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Author Topic: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)  (Read 3768 times)

Jack

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2016, 11:15:01 pm »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;195266
Oh, believe me, on a certain level that bothered me too. And Beta Ray Bill. And "Fem-Thor". The idea in general that Thor as a God is determined by whoever holds Mjolnir struck a dischord with me; namely because those questions started popping up in conversations in a few Heathen groups that I was in at the time. Once we even had to shoot down a scheme to become Thor by harnessing the power of lightning generation, which this individual saw as the closest one could get to wielding Mjolnir.

Aw, come on, Thor wearing a dress is totally canon, Jane-as-Thor isn't that far off.

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Starlight

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2016, 04:44:18 am »
Quote from: Merin;195222
He thinks that Celtic based pagans tend to be exclusive to non-Celts. And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist.  Why is a "watchdog group needed?"  

*sighs*  Halp??

I haven't read too far into this thread, so I'm just responding to the OP's post.

From my understanding of the group CAORANN - I went to their homepage to double check and be sure - they're against cultural theft and the introduction of any traditions and practices from closed cultures (Native American in particular) into Celtic Polytheism, particularly when the peoples of those cultures have asked that those who are using the practices stop.

I don't think it's about prohibiting anyone from immersing themselves in Celtic Polytheism, so much as standing against the idea of taking practices from other cultures to stick under the Celtic umbrella.

They are Celtic Reconstructionists so they use the available material from the different Celtic regions to reconstruct what they can about Celtic beliefs and practices. They don't encourage people to "fill in the blanks" by borrowing from outside sources, such as from the NA peoples.

Hope this helps somewhat to alleviate your partner's concerns.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 04:46:20 am by Starlight »
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Allaya

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2016, 02:31:09 pm »
Quote from: Merin;195222
Why is a "watchdog group needed?"


This right here is why.  http://ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?13959-Asatru-Folk-Assembly-racist-and-transphobic-post

Awful people do and say awful things. Sometimes under the banner of religion. Others who do not want to be associated with said awful people form groups or use their already existing groups to counter the awfulness.

Awfulness tends to spread if left unchallenged. We're seeing this all over the world. The pendulum is swinging again.
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No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Revanche

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2016, 11:42:24 pm »
Quote from: Merin;195222
My partner and I have been discussing the topic of racism in pagan circles (he prefers the term "heritage exclusive").  I have tried to explain to him that most folks in the community feel that pagans are called to the culture of their choice/the Deities of their "choice" from the heart and not from heritage or blood.  He thinks that Celtic based pagans tend to be exclusive to non-Celts. And he asks me why groups like CAORANN (Celts Against Oppression Racism and Neo Nazism) exist.  Why is a "watchdog group needed?"  

*sighs*  Halp??

 
I'm not too familiar with the Celtic tradition, but I can kind of speak to this from my experience in finding my own path as a person from a mixed ethnic background (Egyptian/Slavic) that isn't necessarily reflected in my religious practice (eclectic, with Kemetic, Norse, and Hellenic influence).

On the one hand, I've had very bad experiences with white Kemetic Reconstructionists who, upon finding out that I'm Egyptian, treat me like a quaint curiosity at best, or treat me with the same racism and xenophobia I've experienced for my background elsewhere post-9/11 at worst. And yet, despite their behaviour, I don't think I could bring myself to lash out at them specifically for doing their own thing and worshipping the gods that I consider to be my ancestral deities, because who am I to say they didn't feel called to them the way I did to deities like Dionysus, Loki, or Freyja, who I have no ethnic connection to at all? If the worship of Aset or Cybele came to spread across the Roman world in antiquity, far beyond their origins and long before the advent of mass media and the Internet, I think it's pretty safe to say that expecting people to stick solely to the gods of their ancestors in this globalized age isn't going to happen (nor should it).

Any discussion of the issue of cultural/religious appropriation does tend to bring out the people defending ethnically exclusionary practices as "cultural preservation" or any of the other weasel words that basically mean "white people only". The whole spiel about racism = power + privilege applies here, especially when it's, say, white people carelessly appropriating the practices of First Nations/Native American tribes when the privileged position of white people in North America was built partially on the oppression of the native peoples, including the suppression of their indigenous religions, forced conversion to Christianity, residential schools, etc. Not exactly the same thing as a non-white person with no Scandinavian or Celtic ancestry feeling called to Asatru or Celtic polytheism - in that case, nobody is affected negatively by it. It doesn't dilute the richness of Norse religion in any way if a person not of Scandinavian descent practices it, nor does it uncomfortably echo a history of oppression.

There's also the fact that none of these cultures were ever isolated historically, and "cultural/ethnic purity" is a myth concocted to justify fascism and oppression. The Roman Empire was extremely diverse, for one (you'd have to be if your empire spread across three continents), and the Vikings sailed to lands as far afield as the Americas, North Africa, Greenland, Turkey, etc. -  I find it hard to believe that /none/ of them intermingled and intermarried and adopted the practices of the myriad of peoples they met there (not to mention the Saami and other indigenous groups from Scandinavia, Siberia, etc.)

To circle back to the original question, some degree of intra-community self-policing is needed because unfortunately, as with all belief systems, people exist who will abuse religion to further their own bigotry and hatred, and those people sadly have a very loud voice. The only way it can stop is if we as a community soundly reject it, plain and simple. You need to show these people, as well as people within the community who might be targets of that racism and are seeking a place where they can be safe from it, that hatred has no place here. I know a lot of people of the "all opinions are valid" ilk who just kind of sit in silence when this stuff happens, and all that does is allow hatred to fester if racists don't see some sort of repercussions when their words and actions hurt other people, in their community or outside of it.

Merin

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Re: Question about Racism and Paganism (Trigger Warning!)
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 12:23:39 am »
Quote from: Revanche;195840
.

 

I am hanging this post here, but I am replying to the thread as a whole.

Thank you very much for all of your input.  So far I have only skimmed the responses, but I want to take the time to read each one deeply and have my partner do the same.  You all have made some really great points, and I am very grateful.

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