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Author Topic: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post  (Read 28979 times)

Jack

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2016, 09:09:34 am »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;195454
A (mostly) rhetorical question: Why are you making someone else's gender identity about your perception of them? It's not about you, the male, the gaze. How someone identifies is how they identify, end of story. Your perception of how someone fits into your worldview has no bearing on how they understand themselves.

If this was Tumblr I'd be inserting five THIS gifs here.

As usual, most of this discussion about transgender identity has been about the feelings of cis people on the subject, though, so it's consistent.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2016, 09:17:02 am »
Quote from: Allaya;195461
The whole purpose of Godwin's Law is to stop folks from hyperbolicly bringing up Nazis and related topics as a reducto ad Hitlerum.

Addditionally, it's generally held that whomever it is that Godwins a thread automatically loses whatever the debate was centered on.

I must say, I am thoroughly entertained in a trainwreck kind of way by the flippancy of trying to cast it as an argument itself.
The internet has come full circle. Happy 25th birthday, internet!

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2016, 09:31:53 am »
Quote from: Morag;195444
My husband, whom I adore, is a beautiful cis man.  

There, now you have seen it used positively. (and it's been used neutrally several times in this thread and on this forum as a whole.)
So my UU church sent out their membership survey and I did it last night and I was pleased to note that they asked for "gender identity" instead of gender and offered five options: cisgender male, cisgender female, transgender male, transgender female, and other with a box to write in. I'm hoping for a genderqueer or nonbinary option as a non-writein option next year but it is a huge step forward from last year and made me feel a lot more included and welcome.

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TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2016, 10:43:44 am »
Quote from: Morag;195450
It's funny that you immediately leaped to the swastika, because that symbol has been used worldwide by many cultures since before the Nazis appropriated it...


Believe me, I am more than aware of this. The point being (and this goes for statements on page 8 pursuant to this example) that no matter how much back history the symbol has, no matter how much research we do about it or post-WWII movement to try and reclaim it, in general if someone is seen on the streets of Western cultures with a swastika (or even a swastika-like) image on their person, it's going to be assumed that they're a neo-Nazi. The symbol is sullied; I have seen and experienced this and not just in America.

Tying that in with my personal sentiments towards the term "cis," no matter how many good or neutral uses I see and hear on this forum, no matter the understanding of it's etymology or use at inception, I still do not like it for reasons that I've given.

Quote
So if you're going to compare "cis" with the swastika (and can I just say: seriously? that really seemed like a good idea?) maybe you could also learn to not have a knee-jerk reaction to a word that is literally just a descriptive because some people are jerks about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Gotta be honest, what I'm getting from this (and other comments) is the general narrative that my preference (for my own person, even, not in broad generality of "everyone like me") isn't valid enough, is nothing but "knee-jerk", and requires me to "move on.org". Regardless of the density of my skin and sensibilities, "Respect my self-identity, but your self-identity is your poor fee-fees being hurt" is hypocrisy. Plain and simple.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2016, 10:48:36 am »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;195454
A (mostly) rhetorical question: Why are you making someone else's gender identity about your perception of them?


To attempt to illustrate that society only knows first what is seen. The example would have worked with a trans-man as well. For someone just walking about, we don't see the multitude of gender identities. We see male or female, even if they have had a sex change operation. It's not just my world view, it's everyone's, and I would certainly argue that it does affect how people understand themselves. If someone identifies as female, but society sees them as male, would they not try to change their appearance - either temporarily or permanently - to rectify that misperception?

TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2016, 10:53:03 am »
Quote from: Jack;195463
most of this discussion about transgender identity has been about the feelings of cis people on the subject

 
I would say more the attempts of a non-trans to understand the culture. I have no feelings of note towards transgender identity, but it's clear there's a great deal to be made aware of when online.

Jack

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2016, 10:56:13 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;195472
I would say more the attempts of a non-trans to understand the culture. I have no feelings of note towards transgender identity, but it's clear there's a great deal to be made aware of when online.
Trying to understand the culture by talking about how you don't like the sound of the prefix cis, comparing it to the swastika, and talking about how you react to people on the street that you interpret as transgender women.

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Castus

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2016, 11:01:14 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;195423
Hanging this here because I came across a couple of interesting links today.  

The first discusses how classical Judaism actually has six genders.

The second, Gender Identity in Halakhic Discourse, goes a long way in unpacking the terminology discussed in the first link.

Castus, given that your professed religion is Judaism I figured these'd be of interest to you.  No idea if this info is new to you, but it is new to me, and quite fascinating.

 
This info is very new to me, thank you!

Jack, it appears that you may not be disordered at all.
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Allaya

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2016, 11:50:03 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;195469
Tying that in with my personal sentiments towards the term "cis," no matter how many good or neutral uses I see and hear on this forum, no matter the understanding of it's etymology or use at inception, I still do not like it for reasons that I've given.


Which is, as you stated, because it sounds like cyst. That's taking the whole 'everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten' thing to a bit of an extreme.

Quote
"Respect my self-identity, but your self-identity is your poor fee-fees being hurt" is hypocrisy. Plain and simple.

 
Less hypocrisy and more failed reading comprehension on your part. You seem to have a great deal of difficulty reading peoples' words for what the person writing them means as opposed to what you want them to mean so that you can continue with, as you have charmingly labeled it, your 'narrative'.

You're starting to bring political keywords into this and have purposely Godwin'd the thread. This is why we can't have nice things.
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Jack

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2016, 12:34:40 pm »
Quote from: Castus;195474
This info is very new to me, thank you!

Jack, it appears that you may not be disordered at all.
You wouldn't say that if you could see my home office. XD

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Castus

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #85 on: August 26, 2016, 02:14:53 pm »
Quote from: Jack;195478
You wouldn't say that if you could see my home office. XD

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Touche.
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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #86 on: August 26, 2016, 08:24:53 pm »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;195454
Great point! And there are people out there who reject that binary. As they live in that spectrum between those two binaries, they may identify as gender fluid, or genderqueer, etc.


Of course, a great many nonbinary and/or genderqueer people also identify as transgender, since their gender identity is different from the gender they were assigned at birth. 'Trans' is only a binary word indicating 'transitioning to the "opposite" gender' to those who perceive M/F to be both innate and oppositional; GQ/NB folks don't perceive gender that way, so most GQ/NB critique of 'cis/trans' is not about the terms themselves, but about them being deployed binarily. (Intersex folks' critiques of 'cis/trans' tend to be similar: it's not the terms themselves, but people deploying them in a way that erases intersex experiences.)

Quote
A (mostly) rhetorical question: Why are you making someone else's gender identity about your perception of them? It's not about you, the male, the gaze. How someone identifies is how they identify, end of story. Your perception of how someone fits into your worldview has no bearing on how they understand themselves.

 
This, exactly.

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TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #87 on: August 26, 2016, 08:53:41 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;195475
Less hypocrisy and more failed reading comprehension on your part.


In addition to what you said above this - the whole kindergarten bit - I don't think it's possible to misread:

Quote from: Allaya;195415
So, basically, a latin prefix hurts your fee-fees.

 
I can only imagine how much more worse the shit-storm would have been had I met the sentiments towards my statements about Caitlyn with the same sort of dismissal.

I'm going to go talk about Heathen things now. Toodles.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2016, 01:08:50 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;195487
I can only imagine how much more worse the shit-storm would have been had I met the sentiments towards my statements about Caitlyn with the same sort of dismissal.
.

You kinda did? Which is what it was intended to point out. It is a pity that you've fixated on a single word among many interesting and useful ones in this thread.  

Quote
I'm going to go talk about Heathen things now. Toodles.


I don't know if you've noticed, but this IS a Heathen topic and we're in the Heathenry and Asatru section. I dunno how much more Heathen you want. Seriously.
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Jack

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2016, 02:41:21 am »
Quote from: Allaya;195497
I don't know if you've noticed, but this IS a Heathen topic and we're in the Heathenry and Asatru section. I dunno how much more Heathen you want. Seriously.

You can tell it's a thread about heathenry because Bob posted in it, even.

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