dionysos (which is admittedly very little) he'd probably be better associated with Wiccan!Cernunnos, as he has the sexual attributes also linked to Dionysos. Gaulish!Cernunnos, however, has not to my knowledge ever been depicted in a sexual nature.

Quote
Calling them "one and the same" is pretty inaccurate, though, especially from a historical perspective. Even if they may have shared some common origins (which is a tenuous assertion at best), they obviously wound up in very different places.

 
Yep.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

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