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Author Topic: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post  (Read 28974 times)

makaros

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Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« on: August 23, 2016, 01:37:46 pm »
Thought this was an interesting story to share.

http://wildhunt.org/2016/08/pagan-community-notes-denton-cuups-convocation-asatru-folk-assembly-and-more.html

And this one, which has commentary:  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey/2016/08/paganism-has-some-dead-ends/

From AFA's Facebook page on Sunday (8/21):  "Today we are bombarded with confusion and messages contrary to the values of our ancestors and our folk. The AFA would like to make it clear that we believe gender is not a social construct, it is a beautiful gift from the holy powers and from our ancestors. The AFA celebrates our feminine ladies, our masculine gentlemen and, above all, our beautiful white children. The children of the folk are our shining future and the legacy of all those men and women of our people back to the beginning."

Additionally, the page clarified further in response to a question that non-whites and LGBT+ people were in fact not welcome in the organization though AFA doesn't police people's bedrooms (as a gay guy I already know that dog whistle well enough).

Just wanted to post here in case there are newcomers to Heathenry who should know about a high-profile organization they might have an interest in.  Personally, as a white person dedicated to anti-racism, as someone who identifies more or less with Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, and as a gay guy, it's incredibly frustrating to find a group endorsing what amounts to Nazi-lite rhetoric disparaging those who are different.  It also boggles my mind that they seem to fail to understand not only that "white pride" is completely anachronistic to the roots they're trying to celebrate, but its history is also an ugly reaction to people of color and minority religions/cultures celebrating their heritage in a space that has historically been hostile to them (the West).

I think pagans of color and queer pagans deserve much better and I would hope we all take a moment to reject this kind of thinking out loud to others, whether it's on social media or real life.  This is a cancer to not just paganism, but human decency.

/soapbox
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 01:39:28 pm by makaroð »

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 02:26:49 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;195325
Thought this was an interesting story to share.

http://wildhunt.org/2016/08/pagan-community-notes-denton-cuups-convocation-asatru-folk-assembly-and-more.html

And this one, which has commentary:  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey/2016/08/paganism-has-some-dead-ends/

From AFA's Facebook page on Sunday (8/21):  "Today we are bombarded with confusion and messages contrary to the values of our ancestors and our folk. The AFA would like to make it clear that we believe gender is not a social construct, it is a beautiful gift from the holy powers and from our ancestors. The AFA celebrates our feminine ladies, our masculine gentlemen and, above all, our beautiful white children. The children of the folk are our shining future and the legacy of all those men and women of our people back to the beginning."

Additionally, the page clarified further in response to a question that non-whites and LGBT+ people were in fact not welcome in the organization though AFA doesn't police people's bedrooms (as a gay guy I already know that dog whistle well enough).

Just wanted to post here in case there are newcomers to Heathenry who should know about a high-profile organization they might have an interest in.  Personally, as a white person dedicated to anti-racism, as someone who identifies more or less with Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, and as a gay guy, it's incredibly frustrating to find a group endorsing what amounts to Nazi-lite rhetoric disparaging those who are different.  It also boggles my mind that they seem to fail to understand not only that "white pride" is completely anachronistic to the roots they're trying to celebrate, but its history is also an ugly reaction to people of color and minority religions/cultures celebrating their heritage in a space that has historically been hostile to them (the West).

I think pagans of color and queer pagans deserve much better and I would hope we all take a moment to reject this kind of thinking out loud to others, whether it's on social media or real life.  This is a cancer to not just paganism, but human decency.

/soapbox

 

The Troth has come out with it's own statement that rebukes the AFA for their awfulness.

http://thetroth.blogspot.no/2016/08/official-note-from-troth_22.html
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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 02:33:46 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;195325
Thought this was an interesting story to share.

Usually they try to coach their racism in more subtle terminology. Nice to see them calling their disgusting spade the spade it is.

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TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 02:37:56 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;195326
The Troth has come out with it's own statement that rebukes the AFA for their awfulness.

 
So has the American Asatru Association, on their Facebook page, at least. The AFA is getting it's ASS LIT from every corner of the Heathen community, it seems! Which is funny that they did this (not ha-ha funny, but ironic) since quite recently they had a very weird looking multi-cultural anime image for some PR thing they were doing. Níðingr, the lot of them.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 02:42:33 pm by TheRaginPagan »

Castus

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 04:45:17 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;195325
Thought this was an interesting story to share.

http://wildhunt.org/2016/08/pagan-community-notes-denton-cuups-convocation-asatru-folk-assembly-and-more.html

And this one, which has commentary:  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey/2016/08/paganism-has-some-dead-ends/

From AFA's Facebook page on Sunday (8/21):  "Today we are bombarded with confusion and messages contrary to the values of our ancestors and our folk. The AFA would like to make it clear that we believe gender is not a social construct, it is a beautiful gift from the holy powers and from our ancestors. The AFA celebrates our feminine ladies, our masculine gentlemen and, above all, our beautiful white children. The children of the folk are our shining future and the legacy of all those men and women of our people back to the beginning."

Additionally, the page clarified further in response to a question that non-whites and LGBT+ people were in fact not welcome in the organization though AFA doesn't police people's bedrooms (as a gay guy I already know that dog whistle well enough).

Just wanted to post here in case there are newcomers to Heathenry who should know about a high-profile organization they might have an interest in.  Personally, as a white person dedicated to anti-racism, as someone who identifies more or less with Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, and as a gay guy, it's incredibly frustrating to find a group endorsing what amounts to Nazi-lite rhetoric disparaging those who are different.  It also boggles my mind that they seem to fail to understand not only that "white pride" is completely anachronistic to the roots they're trying to celebrate, but its history is also an ugly reaction to people of color and minority religions/cultures celebrating their heritage in a space that has historically been hostile to them (the West).

I think pagans of color and queer pagans deserve much better and I would hope we all take a moment to reject this kind of thinking out loud to others, whether it's on social media or real life.  This is a cancer to not just paganism, but human decency.

/soapbox

 
While I don't have any problem with AFA's gender essentialism, their overt racism disappoints me.
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makaros

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 08:40:31 pm »
Quote from: Jack;195328
Usually they try to coach their racism in more subtle terminology. Nice to see them calling their disgusting spade the spade it is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Agreed.  In a way I'm glad this happened because it makes everything a lot more clear than hiding behind "folkish".  Also, it's been so nice to see so many prominent groups and people condemn it.

Quote from: Castus
While I don't have any problem with AFA's gender essentialism, their overt racism disappoints me.

I had to google the term to see what you were getting at, but I really don't think this is a case of gender essentialism.  There may be some degree of essentialism at the core, but rather I see a patriarchal attitude (boys should be ARGHH MEN! and girls should be dainty ladies~) mixed with attitudes toward transgender people that ignore the research and steps made in past decades in understanding what exactly gender is and how it comes about.  After all, someone can be a gender essentialist without necessarily trampling all over the identity of trans folks (i.e., someone can identify as a woman with all those traditional gender roles that go along with 'woman' while being born biologically male and that does not conflict with the ideas of gender essentialism), though they'd be stepping on those who don't really identify with either/any gender.

Also the clarification from them that has since been deleted seemed pretty clear that they are openly rejecting (or labeling as second-class) non-straight, non-cisgender people in addition to non-white people as a part of AFA.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 08:41:13 pm by makaroð »

TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2016, 09:07:42 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;195334
Agreed.  In a way I'm glad this happened because it makes everything a lot more clear than hiding behind "folkish".

 
Which is doubly good, because you'll still find a good number of us Heathens using the term "Folkish." But when we use it, we mean that we're about "the folk" or the people who are in our kindred - whatever they may be - and that we take a more traditional outlook on our worship and general being.

For instance you'll see a "Folkish" Heathen using a wooden or simple metal (like copper or bronze) bowl as a Hlautbowl (or offering bowl,) whereas a "Universalist" Heathen might be just fine using a Mainstays ceramic bowl. "Folkish" Heathens would be more prone to dressing in linen tunics and animal pelts for a Blót or Sumbel, whereas other Heathens would be just fine with t-shirts and jeans.

Et cetera, et cetera.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 10:09:17 pm »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;195338
Which is doubly good, because you'll still find a good number of us Heathens using the term "Folkish." But when we use it, we mean that we're about "the folk" or the people who are in our kindred - whatever they may be - and that we take a more traditional outlook on our worship and general being.

For instance you'll see a "Folkish" Heathen using a wooden or simple metal (like copper or bronze) bowl as a Hlautbowl (or offering bowl,) whereas a "Universalist" Heathen might be just fine using a Mainstays ceramic bowl. "Folkish" Heathens would be more prone to dressing in linen tunics and animal pelts for a Blót or Sumbel, whereas other Heathens would be just fine with t-shirts and jeans.

Et cetera, et cetera.


I think the issue there is that so many racists are using "Folkish" as a codeword that they've pretty much come to define the term.  To be honest, I'd be very dubious of any group or individual who described themselves as folkish to me unless I had solid proof that they were using it in the way you are.  The only real way of countering that is to aggressively try and take the term back; much like my friends in Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice have done with the term "skinhead".

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you shy away from "tribalist"?  I do get your issues with universalism (it's not really how I see Heathenry either). But the belief system you outline there is pretty much the textbook definition of what I take tribalist to mean.
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TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2016, 11:23:53 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;195339
I think the issue there is that so many racists are using "Folkish" as a codeword that they've pretty much come to define the term.


Aye, they have a pretty strong hold on it. It's still a "red flag" for a great many Heathen community sites, groups, and kindreds, but most are willing to hear a self-proclaimed "Folkish" out if there are no other red flags. While a brow-raiser, there are bigger ones out there for us.

We had a huge discussion on the AAA Facebook page, and it went fairly well. Also served to draw out some more racist people, who were Helbent on defining it as "white people only".

Quote
Out of curiosity, is there a reason you shy away from "tribalist"?


Honestly I've never heard of the term before now. But reading it, it seems to me to be more group-focused (i.e. limited to one's "tribe,") which is rendered somewhat redundant with one's local Kindred. In other words, "tribalist" seems to be more in regards to one's organization (tribe/kindred vs. association/foundation), whereas "folkish" or "universalist" refers to the manner in which one practices.

Actually, running a quick search came up with this site. By it's explanation, yes I would be a "tribalist." It clarifies:

Quote from: 'Metal Gaia'
While Universalism and Folkism are the two main spectrums of the Asatruar community, Tribalism has been suggested as a middle-ground, or a third opinion by websites such as Uppsala Online. There is a confusion of terms here because Tribalists still call themselves “Folkish” Heathens, but they typically are accepting of non-white Heathens among their ranks. They describe themselves as Folkish because they believe that there must be a deep adoption of Norse Culture in order for one to call themselves a Heathen or Asatru. They believe that anything otherwise is just a surface level adoption of Asatru. To become a Tribalist Asatru you either must have Norse/Germanic descent or you must be adopted and oathed into the community. This is similar to Judaism where one is either automatically born into the tradition via bloodline, or converted into the community.


The bolded is very much true of me and my views. I'm very much fine with anyone being a Heathen or Asatruar, but it's more than wearing a Mjolnir pendant or being a "Vikings" fan.

Castus

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 11:50:13 am »
Quote from: makaroð;195334
I had to google the term to see what you were getting at, but I really don't think this is a case of gender essentialism.  There may be some degree of essentialism at the core, but rather I see a patriarchal attitude (boys should be ARGHH MEN! and girls should be dainty ladies~) mixed with attitudes toward transgender people that ignore the research and steps made in past decades in understanding what exactly gender is and how it comes about.  After all, someone can be a gender essentialist without necessarily trampling all over the identity of trans folks (i.e., someone can identify as a woman with all those traditional gender roles that go along with 'woman' while being born biologically male and that does not conflict with the ideas of gender essentialism), though they'd be stepping on those who don't really identify with either/any gender.

Also the clarification from them that has since been deleted seemed pretty clear that they are openly rejecting (or labeling as second-class) non-straight, non-cisgender people in addition to non-white people as a part of AFA.

I should have been more clear.

I have no problem with the AFA's statement "we believe gender is not a social construct, it is a beautiful gift from the holy powers and from our ancestors." I have no problem with the AFA denying membership to 'non-cisgender' people either; it is only natural that an organisation which denies transgenderism's validity (i.e. one which believes that there are only two genders/sexes, and that sex and gender at birth correspond) would not allow openly transgender members. I myself do not believe in more than two genders, and I consider identifying as other than the gender you are born with to be, to borrow from Catholic parlance, 'gravely disordered'. Therefore AFA's position doesn't phase me.
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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 12:36:00 pm »
Quote from: Castus;195355
I should have been more clear.

I myself do not believe in more than two genders, and I consider identifying as other than the gender you are born with to be, to borrow from Catholic parlance, 'gravely disordered'. Therefore AFA's position doesn't phase me.

If there are only 2 genders, and you can only identify as the one you were "born with" where does that leave intersex individuals?
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2016, 12:51:13 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;195356
If there are only 2 genders, and you can only identify as the one you were "born with" where does that leave intersex individuals?

 
As the unfortunate exception to the rule.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

Redfaery

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2016, 01:08:28 pm »
Quote from: Castus;195357
As the unfortunate exception to the rule.
Why "unfortunate"?
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 01:12:25 pm »
Quote from: makaroð;195325
Thought this was an interesting story to share.

http://wildhunt.org/2016/08/pagan-community-notes-denton-cuups-convocation-asatru-folk-assembly-and-more.html

And this one, which has commentary:  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey/2016/08/paganism-has-some-dead-ends/

From AFA's Facebook page on Sunday (8/21):  "Today we are bombarded with confusion and messages contrary to the values of our ancestors and our folk. The AFA would like to make it clear that we believe gender is not a social construct, it is a beautiful gift from the holy powers and from our ancestors. The AFA celebrates our feminine ladies, our masculine gentlemen and, above all, our beautiful white children. The children of the folk are our shining future and the legacy of all those men and women of our people back to the beginning."

Additionally, the page clarified further in response to a question that non-whites and LGBT+ people were in fact not welcome in the organization though AFA doesn't police people's bedrooms (as a gay guy I already know that dog whistle well enough).

Just wanted to post here in case there are newcomers to Heathenry who should know about a high-profile organization they might have an interest in.  Personally, as a white person dedicated to anti-racism, as someone who identifies more or less with Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, and as a gay guy, it's incredibly frustrating to find a group endorsing what amounts to Nazi-lite rhetoric disparaging those who are different.  It also boggles my mind that they seem to fail to understand not only that "white pride" is completely anachronistic to the roots they're trying to celebrate, but its history is also an ugly reaction to people of color and minority religions/cultures celebrating their heritage in a space that has historically been hostile to them (the West).

I think pagans of color and queer pagans deserve much better and I would hope we all take a moment to reject this kind of thinking out loud to others, whether it's on social media or real life.  This is a cancer to not just paganism, but human decency.

/soapbox

Here is the official response to that post from our Asatru group:

"Contrary to Matt Flavel's statement, anthropologists and social scientists do look at gender through the lens of social constructions. We may be born with the genetic combination that is male or female with the possibility of additional variations of the way X and/or Y chromosome combine; but social and cultural integration and definition of the result begin at birth. The experience of being male or female can vary tremendously depending on the culture that one is born into. The "construction" of a perception of self and others in terms of cultural and social roles and expectations is part of acquiring an ethnic identity.

The Irminsul Aettir defines Ásatrú as an ethnic religion; one that is based on the shared cultural perceptions of a specific group of people, in a particular place and time, those of the pre-conversion Old Norse and Germanic people. Modern archaeology is finding that our modern perceptions of those people who many of us may claim as ancestors are just that, modern. Graves that were assumed for decades to be male or female according to our modern perceptions of what was appropriate to be buried with a males or females are now being found to be mistaken as the ability to test for genetic identification improves. Genetics are simply a part of an ethnic identity of which coloring and sex are a matter of birth and not cultural or even ethnic identity. Archaeology and genetics show that those people we accept as spiritual ancestors included people from other parts of the world bringing with them minor genetic differences such as skin color.

If one accepts the stories of the Aesir and Vanir as having relevance to the beliefs of those people we find nothing strange in Thor defending the need to fight against women as equal foes, or even dressing as a woman despite the fact he recognized that he would be called less than manly, or accepting the help and gifts from a woman. We do not condemn the slight that Loki cast on Odin for dressing and dancing as “a woman” or knowing seidh. There are many who accept Loki even though he shape-shifted and became pregnant female. One of the earliest translated sagas was that of Hervor, a woman that undertook a journey that few men would have taken on and fought as a warrior. We have stories of those that practiced seidh, both male and female, who were a part of that ethnic and cultural identity. Obviously they were not accepted by some, while others had no objection and told heroic stories about them.

There is no confusion if one is willingly to look beyond ones prejudices and emotionally invested biases to at least attempt to cut through confusion with logic and knowledge. Ásatrú is not about having white children, or clinging to outmoded, 19th century dogma that was meant to bolster the creation of national identities. It about engendering knowledge of the gods and the people who worshipped them and the ways that honor that connection and shared faith.

Susan Granquist, Drottning and High Gydia of the Irminsul Aettir."
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:13:36 pm by SunflowerP »

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2016, 02:44:24 pm »
Quote from: Castus;195355
I should have been more clear.

I have no problem with the AFA's statement "we believe gender is not a social construct, it is a beautiful gift from the holy powers and from our ancestors." I have no problem with the AFA denying membership to 'non-cisgender' people either; it is only natural that an organisation which denies transgenderism's validity (i.e. one which believes that there are only two genders/sexes, and that sex and gender at birth correspond) would not allow openly transgender members. I myself do not believe in more than two genders, and I consider identifying as other than the gender you are born with to be, to borrow from Catholic parlance, 'gravely disordered'. Therefore AFA's position doesn't phase me.
Can you please tell me directly that I'm gravely disordered so I can put it in my signature? :)

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Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

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