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Author Topic: Paganism and Angels  (Read 5608 times)

Koudelka

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Paganism and Angels
« on: September 24, 2016, 01:53:51 pm »
I keep getting pulled toward angels right now, but how does one incorporate them, especially the archangels, when you don't believe in the bible? Is it possible?

I mean I never questioned the existence of my goddess like I do with angels, but that's understandable, right? Cause I left the bible, and Christianity behind. But my childhood self keeps pointing to them like, "Don't you believe in them? Why can't you?"
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Faemon

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2016, 08:26:31 pm »
Quote from: Koudelka;196584
I keep getting pulled toward angels right now, but how does one incorporate them, especially the archangels, when you don't believe in the bible? Is it possible?

Very possible. I think my mother was uncomfortable with the patriarchy of our national religion, because of a string of awful relationships with men and the unanimously abuse-enabling responses couched in religious terms. I suppose that's why she gravitated much more towards angel lore, since they were reputedly agender and did cool spirit stuff. When that didn't entirely fit with the Bible, she went New Age about it, Doreen Virtue love and light sort of Christo-Buddhist cosmic model. That worked for her.

MacCoun's On Becoming An Alchemist has to me a similar sort of self-help personal development spirituality vibe...and, MacCoun outright states basically, 'I grew up Christian, so all lighter beings are angels to me.' That's lighter as in by the alchemical concept of levity, not...Bruno Mars wants a sky full of cigarette lighters.

Basically, I have witnessed that angels can transfer over through subcultures and perspectives, not with some psychic vision or intuitive channelling even, but just... that's what it sure looks like. And yeah, my mother got a concerned friend of the family's gift her with Gary Kinnaman's Angels Light and Dark by way of saying the New Age angels were Not Really Real Angels as in according to Biblical canon, but....eh, you know? Eh. I sort of get that the gifter was aiming to protect the cultural context or integrity that defined angels, but to my mind...I watched a documentary I can't recall now who wrote/produced it that put out how the popular aesthetic of angels with feathered wings came from classical statuary of muses. Try to find any angelic Otherkin and ask them what's what, and I predict you'll get various very personal contextualizing mythos. Why would collective or personal gnosis be less valid than ancient, much-translated texts? (That might very well have been written from personal gnosis in the first place?) They all say "angel," so I too say "angel." Maybe the thing's different each time I say it depending on who hears more than what I've in mind when I say it, but...eh.
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Koudelka

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2016, 12:20:13 am »
Quote from: Faemon;196596
They all say "angel," so I too say "angel." Maybe the thing's different each time I say it depending on who hears more than what I've in mind when I say it, but...eh.

 
Loved what you said. Thanks for the help you've been giving me here on the forum. I totally get what you mean, or maybe you just gave me a kind of enlightenment. What do I think of when I say, or hear the word angel? Maybe I can work from that, and see where it goes, but I've been very confused lately when it comes to spirituality. How am I to make the pieces fit? But this "Gnosis" keeps getting pointed out to me, and I appreciate the reminder again. I suppose I'll keep digging deeper. :) Appreciate it.
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Caleb Oak

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2016, 09:13:08 am »
Quote from: Koudelka;196584
I keep getting pulled toward angels right now, but how does one incorporate them, especially the archangels, when you don't believe in the bible? Is it possible?

I mean I never questioned the existence of my goddess like I do with angels, but that's understandable, right? Cause I left the bible, and Christianity behind. But my childhood self keeps pointing to them like, "Don't you believe in them? Why can't you?"

The word Angel comes from the latin word angelus, meaning messenger so in that regard yes, but Uriel, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael will probably NEVER obey a pagan "deity", because they only serve Yahweh. :)

You have the greek pagan Nemisis, messenger of retrebution. ;)
But thats not an angel as Michael is. :D:
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 09:13:30 am by Thrak »

Jenett

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2016, 12:48:43 pm »
Quote from: Koudelka;196584

I mean I never questioned the existence of my goddess like I do with angels, but that's understandable, right? Cause I left the bible, and Christianity behind. But my childhood self keeps pointing to them like, "Don't you believe in them? Why can't you?"

 
So, one thing to think about is the difference between 'belief in' and 'making part of one's religious or magical practice'. I believe in lots of things that aren't part of my religious or magical practice - but they're just not terribly relevant lots of the time. Or they can be a pleasant intellectual exercise, but it doesn't change much about what you choose to practice now.

For some people, this kind of question comes up for them because they're trying to make peace between their current beliefs and practices (and choices about both those things) and what they grew up with, or previously had as part of their beliefs and practices, and some people, their brain keeps trying to poke at the questions that don't feel fully answered yet.

I've certainly known people who've had the kind of nagging question you describe here, where the question went away once they sat down and poked at it a bit more (usually a combination of some research, some journalling or meditation, some looking at if there were unresolved things in leaving the religion they were brought up in).

Another possibility is looking at beings who are not deities, but who function in a similar form as angels in Christianity - for example, guardians of the quarters in a number of religious witchcraft traditions.

This is one of those things that's not heavily discussed in most books (partly because in many traditions, names and specific details of those guardians are something that's part of a personal introduction to those beings in ritual - like, I'll introduce someone who's at a party at my home to other people at that party, but I won't go around saying "X is my friend!" all over social media in public most of the time.) However, it's definitely a thing that's there.

And as pointed out in the thread, the word angelos in Koine (New Testament) Greek just means 'messenger', and there are lots of other messenger figures. (Besides the ones already mentioned, there are examples on Etruscan funerary urns who are human figures with wings: the last I looked at the research, we were still not really sure what their role is, and it might be more 'demon' than 'angel', but some sort of messenger or psychopomp role was possible. This brief PDF has some useful description and citation)

The main point is that winged figures with messenger roles are not solely the province of Christianity, and predate Christianity in a number of cultures, so figuring out if you're circling around 'angels in the Christian meaning' or something else that has similar characteristics might be helpful to you.
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Born Again Pagan

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2016, 01:33:01 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;196596
Very possible. I think my mother was uncomfortable with the patriarchy of our national religion, because of a string of awful relationships with men and the unanimously abuse-enabling responses couched in religious terms. I suppose that's why she gravitated much more towards angel lore, since they were reputedly agender and did cool spirit stuff. When that didn't entirely fit with the Bible, she went New Age about it, Doreen Virtue love and light sort of Christo-Buddhist cosmic model. That worked for her.

MacCoun's On Becoming An Alchemist has to me a similar sort of self-help personal development spirituality vibe...and, MacCoun outright states basically, 'I grew up Christian, so all lighter beings are angels to me.' That's lighter as in by the alchemical concept of levity, not...Bruno Mars wants a sky full of cigarette lighters.

Basically, I have witnessed that angels can transfer over through subcultures and perspectives, not with some psychic vision or intuitive channelling even, but just... that's what it sure looks like. And yeah, my mother got a concerned friend of the family's gift her with Gary Kinnaman's Angels Light and Dark by way of saying the New Age angels were Not Really Real Angels as in according to Biblical canon, but....eh, you know? Eh. I sort of get that the gifter was aiming to protect the cultural context or integrity that defined angels, but to my mind...I watched a documentary I can't recall now who wrote/produced it that put out how the popular aesthetic of angels with feathered wings came from classical statuary of muses. Try to find any angelic Otherkin and ask them what's what, and I predict you'll get various very personal contextualizing mythos. Why would collective or personal gnosis be less valid than ancient, much-translated texts? (That might very well have been written from personal gnosis in the first place?) They all say "angel," so I too say "angel." Maybe the thing's different each time I say it depending on who hears more than what I've in mind when I say it, but...eh.

 
I wish there were a Jesus religion and forget the Christ part of it. The blood sacrifice idea should be dropped as well as the four horsemen and Jesus rappelling down form the sky with a sword in his teeth to slay 1/3 of humanity. But leave the sermon on the mount and the love and peace part of it intact.  That is where I would fit in.

Koudelka

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2016, 07:12:08 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;196615
The word Angel comes from the latin word angelus, meaning messenger so in that regard yes, but Uriel, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael will probably NEVER obey a pagan "deity", because they only serve Yahweh. :)
:

Well, that's something to think about. What is my concept of the higher plane which these Archangels reside in? Am I not allowed to call on them, because I'm pagan?
What restrictions do I have without calling myself a "new ager"?

Quote from: Jenett;196621

I've certainly known people who've had the kind of nagging question you describe here, where the question went away once they sat down and poked at it a bit more (usually a combination of some research, some journalling or meditation, some looking at if there were unresolved things in leaving the religion they were brought up in).

That's a good idea. Research, journaling, meditation, and back again till I work this thing out.

Quote from: Jenett;196621

Another possibility is looking at beings who are not deities, but who function in a similar form as angels in Christianity - for example, guardians of the quarters in a number of religious witchcraft traditions.

Ya, I am mostly just trying to get rid of a problem I have with some bad spirits, and an "open empty house". I feel like I should let God and Goddess take care of it, and not interfere. A message I received when I made my requests to be rid of the evil spirits was "it's going to take a long time." I don't understand why it has to take a long time... but I'm trying to have faith.

Quote from: Jenett;196621

And as pointed out in the thread, the word angelos in Koine (New Testament) Greek just means 'messenger', and there are lots of other messenger figures. (Besides the ones already mentioned, there are examples on Etruscan funerary urns who are human figures with wings: the last I looked at the research, we were still not really sure what their role is, and it might be more 'demon' than 'angel', but some sort of messenger or psychopomp role was possible. This brief PDF has some useful description and citation)

The main point is that winged figures with messenger roles are not solely the province of Christianity, and predate Christianity in a number of cultures, so figuring out if you're circling around 'angels in the Christian meaning' or something else that has similar characteristics might be helpful to you.

 
It's funny how I feel so tested by what's going on. Another knowing spiritual being told me it was a "trials". Would you trust that? I don't know. She seemed legit!
 
I've had signs to go to archangel Michael, and ask him for help, but jee I am so outed from that jurisdiction, because I'm pagan... (sarcasm) It's a very hard situation to be in.
My Jedi senses are tingling...


Jenett

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2016, 08:24:11 pm »
Quote from: Koudelka;196645

Ya, I am mostly just trying to get rid of a problem I have with some bad spirits, and an "open empty house". I feel like I should let God and Goddess take care of it, and not interfere. A message I received when I made my requests to be rid of the evil spirits was "it's going to take a long time." I don't understand why it has to take a long time... but I'm trying to have faith.


So, that's a totally different sort of topic, really - for some people calling on angels (or guardians, or other entities that are not gods) is a good solution for that kind of thing, but it usually works better if you have an established connection.

There are certainly protection steps you can take on your own, or steps to help reduce effects from entities curious about you, but the details are going to depend an awful lot on your current situation, your religious and magical preferences, what skills you have now, what skills you can learn fairly quickly (since people are different, some people will pick up some things very quickly, and others might not pick that thing up quickly enough to be helpful.)

Quote
It's funny how I feel so tested by what's going on. Another knowing spiritual being told me it was a "trials". Would you trust that? I don't know. She seemed legit!


I work on a principle my teachers taught me : that just because something doesn't have a physical body doesn't make it wise or right. It might be! It might not be! I need more information.

If it's coming from an entity I do not have a longstanding and tested connection with (built over a period of years, not weeks or months), I'm going to be checking what that entity suggests against my common sense, and also against other sources - divination, meditation, sitting with the suggestion, figuring out what the ways that suggestion might fail are, and whether that's an acceptable risk to me.

Basically, the same things I'd do if I was seeing a new doctor for the first time, and they suggested something I didn't know about, or a financial consultant or something like that: I'd check what is said out with sources that are either truly independent and neutral, or that have my best interests at heart.

Quote

I've had signs to go to archangel Michael, and ask him for help, but jee I am so outed from that jurisdiction, because I'm pagan... (sarcasm) It's a very hard situation to be in.

 
A book recommendation for you: Spirit Speak by Ivo Dominguez. He's got a whole chapter about angels and spirit guides, putting them in context in a Pagan (and specifically Wiccan-based model) but also talking about different ways working with them might or might not make sense for an individual and why. That book also has good advice on working with non-physical beings more safely, and with trouble shooting some of the common issues that can come up. I think you'd find it useful for several of the questions you're trying to sort out, and he's very good at the practical advice, including variations for specific needs.
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Koudelka

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2016, 11:25:06 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;196648

I work on a principle my teachers taught me : that just because something doesn't have a physical body doesn't make it wise or right. It might be! It might not be! I need more information.

If it's coming from an entity I do not have a longstanding and tested connection with (built over a period of years, not weeks or months), I'm going to be checking what that entity suggests against my common sense, and also against other sources - divination, meditation, sitting with the suggestion, figuring out what the ways that suggestion might fail are, and whether that's an acceptable risk to me.

Basically, the same things I'd do if I was seeing a new doctor for the first time, and they suggested something I didn't know about, or a financial consultant or something like that: I'd check what is said out with sources that are either truly independent and neutral, or that have my best interests at heart.

That is something that's lurking in the back of my mind with some of the messages I receive. I think to myself, "This is random communication, and I don't know these entities." But the messages come through a channel familiar to me when seeking guidance. Still, they ARE unfamiliar even if they do seem to have truth to what they say. Lol I make this all seem so jumbled up. Luckily I'm making this an organized mess. That's better than nothing, so I say... At least I keep a healthy distance from messages like that, and not follow them blindly over a cliff.

Quote from: Jenett;196648

A book recommendation for you: Spirit Speak by Ivo Dominguez. He's got a whole chapter about angels and spirit guides, putting them in context in a Pagan (and specifically Wiccan-based model) but also talking about different ways working with them might or might not make sense for an individual and why. That book also has good advice on working with non-physical beings more safely, and with trouble shooting some of the common issues that can come up. I think you'd find it useful for several of the questions you're trying to sort out, and he's very good at the practical advice, including variations for specific needs.

 
And nice. I'll check it out, thanks!
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2016, 04:32:08 am »
Quote from: Koudelka;196584
I keep getting pulled toward angels right now, but how does one incorporate them, especially the archangels, when you don't believe in the bible? Is it possible?

I mean I never questioned the existence of my goddess like I do with angels, but that's understandable, right? Cause I left the bible, and Christianity behind. But my childhood self keeps pointing to them like, "Don't you believe in them? Why can't you?"


The Hellenist Roman Empire treated Jewish religion as just another regional pagan religion. The Greek, the Romans, the Syrians and Egyptians believed, that the deities of ALL nations exist. Iao and the angels with Hebrew names were incorporated into the syntetic worldview we encounter in the Greek Magical Papyri. If you want to reconnect to pagan angel-lore from late antiquity, I would suggest searching for inspiration in the PGM.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2016, 11:56:30 am »
Quote from: Koudelka;196645
Well, that's something to think about. What is my concept of the higher plane which these Archangels reside in? Am I not allowed to call on them, because I'm pagan?
What restrictions do I have without calling myself a "new ager"?


That's a good idea. Research, journaling, meditation, and back again till I work this thing out.


Ya, I am mostly just trying to get rid of a problem I have with some bad spirits, and an "open empty house". I feel like I should let God and Goddess take care of it, and not interfere. A message I received when I made my requests to be rid of the evil spirits was "it's going to take a long time." I don't understand why it has to take a long time... but I'm trying to have faith.


 
It's funny how I feel so tested by what's going on. Another knowing spiritual being told me it was a "trials". Would you trust that? I don't know. She seemed legit!
 
I've had signs to go to archangel Michael, and ask him for help, but jee I am so outed from that jurisdiction, because I'm pagan... (sarcasm) It's a very hard situation to be in.

Quote
Well, that's something to think about. What is my concept of the higher plane which these Archangels reside in? Am I not allowed to call on them, because I'm pagan?
What restrictions do I have without calling myself a "new ager"?

You can call on them, sure, why not.

I mean they just do not mix well in a Pagan ritual or practice, no offense. :)
Since they do not recognize pagan spirits as "gods" :ange:
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 11:56:57 am by Thrak »

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2016, 02:42:04 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;196674
I mean they just do not mix well in a Pagan ritual or practice, no offense. :) Since they do not recognize pagan spirits as "gods" :ange:


Isn't that like saying that trainers are not sneakers? Or that a subway isn't an underground?

Koudelka

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 04:00:29 pm »
Quote from: RecycledBenedict;196664
The Hellenist Roman Empire treated Jewish religion as just another regional pagan religion. The Greek, the Romans, the Syrians and Egyptians believed, that the deities of ALL nations exist. Iao and the angels with Hebrew names were incorporated into the syntetic worldview we encounter in the Greek Magical Papyri. If you want to reconnect to pagan angel-lore from late antiquity, I would suggest searching for inspiration in the PGM.


Out of curiosity, what's the PGM?
My Jedi senses are tingling...


RecycledBenedict

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 04:07:54 am »
Quote from: Koudelka;196686
Out of curiosity, what's the PGM?

 
The Greek Magical Papyri. I mentioned them in the same answer as I mentioned the abbreviation. For an English translation, seek for The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation including the Demotic Spells, edited by Hans Dieter Betz. You will then notice a rich, but not uniform, ancient pagan view on angels in the Greek-speaking and Coptic-speaking world.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Paganism and Angels
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 05:07:56 am »
Quote from: RecycledBenedict;196664
Iao and the angels with Hebrew names were incorporated into the syntetic worldview we encounter in the Greek Magical Papyri.


I wrote that answer on my phone yesterday. I now notice, that auto-correction disfigured what I wrote, so please note this corrigendum: For syntetic, read: syncretic.

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