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Author Topic: Advice needed: white sage leaves  (Read 3103 times)

Starlight

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Advice needed: white sage leaves
« on: August 07, 2016, 08:31:48 am »
Hi everyone, I'm looking for advice on how best and respectfully to deal with some white sage leaves I purchased a couple of years ago.

Between one thing and another, I recently discovered the whole area of cultural/religious appropriation and the concept of open/closed religions, and learned that white sage is sacred to some Native American religions and is used in a very specific way.

Because they have asked that white sage not be used outside their tradition, I won't be burning the leaves any more for space clearing purposes - there are other methods I can use.

My question is now, what should I do with the white sage leaves? What is an appropriately respectful way to let them go?

Thank you for your help.
What you seek is seeking you. - Rumi

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Allaya

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2016, 10:23:56 am »
Quote from: Starlight;194775
Hi everyone, I'm looking for advice on how best and respectfully to deal with some white sage leaves I purchased a couple of years ago.

Between one thing and another, I recently discovered the whole area of cultural/religious appropriation and the concept of open/closed religions, and learned that white sage is sacred to some Native American religions and is used in a very specific way.

Because they have asked that white sage not be used outside their tradition, I won't be burning the leaves any more for space clearing purposes - there are other methods I can use.

My question is now, what should I do with the white sage leaves? What is an appropriately respectful way to let them go?

Thank you for your help.

 
As far as I know, it's the use of white sage in burned form for the purposes of smudging (and the term smudging itself) that is the problem.

My suggestion to you would be to use it for something that isn't burning and isn't for space-clearing. Simple as that. The Salvia plant genus has been used in numerous cultures for numerous purposes (both magical and mundane) and in numerous modalities of use.
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Starlight

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2016, 11:25:49 am »
Quote from: Allaya;194777
As far as I know, it's the use of white sage in burned form for the purposes of smudging (and the term smudging itself) that is the problem.

My suggestion to you would be to use it for something that isn't burning and isn't for space-clearing. Simple as that. The Salvia plant genus has been used in numerous cultures for numerous purposes (both magical and mundane) and in numerous modalities of use.

 
Thank you. If I understand what you've written correctly, you're saying not to burn it at all, but that it's ok to use it in a different way. I'll go do some research on non-burning uses of sage. Thank you again, Allaya.
What you seek is seeking you. - Rumi

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mortarandpestle

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2016, 08:42:54 pm »
Quote from: Starlight;194775
Hi everyone, I'm looking for advice on how best and respectfully to deal with some white sage leaves I purchased a couple of years ago.

Between one thing and another, I recently discovered the whole area of cultural/religious appropriation and the concept of open/closed religions, and learned that white sage is sacred to some Native American religions and is used in a very specific way.

Because they have asked that white sage not be used outside their tradition, I won't be burning the leaves any more for space clearing purposes - there are other methods I can use.

My question is now, what should I do with the white sage leaves? What is an appropriately respectful way to let them go?

Thank you for your help.


Thank you for bringing up this issue. I've never thought of it this way. Some traditions or rituals are sacred in cultures and/or religions that I do not  know much about.  I would  not like to disrespect another tradition by  using  it  in my ritual.  I also have a bundle of white sage that I have not burned.    
     What are your resources for this information?   I  would like to research this further.   I am wondering  if    someone says not to burn it is because  white sage is a sacred plant and it is being  over-harvested, or is the actual act of smudging?

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 04:37:50 am »
Quote from: mortarandpestle;194874
smudging?

 

Native Americans do not have a monopoly on the use of "smudging" although that word itself may belong to their practice and white sage is certainly theirs.

Here in the UK there is a long folk tradition of "whisks" which are bundles of herbs used for creating smoke - bramble is my favourite. It also used to be the practice in Wales on Calan Mai to drive cattle between two smoky fires to protect them and encourage fertility.

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 04:02:35 pm »
Quote from: mortarandpestle;194874
Thank you for bringing up this issue. I've never thought of it this way. Some traditions or rituals are sacred in cultures and/or religions that I do not  know much about.  I would  not like to disrespect another tradition by  using  it  in my ritual.  I also have a bundle of white sage that I have not burned.    
     What are your resources for this information?   I  would like to research this further.   I am wondering  if    someone says not to burn it is because  white sage is a sacred plant and it is being  over-harvested, or is the actual act of smudging?

 
As far as I'm aware, the problem isn't the burning of white sage, it's the fact that a) it is a sacred plant that isn't supposed to be sold commercially and b) the use of the word "smudging" to make it seem like a practice is Native American in origin in order to lend some "magical red person" "authenticity" to it.

Smoke cleansing is common across cultures. Smudging is a specific ceremony within a certain cultural context which involves more than lighting plants on fire, and most pagans or new-agers who say they're "smudging" aren't. They're smoke-cleansing.

(And ceremonies that are known as "smudging" are going to be different depending on which Native American culture they're from, too. So the problem isn't just "Oooh, look how mystical and spiritual I'm being by doing Native things!", it's also perpetuating the idea of Pan-Indian-ness, the idea that we're all a monolith and one Native culture is interchangeable for another. We're not. In fact there are many Native cultures where sage isn't supposed to be burned at all.)

Also, it's important to note there are two different white sages used by N. American indigenous people. One is Salvia apiana, which is being over-harvested and is only found in a limited range, and the other is Artemisia ludoviciana, which has a much bigger range and isn't, strictly speaking, a sage. It's commonly the first one that is sold in New Age stores, not the second one. The second one/its subspecies is super common; you can harvest it from the side of the road here in BC.

If you grow or harvest the white sage yourself, then that's a different thing from buying it from a New Age store. It hasn't been sold commercially, which is the big issue, nor has it been over-harvested (assuming you harvest it correctly). In fact you can where a First Nations Elder from Manitoba gives instructions on how to respectfully harvest and use white sage.
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mortarandpestle

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 04:52:04 pm »
Quote from: Morag;194893
As far as I'm aware, the problem isn't the burning of white sage, it's the fact that a) it is a sacred plant that isn't supposed to be sold commercially and b) the use of the word "smudging" to make it seem like a practice is Native American in origin in order to lend some "magical red person" "authenticity" to it.
 

Smoke cleansing is common across cultures. Smudging is a specific ceremony within a certain cultural context which involves more than lighting plants on fire, and most pagans or new-agers who say they're "smudging" aren't. They're smoke-cleansing.

(And ceremonies that are known as "smudging" are going to be different depending on which Native American culture they're from, too. So the problem isn't just "Oooh, look how mystical and spiritual I'm being by doing Native things!", it's also perpetuating the idea of Pan-Indian-ness, the idea that we're all a monolith and one Native culture is interchangeable for another. We're not. In fact there are many Native cultures where sage isn't supposed to be burned at all.)

Also, it's important to note there are two different white sages used by N. American indigenous people. One is Salvia apiana, which is being over-harvested and is only found in a limited range, and the other is Artemisia ludoviciana, which has a much bigger range and isn't, strictly speaking, a sage. It's commonly the first one that is sold in New Age stores, not the second one. The second one/its subspecies is super common; you can harvest it from the side of the road here in BC.

If you grow or harvest the white sage yourself, then that's a different thing from buying it from a New Age store. It hasn't been sold commercially, which is the big issue, nor has it been over-harvested (assuming you harvest it correctly). In fact you can where a First Nations Elder from Manitoba gives instructions on how to respectfully harvest and use white sage.

  Thank you for making this topic clearer to me.  I was having trouble researching this online.  There was not much I could find  besides "how to smudge" articles on blogs and websites.  Even on native American websites there is not a lot of information,  I've read  the ritual of smudging isn't  supposed to be written about or photographed ( depending on the tribe).

Scales

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 06:05:29 pm »
Quote from: Morag;194893
Also, it's important to note there are two different white sages used by N. American indigenous people. One is Salvia apiana, which is being over-harvested and is only found in a limited range, and the other is Artemisia ludoviciana, which has a much bigger range and isn't, strictly speaking, a sage. It's commonly the first one that is sold in New Age stores, not the second one. The second one/its subspecies is super common; you can harvest it from the side of the road here in BC.

 
Well that's something I wish I had read when my friend and I were harvesting wild herbs the other day. Now she's all the way in the interior again. Good to know.

Starlight

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2016, 03:32:57 am »
Quote from: Morag;194893
As far as I'm aware, the problem isn't the burning of white sage, it's the fact that a) it is a sacred plant that isn't supposed to be sold commercially and b) the use of the word "smudging" to make it seem like a practice is Native American in origin in order to lend some "magical red person" "authenticity" to it.


Thank you for that. Yes, the sage was purchased at a new age/crystal shop, so that part of the tradition was definitely not adhered to. :(

Quote from: Morag;194893
Smoke cleansing is common across cultures. Smudging is a specific ceremony within a certain cultural context which involves more than lighting plants on fire, and most pagans or new-agers who say they're "smudging" aren't. They're smoke-cleansing.


Whenever I've heard of someone burning sage to space clear, it's always the word "smudging" they use. Always. But I understand what you're saying - there's a world of difference between smoke-cleansing and smudging. Thank you for clarifying that.

Quote from: Morag;194893
So the problem isn't just "Oooh, look how mystical and spiritual I'm being by doing Native things!", it's also perpetuating the idea of Pan-Indian-ness, the idea that we're all a monolith and one Native culture is interchangeable for another. We're not. In fact there are many Native cultures where sage isn't supposed to be burned at all.)


That's what's so uncomfortable about learning about cultural appropriation. I realised I had not thought about what I had learned, where I had learned it from, or what I was using to carry out what I'd learned. I assumed, wrongly, that if I had received the information, then it was freely available and ok to use. Now I know that this is not so.

Quote from: Morag;194893
Also, it's important to note there are two different white sages used by N. American indigenous people. One is Salvia apiana, which is being over-harvested and is only found in a limited range, and the other is Artemisia ludoviciana, which has a much bigger range and isn't, strictly speaking, a sage. It's commonly the first one that is sold in New Age stores, not the second one. The second one/its subspecies is super common; you can harvest it from the side of the road here in BC.


I have leaves, dried leaves, some still attached to the twigs they grew on. Looking at the images, I'm saddened to say it's the salvia apiana I have...

Quote from: Morag;194893
If you grow or harvest the white sage yourself, then that's a different thing from buying it from a New Age store. It hasn't been sold commercially, which is the big issue, nor has it been over-harvested (assuming you harvest it correctly). In fact you can where a First Nations Elder from Manitoba gives instructions on how to respectfully harvest and use white sage.

 
Thank you for sharing the video.

My only question now is, what should I do with the salvia apiana leaves? Could you suggest a respectful way to treat them now, considering they are purchased?
What you seek is seeking you. - Rumi

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Starlight

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2016, 03:47:20 am »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;194884
Native Americans do not have a monopoly on the use of "smudging" although that word itself may belong to their practice and white sage is certainly theirs.


Um, as I understand it, smudging - both the practice and the word itself - is beyond any doubt a specific practice of particular Native American tribes, and only loosely bears any resemblance to smoke cleansing...
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Starlight

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2016, 03:49:28 am »
Quote from: mortarandpestle;194895
Thank you for making this topic clearer to me.  I was having trouble researching this online.  There was not much I could find  besides "how to smudge" articles on blogs and websites.  Even on native American websites there is not a lot of information,  I've read  the ritual of smudging isn't  supposed to be written about or photographed ( depending on the tribe).

Hi Mortarandpestle, I first came across this idea on the NAFPS website on this post, but there was no info on what to do with sage you already had which is why I asked here.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 03:57:56 am by Starlight »
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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2016, 06:31:49 am »
Quote from: Starlight;194902
My only question now is, what should I do with the salvia apiana leaves? Could you suggest a respectful way to treat them now, considering they are purchased?

 
Something that I've seen suggested by First Nations people when it comes to this sort of thing is you could offer tobacco to Mother Earth, the ancestors of N. American indigenous peoples, and the sage spirit, and give your thanks, apologize for purchasing it in ignorance, and pledge that now that you know better, you'll do better, and then burn it anyway. I mean, you've got it now, so....

It also has some medicinal uses and can be eaten, but of course you should use caution there.

Mind you, I currently have a white sage bundle that I've had for...well, ages, at this point, and after I learned about the issues I just kept using it because I figured, well hell, it's half-burnt, may as well use it up and then just not buy any more. I didn't do any ceremony of apology or anything, and I also haven't gotten any indicators (from the spirits, at least) that I'm in trouble over this. So that's where I'm coming from.
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Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2016, 06:50:43 am »
Quote from: Starlight;194903
Um, as I understand it, smudging - both the practice and the word itself - is beyond any doubt a specific practice of particular Native American tribes, and only loosely bears any resemblance to smoke cleansing...


Well I put it in inverted commas!  There are of course going to be differences. I wouldn't expect them to know the Welsh culture and practice that lies behind my own use of the technique.

Starlight

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2016, 08:45:14 am »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;194908
Well I put it in inverted commas!  There are of course going to be differences. I wouldn't expect them to know the Welsh culture and practice that lies behind my own use of the technique.

 
Hi Dynes Hysbys, I wasn't having a go at you, just sharing what I had understood the difference was between Native American smudging and (European/Scandinavian and elsewhere?) smoke-cleansing. It's only recently that I've learned about closed religions and appropriation, and it's this that prompted me to return to and study my own heritage - the old literature, poems, speaking the language and so on. I just want to be sure that my actions are respectful, both of my own tradition and the traditions of others. Hence this thread. :)
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Starlight

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Re: Advice needed: white sage leaves
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2016, 08:59:27 am »
Quote from: Morag;194907
Something that I've seen suggested by First Nations people when it comes to this sort of thing is you could offer tobacco to Mother Earth, the ancestors of N. American indigenous peoples, and the sage spirit, and give your thanks, apologize for purchasing it in ignorance, and pledge that now that you know better, you'll do better, and then burn it anyway. I mean, you've got it now, so....


That's a lovely idea to offer thanks. Thank you for that suggestion.

Quote from: Morag;194907
It also has some medicinal uses and can be eaten, but of course you should use caution there.


I'm not sure if after all this time my own supply could be safely consumed.... one other suggestion I did see for using dried herbs was to sew some herb pillows or pouches or sachets and use them in wardrobes (usu lavender) or under pillows (mugwort - good for dreams, I've heard). Not sure how sage could be used in this way, but they have left a wonderful scent in the box I hold my oracle and tarot decks in. I like to think the sage is also offering an element of the sacred there, too.

Quote from: Morag;194907
Mind you, I currently have a white sage bundle that I've had for...well, ages, at this point, and after I learned about the issues I just kept using it because I figured, well hell, it's half-burnt, may as well use it up and then just not buy any more. I didn't do any ceremony of apology or anything, and I also haven't gotten any indicators (from the spirits, at least) that I'm in trouble over this. So that's where I'm coming from.

 
Sure, I understand. I won't be buying any more white sage either. And I certainly haven't gotten any indicators that I'm in any sort of trouble, but once I learned the information, I couldn't "un-learn" it, and wondered what the next best thing to do was. You've been very helpful with suggestions and information - so a big thank you! :)
What you seek is seeking you. - Rumi

The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are. - CG Jung

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