The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

Thus despite different ways of approaching our beliefs do we at least share the belief that there are forces or beings outside of measurable world that we try to connect with?

Isn't that all religions, though?

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There have been many discussions that have shown that there is little to connect pagans together as a group other than saying we are not derived from Abrahamic religions in origin.

Modern paganism emerges from a particular cultural zeitgeist that was formulated between roughly 1850 and 1930, emerging from the romantic period with its emotion-driven art and romantic nationalism, the particular scientific and technological developments of that time, a spike of interest in the occult and on local folklores, a sense of dissociation from the natural world, and nostalgia for the past.

The commonalities are not religious.  They are socio-cultural.  As long as you are looking for a religious, spiritual, or theological connection, you will fail; that is not the source of the commonality.

(The same pile of stuff also gave rise to a bunch of stuff that a lot of pagans mutter about 'why the fuck is this non-religious crap in my religion', including but not limited to: science fiction fandom, environmental activism, alternative education movements, the Boy Scouts, the New Age movement, lost Atlantis, various free love movements, nudism, various rights movements, UFOlogy, and Nazis.)

Was just gonna say that.  

Also, I'm not sure if seeing nature as spiritual (or a manifestation of Divinity) is a good 'pagan' qualifier, as it might not apply to all pagan religions while applying to religions that don't identify as pagan.  

Also-also, there's a long history of ritual magic being practiced by Christians.  Not so sure 'bout the other Big Two, though.  

That said, I think "self-identifies as" might just be the only useful qualifier for what makes a 'pagan' pagan.

 
Seeing nature as spiritual or even divine is a perfectly acceptable view for those people who are pagan and find that is the approach they identify themselves with. Of course not all pagan pathways see nature in this light which is also appropriate for their pathway as a pagan. Again nature as spiritual of devise not a part of all pagan religions.

I was talking about people seeking pagan religions and not Christian for that is the one definition this forum has that it is about non Abrahamic religions as a definition of pagan.

In the last statement I would not argue with self identity as pagan but what make someone look towards a pagan religion. One could simply define their own religion as they want without attaching the work pagan.

My thought is that people becoming interested in paganism believe there is more to the world that we can interact with than is describable in observable method and can be proved  with the knowledge we have so far. In other words there is a great mystery or magic to the world that people believe exists but cannot be proved and in the case of pagan religions it is not through the Abrahamic pathways. Not all people believe there is anything more to the would than what we can measure. There are other religions that do and a am sure there are those religions that do not concern them with the mysteries of the universe but It seem that most people who approach a pagan pathway do feel there is more to the world - a mystery/magic aspect to our word but pagan approach it with different ways - the way the fits the individual  - the self identifies as.

There have been many discussions that have shown that there is little to connect pagans together as a group other than saying we are not derived from Abrahamic religions in origin. This seems leave the word pagan to have little other meaning than believe in what you want with no connection. I was wondering if  there was at least a common belief that there is a magic or mystery to our world with just different ways of approaching it. You have those that are primarily interested in the gods and goddesses as existing beings even though we cannot prove them yet there existence defies any way to prove them. There are those who identify themselves as pagan because they see a divine/spiritual aspect to nature and the would we live in even if there approach is different as in symbolic, animistic, pantheistic. They still see something more than to the world than just matter and energy that we can measure and quantify, there is some mystic connection to nature. There are also those that focus on ritual and magic in of itself and again believe that there is at least some other forces they can draw from that give the ritual meaning or allow the magic to work. Thus despite different ways of approaching our beliefs do we at least share the belief that there are forces or beings outside of measurable world that we try to connect with?

Agreed with others that your theory as stated in the last sentence would apply to most religions. Though it certainly seems to be a commonality, just a bit too broad to distinguish pagans from other groups.

It's definitely a complex subject, but I recently read Seeking the Mystery: An Introduction to Pagan Theologies by Christine Hoff Kraemer, and she listed several commonalities that might be interesting to consider. She describes them as not being defining characteristics, but rather "emergent patterns of behavior and belief" that she observes in pagan communities across varying traditions. Emphasizing that there are many who will still fall outside of these or only follow a few, she suggests that most pagans hold most of these beliefs/attitudes (I've added a couple clarifying remarks based on her descriptions):

• Pantheism, panentheism, or animism - Perceiving divinity as existing in the physical world.
• Polytheism - Regardless of how distinct/autonomous or metaphorical the gods may be perceived.
• Reverence toward nature and the body
• Reference to pre-Christian myths and traditions and/or indigenous traditions
• Ritual practice - She stresses that many pagan communities are built around shared practices rather than shared beliefs.
• Trust in personal experience as a source of divine knowledge - Rather than believing official texts and guidelines are the only way to learn of or know the divine.
• Acknowledgement of the principles of magick - Belief that "ritual acts performed with intention can alter consciousness, and therefore, reality."
• Virtue ethics - Virtues and values seen as being more important/useful than inflexible rules.
• Pluralism - Belief that other religious traditions are potentially as legitimate as their own and acknowledging that different people have different spiritual needs.

Personally, I would combine 1 and 2 - a belief in some variant of pantheism, animism, and/OR polytheism. I think that covers most bases, even non-theistic pagans who believe in an abstract divine force in nature. Rephrase 3 perhaps as something like "Value of/connection to natural forces," but I do see that in many pagan paths. 4 is definitely very common. 5 I'm not sure about, I think many pagans believe without actively practicing ritual. 6 seems very important, as it is so often intuition that leads us to seek a pagan path in the first place, and we don't have anything as concrete and detailed a the Christian Bible to tell us what to believe - we often must seek knowledge ourselves. 7 and 8 I'm iffy on, but they are certainly common. And hard rules like the Christian Ten Commandments are hard to come by in pagan religions, as far as I've seen, which makes virtue ethics a convenient alternative. I think 9 is important, as I haven't seen many (any?) pagans who think other people will burn in hell or some such thing if their beliefs aren't identical.

So. In summary, I would say most (not all) pagans are connected by belief in either multiple divine forces or divinity/spirits in nature, similarities or references to pre-Christian traditions, a tendency to seek spiritual knowledge/understanding outside of the context of official spiritual texts, and some level of acceptance of the potential validity of other people's paths.

Thanks for this.  I'd figured there was some ritual there, but wasn't sure if it was considered magical by practitioners.  Most of my Kabbalah info comes from sources like BOTA and Lon DuQuette, and I suspect the WMT variant is a little different.

And I'm pretty much ignorant when it comes to any kind of Islamic practice.

Mostly what makes that different is that prohibition on graven images. Kabbalah is such a huge variety of practices, even in purely Jewish circles that you'll get many different answers.

Not being a part of that circle of practice myself, this is an outsiders view but...
Jewish Quabalah seems to me to consider itself a mystical approach rather than a magical one, but in practice there appears to be a lot of what other magical practitioners would consider magic. I dont think practitioners would consider the practice magic, but i would guess that it's mostly a re labeling due to the anti magical bias of the "parent" faiths rather than a lack of magical practices.

And yet all the religions that are identified as part of modern paganism today emerged from that particular mess.  You want to know what they have in common?  That origin point.  That's it.  That's the clade.

If you want to talk diversification from there, well, you're not going to find more commonality in something like belief (as you appear to be seeking) from something that was never unified in belief, was not belief-based ever, and which has expanded since its origin point.

 
I disagree with you. The early beginnings were focused primarily on Greek, Roman, and Egyptian religions and did not pay much attention to other religions outside. Their view may be where is started but it is not what is fundamental today. The interest in the mysteries outside of the prevailing Christian or Abrahamic religions were also a unifying component of the early beginnings and is just as important today if not more so. Religions are about rituals or beliefs and not just social- cultural aspects. That is far to limiting.

and Freemasons

 
Woohoo!  :thup: