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Author Topic: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)  (Read 3692 times)

Merin

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Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« on: August 21, 2016, 12:26:21 am »
My partner and I have been discussing the topic of racism in pagan circles (he prefers the term "heritage exclusive").  I have tried to explain to him that most folks in the community feel that pagans are called to the culture of their choice/the Deities of their "choice" from the heart and not from heritage or blood.  He thinks that Celtic based pagans tend to be exclusive to non-Celts. And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist.  Why is a "watchdog group needed?"  

*sighs*  Halp??
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 12:28:54 am by Merin »

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 02:10:55 am »
Quote from: Merin;195222
My partner and I have been discussing the topic of racism in pagan circles (he prefers the term "heritage exclusive").  I have tried to explain to him that most folks in the community feel that pagans are called to the culture of their choice/the Deities of their "choice" from the heart and not from heritage or blood.  He thinks that Celtic based pagans tend to be exclusive to non-Celts. And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist.  Why is a "watchdog group needed?"  

*sighs*  Halp??

 
I'm immediately forced to wonder why he feels it necessary to obscure the notion of racism by rebadging it as the much softer and more comfortable "heritage exclusive". Racism is an inherently uncomfortable topic, but I've found that most folks can have an adult discussion about it without resorting to euphemisms.

Would he be so accommodating if one were to have a neighborhood church declare itself to be "heritage exclusive". Sorry, but you're Chinese-American so you can't worship here. Your white girlfriend can come in, though.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
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People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Merin

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2016, 02:17:58 am »
Quote from: Allaya;195225
I'm immediately forced to wonder why he feels it necessary to obscure the notion of racism by rebadging it as the much softer and more comfortable "heritage exclusive". Racism is an inherently uncomfortable topic, but I've found that most folks can have an adult discussion about it without resorting to euphemisms.

Would he be so accommodating if one were to have a neighborhood church declare itself to be "heritage exclusive". Sorry, but you're Chinese-American so you can't worship here. Your white girlfriend can come in, though.

 

I think to differentiate (and therefore more precise) between racism based on race and exclusion based on culture.

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2016, 03:32:28 am »
Quote from: Merin;195226
I think to differentiate (and therefore more precise) between racism based on race and exclusion based on culture.

 
Yet race and culture are often inextricably bound together. I've encountered quite a bit of "but but but CULTURE" as a dogwhistle for Whites Only in Nordic and Celtic contexts.

I'm not really sure what to make of the 'why are watchdog groups even needed' thing. It's difficult to guess what some peoples' reasons are, but damn does that rabbithole go to some ugly places rather fast.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Merlick

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2016, 07:47:10 am »
Quote from: Merin;195222
I have tried to explain to him that most folks in the community feel that pagans are called to the culture of their choice/the Deities of their "choice" from the heart and not from heritage or blood.


While I think that the gods choose whom they want (and the person can choose to either heed or ignor this calling) some beliefs are liklier to to be found amongst people ethnically closer to it or living in a certain area or environment, not neccessarily both.

This has nothing to do with racism but rather with coincidence because first of all, you have to be introduced to a belief and this usually happens through culture. It starts with the stories and fairy tales you grow up with, the traditions of the area where you live and the values you're taught.

Someone living in africa is unlikely to have heard of any celtic, nordic or slavic gods as a child and he/she might never have listened to stories about dragons, mermaids and elves although with modern technology I might be mistaken.

On the other hand, someone of australian, chinese or indian decent, born in europe will likely have grown up with these stories and therefor already have a certain connection to them. So the chances of this person becoming a celtic, nordic or slavic pagan are fairly higher.

Quote from: Merin;195222
And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist. Why is a "watchdog group needed?"


I don't know how it is in other countries but I've never heard of the "watchdog gropu" in Germany. I think it's because we don't want to be seen as nazis most of us react kind of allergic to racists and don't tolerate that kind of behaviour in serious pagan groups.

Of course there are also those "white only" or "German only" groups but in most cases their intentions are less spiritual and more like "let's beat someone up"

Quote from: Allaya;195222
Would he be so accommodating if one were to have a neighborhood church declare itself to be "heritage exclusive". Sorry, but you're Chinese-American so you can't worship here. Your white girlfriend can come in, though.


Now that was a good one! Christianity might have spread all over the globe but it's still a religion of middle eastern origin. Just think about it. Probably non of us have the "right" heritage to be christians if belief was somehow connected to heritage. Now that would be quite an empty church.

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2016, 09:52:59 am »
Quote from: Merin;195226
I think to differentiate (and therefore more precise) between racism based on race and exclusion based on culture.

 
Given that modern pagan religions are not actually cultural religions - though some incorporate local folklore and have some continuity with that - because they were all constructed within the last hundred fifty years or so, the technical term for that differentiation is "self-serving racist bullshit".
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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2016, 09:54:56 am »
Quote from: Merin;195226
I think to differentiate (and therefore more precise) between racism based on race and exclusion based on culture.

 
Possibly that provides a brief, simple answer for, 'Why do groups like CAORANN exist?': because not everyone differentiates that way.

As Allaya notes, those who are, as your partner puts it, 'heritage exclusive', seldom use 'culture' to mean 'the customs a person was raised with'; they nearly always mean, 'the customs of a person's ancestors, however distant'. That means their exclusions are based less on the person's actual culture. and more on the notion that 'culture' is somehow genetically transmitted. And that's basically racism, however much it's prettied-up, and however carefully the word 'race' is avoided.

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2016, 10:01:49 am »
Quote from: Allaya;195227
Yet race and culture are often inextricably bound together. I've encountered quite a bit of "but but but CULTURE" as a dogwhistle for Whites Only in Nordic and Celtic contexts.

And that "culture" somehow is transmitted through bloodlines even in the absence of an actual practiced living culture ongoing, magically.  But vanishes if those bloodlines don't have the right appearance.  It's 100% a race thing.

(I have observed that a white person with no Scandanavian heritage is more acceptable to that ilk than a black person with Scandanavian heritage or a black person raised familiar with Scandanavian folklore.  So much for "culture", or the illusion of "it's not about race".)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 10:03:08 am by Darkhawk »
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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2016, 11:02:27 am »
Quote from: Merin;195222
My partner and I have been discussing the topic of racism in pagan circles (he prefers the term "heritage exclusive").


Which is, y'know, very close to the term "white nationalist" in many ways. And that's a self-identifier entirely used by political racists. At the very least, "racially exclusive" strikes me as more accurate than "heritage exclusive" as that is what we're talking about.

Quote
He thinks that Celtic based pagans tend to be exclusive to non-Celts.


The important question there is what he means by that. Exclusivity per se isn't the issue here.  Actually, because I'm not especially attached to Celtic culture, I wouldn't be compatible with a Celtic based group.  And my Celtic (Scots) ancestry can be traced back generations; I have an ancestral clan and everything.

I've linked Wayland Skallagrimsson's "Racism is Asatru" article on here before, but I think you'll find it really useful - http://www.uppsalaonline.com/racism.htm

I'm not pretending that I'm that knowledgeable about Celtic Paganism.  But I do know a bit about the far right. And from what I've seen, the vast majority of Celtic Pagans are exclusive in a tribalist way, not a folkish one.

As an aside that article illustrates both a) the fact that I do actually think that Asatru has more of a problem here than many paths and b) why most of the best anti fascist pagans/heathens I've met have been Asatru.

Quote
And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist.  Why is a "watchdog group needed?"  


Why is any anti racist group or anti fascist group needed?  Because it's not an issue that should be ignored.

In terms of paganism specifically, there's enough for a far right presence in some quarters to take the issue seriously.

The vast minority of Pagans are not racists, at least no more then you'd find in wider society.

But Pagans are overly prone to fluffy "all opinions are equally valid" relativism, a fear of excluding anyone, "hating Nazis makes you as bad as them!" and simple political cowardice on this issue.

And that's why these groups are even more needed.  Because this boil has been left to fester instead of being lanced.  If people had taken this with the proper degree of seriousness when it first started being noticed, it would be a far more minor problem now.

That's not to say that I have no criticisms of CAORANN.  In particular, their analysis of fascism is pretty superficial.

Which leads to them not quite seeming to get that Nazism is a subset of fascism rather than another way of saying the same thing. They also have a tendency to treat anti-fascism as an offshoot of anti racism.  It's not the same thing;  fascism frequently utilises racism as a political tactic and individual fascists are generally also racists.  But it's a political ideology in its own right and needs opposing on that basis.

But those are pretty minor criticisms overall.  I'd still much rather CAORANN was actually doing something, even if there are certain niggles. It's certainly more effective than the apparent favoured pagan tactic of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la not listening" whenever this subject is raised.

Besides, it kinda feels like it would be overstepping the bounds if I tried to offer an advice to a path quite so different from my own.
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Allaya

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2016, 12:17:11 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;195236
And that "culture" somehow is transmitted through bloodlines even in the absence of an actual practiced living culture ongoing, magically.  But vanishes if those bloodlines don't have the right appearance.  It's 100% a race thing.

(I have observed that a white person with no Scandanavian heritage is more acceptable to that ilk than a black person with Scandanavian heritage or a black person raised familiar with Scandanavian folklore.  So much for "culture", or the illusion of "it's not about race".)

 
Thank you for continuing my line of thought with your own thoughts. I couldn't quite get there this morning, having posted from a tablet while still in bed and very much uncaffeinated.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Darkhawk

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2016, 01:59:31 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;195243
Thank you for continuing my line of thought with your own thoughts. I couldn't quite get there this morning, having posted from a tablet while still in bed and very much uncaffeinated.

 
My sympathies.  I've had a desperately undercaffeinated few days m'self.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2016, 05:07:10 pm »
Quote from: Merin;195222
My partner and I have been discussing the topic of racism in pagan circles (he prefers the term "heritage exclusive").  I have tried to explain to him that most folks in the community feel that pagans are called to the culture of their choice/the Deities of their "choice" from the heart and not from heritage or blood.  He thinks that Celtic based pagans tend to be exclusive to non-Celts. And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist.  Why is a "watchdog group needed?"  

*sighs*  Halp??

 
Which pagan religion would suit Americans, in that case?

TheRaginPagan

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2016, 05:34:12 pm »
Quote from: Merin;195222
My partner and I have been discussing the topic of racism in pagan circles (he prefers the term "heritage exclusive").

 
Going with my own experiences in the Heathen community, I find myself agreeing with him - in a way - with what is found in the vast majority of the Heathen community (as we seem to be the focus, more or less, here,) is not "racism", but beliefs structured around a given culture.

I saw it remarked on another thread that "racism" as a social term has become to mean "anything disagreeable that a white person does." Sadly, I find myself agreeing with this. The Oxford English Dictionary (my go-to) defines racism as "the unfair treatment of people who belong to a different race; violent behavior towards them / the belief that some races of people are better than others". Now, while some might disagree, a Korean Baptist Church denying membership to any Baptist that is not Korean (and I've seen this happen in my old town,) isn't so much racism as it is... cultural exclusion. There were plenty of other Baptist churches around, and ones that didn't hold service in Korean. Which is why no one really applied to that church aside from Koreans.

So how does this apply to Paganism?

I am more than aware that we - specifically the Heathen community - have a problem with racists and white supremacists. I am aware that there are unfair opinions and statements out there. However, the adherence to "Nordic culture" and all that entails does not automatically account for racism.

The first thing that pops into my mind in which the HC has been put under fire (that I've witnessed) was when Marvel's Thor came out. Yes, we knew it was entertainment, fiction based on our Gods, and subject to artistic license. Yet even still there were some (and I will admit, I was one of them) who were still uncomfortable with Heimdall being depicted by a black man. Make no mistake, he did a fantastic job in the role, but culturally Heimdall is not black; in fact, he is described as the whitest of the Aesir! Now, I know, "but they're gods; they can look however they want!" If you believe that, that's fine and that's your view. But for myself and most of the Heathens that I've met, that's not a common belief or argument.

To have a faith culture built around a given culture, and should that culture be predominantly white in both demographic and mythology does not make it racist. Example: Asatru (and Heathenry as a whole) is open to all races, genders, and sexualities. The few who actually are racist don't speak for the whole. I've met Mexican Heathens that, while still very nationally Mexican, didn't depict the Norse Gods in an Aztec fashion, they didn't rename them something truer to their nationality; they stuck with the Norse culture, as those were the Gods they came to worship.

That is what is meant by beliefs structured around a given culture, or as your partner put it "cultural exclusion." It is not to say "You can't believe this, because you're from [insert country here]," but more "If this is what you're going to ally yourself with, this is what it is; we are not [insert differing culture here]"

As many have stated here, I don't believe it has much to do with one's race at all. Heritage... for a religion that includes ancestor worship and veneration, that could be something important, but not necessary. A person with zero Norse ancestry could still worship the land wights and the Gods as they see fit. So in that regard I agree with much of what's been said.

However, I don't believe that a religious culture should bend to losing its identity just to satisfy a modern need to be Politically Correct. Nor do I believe that such an upholding should be decried as racism, unless there is actually some form of harm being done. And if it is to be considered racist, then I would wonder what it would be called if a white man born and raised in America tried worshiping Kanati, named him "Kletus the Hunter" and depicted him with a .22 rather than a bow and arrow.

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2016, 05:46:40 pm »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;195262
The first thing that pops into my mind in which the HC has been put under fire (that I've witnessed) was when Marvel's Thor came out. Yes, we knew it was entertainment, fiction based on our Gods, and subject to artistic license. Yet even still there were some (and I will admit, I was one of them) who were still uncomfortable with Heimdall being depicted by a black man. Make no mistake, he did a fantastic job in the role, but culturally Heimdall is not black; in fact, he is described as the whitest of the Aesir! Now, I know, "but they're gods; they can look however they want!" If you believe that, that's fine and that's your view. But for myself and most of the Heathens that I've met, that's not a common belief or argument.

It's a reasonable argument. However, it does raise an eyebrow when people object to a black Heimdall, yet were seemingly unbothered by that time Marvel decided to make Thor a frog...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 05:47:13 pm by Jabberwocky »
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TheRaginPagan

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2016, 06:01:09 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;195263
It's a reasonable argument. However, it does raise an eyebrow when people object to a black Heimdall, yet were seemingly unbothered by that time Marvel decided to make Thor a frog...

 
Oh, believe me, on a certain level that bothered me too. And Beta Ray Bill. And "Fem-Thor". The idea in general that Thor as a God is determined by whoever holds Mjolnir struck a dischord with me; namely because those questions started popping up in conversations in a few Heathen groups that I was in at the time. Once we even had to shoot down a scheme to become Thor by harnessing the power of lightning generation, which this individual saw as the closest one could get to wielding Mjolnir.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 06:01:56 pm by TheRaginPagan »

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