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Author Topic: What's the beef with SRW??  (Read 8283 times)

Chrissie0683

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What's the beef with SRW??
« on: August 01, 2016, 01:53:44 pm »
Apologies if this is in the wrong section but I'm intrigued to know peoples thoughts.

A long long time ago, my ex bought me "to ride a silver broomstick" by (as many of you know) Silver Ravenwolf.

I quite enjoyed it...It was my first book on the subject and led me to reading many more.

One thing I've noticed though (on other fora and facebook etc)is that there seems to be a general disdain for Silver Ravenwolf and I'm interested to know what your thoughts are?

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2016, 03:33:44 pm »
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194610
Apologies if this is in the wrong section but I'm intrigued to know peoples thoughts.

A long long time ago, my ex bought me "to ride a silver broomstick" by (as many of you know) Silver Ravenwolf.

I quite enjoyed it...It was my first book on the subject and led me to reading many more.

One thing I've noticed though (on other fora and facebook etc)is that there seems to be a general disdain for Silver Ravenwolf and I'm interested to know what your thoughts are?

 
It didn't get very far into the book but Elf did a thorough critique of the preface here: http://witchbook-the-failing.dreamwidth.org/

This editorial is hosted on TC: http://ecauldron.net/opedtarnishedsilver.php
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Chrissie0683

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2016, 04:20:12 pm »
Quote from: Jack;194614
It didn't get very far into the book but Elf did a thorough critique of the preface here: http://witchbook-the-failing.dreamwidth.org/

This editorial is hosted on TC: http://ecauldron.net/opedtarnishedsilver.php


Thanks for that I'll have a read tomorrow (tired eyes now).

I find it interesting how different people view her. I get how she could be "damaging" to new followers, I've learnt over the years different views and the correct facts to some of the things she writes about.
I wonder how many stayed and learnt as I did after reading her books and how many either stopped bothering or carried on believing everything she wrote was gospel

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2016, 04:56:03 pm »
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194619
Thanks for that I'll have a read tomorrow (tired eyes now).

I find it interesting how different people view her. I get how she could be "damaging" to new followers, I've learnt over the years different views and the correct facts to some of the things she writes about.
I wonder how many stayed and learnt as I did after reading her books and how many either stopped bothering or carried on believing everything she wrote was gospel

 
I came into paganism in the 90s, so like a lot of people of that generation I read Silver Ravenwolf. I actually owned all three of the "To __ a ___" series. (Which... looks dirty, typed like that.) I also read DJ Conway, who I always felt was worse than SRW, and other authors who probably only ever put out one 101 style book before fading into obscurity.  Alongside that stuff I read Gardner and Buckland and the Farrars.  

I was a teenager, so I read everything I could get my hands on and believed most (if not all) of it to be true. I worked with several other teenage girls at the time, and they too figured that if it was in a book it must be legit.

It was when internet became a little larger that I discovered that the history in my books was actually pretty shit. I was also getting older, so I was learning more critical thinking skills.

My teenage coven fell apart before graduation. Most of the girls drifted away from witchcraft entirely - of the seven of us, only three of us kept up the practice. But all of us three have grown in our beliefs and practices and certainly don't believe any of the 'burning times' crap common to SRW and other authors of that time period. It shouldn't really be shocking that the 90s witches - those of us who started with crap books and a deep desire to live 'The Craft' - grew up.

Chrissie0683

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 05:42:16 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;194620


I was a teenager, so I read everything I could get my hands on and believed most (if not all) of it to be true. I worked with several other teenage girls at the time, and they too figured that if it was in a book it must be legit.

It was when internet became a little larger that I discovered that the history in my books was actually pretty shit. I was also getting older, so I was learning more critical thinking skills.



I was thinking about it again this morning (whilst I was sweeping the floors) and you're right...I didn't have constant access to the internet until about 2001/2002 and that was only because of work. When I was back home (with the ex) we only had dial up and he was always on it.
I think the internet probably helped a lot..as with all new things you spend hours on it looking at all sorts. I wonder if people now would be so quick to believe what's in front of them or whether they would just "google it"?

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2016, 07:55:41 am »
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194610
One thing I've noticed though (on other fora and facebook etc)is that there seems to be a general disdain for Silver Ravenwolf and I'm interested to know what your thoughts are?

 
The two links Jack shared give a good summary, but for me the biggest issues with her work are about removing difficult or challenging material to make it easier or more acceptable.

You can see this in her discussion of alcohol, time after time, it's "you don't need that" when bread and wine are a core ritual meal for many traditions. It's not that there aren't alternatives for people who can't drink wine or don't want to - there are and should be! But to push avoiding all alcohol, for everyone, is dismissing a broad activity that brings many people pleasure (while also being complicated for others) and is actively counter to the permissiveness of the Rede about activities that we can choose that don't hurt others.

My witchcraft is about self-awareness, and experience, and thinking about my choices, not discarding a very traditional ritual food (for a variety of reasons including how it holds magical energy) automatically.

You can see this in her discussion (such as it is, though it's been a while since I read the books) about the Great Rite, treating it as a very high level brief theoretical thing, rather than something that should be about energetic connection and emotion and risking a part of one's heart to experience something greater.

My witchcraft is not tidy and neat and little Valentine's Day hearts of approved relationship emotion. It's about daring and risking and connecting, and sometimes getting hurt.

(And personally, my witchcraft is also about having been single for the last ten years, and while I honour and value the consort/married/whatever one calls that relationship of the deities who are primary in my personal work, it is also very reassuring and important to me to me that in a polytheistic world, there are deities out there who are also single and not in romantic relationships or social pairings, who do not have kids, who do other things, as well as those who do.)

You can see this in her discussion of how to do things, which is very prescriptive, to a degree and effect that I have not seen with any other author.

Back in the late 90s and very early 2000s, when her books were most widely discussed, there was this pattern that kept repeating.  The most specific example I can remember went like this:

Someone asked how to make holy water, and was visibly distressed at the fact that she couldn't do it how Ravenwolf said you should, because she worked the night shift, and wasn't free at midnight, when Ravenwolf said you should do this.

Other people in the discussion pointed out that that was only one method, and suggested alternatives, depending on her priorities. (Want the moon energy? Put out a jar overnight, finish blessing it when you get off work. Want to infuse the water with another energy? Do that! Really want the full moon? Ok, most people think you have a three day window, so if you wait a couple of months, you can probably get a night off to line up with that window.)

She was having none of it. At all. She had to do it how Mama Silver said. Nothing anyone else said had any meaning at all.

If that had been one person, I would have written it off as 'some people are very literal', but it wasn't just one person: that's just the most specific example that stayed with me. That kind of conversation, someone convinced that they had to do what Mama Silver said or everything would be wrong wrong wrongity wrong forever kept happening. Over and over. For years.

And it got in the way of their witchcraft. It got in the way of their life. It got in the way of them becoming competent, self-aware, capable people.

My witchcraft isn't having any of that. My witchcraft is about choices, and learning, and understanding why we do a thing, and being willing to try other things if the first thing doesn't work. My witchcraft is adaptable, because people are different, and lives change. My witchcraft is about witchcraft being a tool to help my life be better, not limit it and make it full of anxiety and distress.

If Ravenwolf were not an author, I'd be very "okay, you and yours can do what works for you." about. But when someone's an author, and their work starts affecting many more people, and when - as someone who was actually teaching Seeker and Dedicant classes toward the tail end of that time period, so I had to deliberately counter-teach a bunch of concepts heavy Ravenwolf readers started with? That's more of a problem for the community at large. And people got - not unreasonably - grumpy about that.

Which, mind, produced some really excellent rants over the years, so at least there's that.
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Soletaken

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2016, 08:25:00 am »
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194610
Apologies if this is in the wrong section but I'm intrigued to know peoples thoughts.

A long long time ago, my ex bought me "to ride a silver broomstick" by (as many of you know) Silver Ravenwolf.

I quite enjoyed it...It was my first book on the subject and led me to reading many more.

One thing I've noticed though (on other fora and facebook etc)is that there seems to be a general disdain for Silver Ravenwolf and I'm interested to know what your thoughts are?

 
Many years ago, when I was younger and more foolish, Ravenwolf was suggested to me as the be all, end all source for all things witchy. When I decided to actually start reading up on modern witchcraft and incorporate it into my life, she was the only author I'd ever heard of. Yeah, I bought her books. Read em. Believed some of it, thought other bits sounded idiotic but figured it was only because I lacked her obvious wisdom and discernment.

Long story short, I got my head filled with fluff and nonsense, and had to spend alot of time deprogramming myself from her work to start over fresh. I keep her books, as a constant reminder to myself that just because it's in a book doesn't make it accurate or worthwhile.

Her historical accuracy is questionable to be polite, her tone is incredibly condescending, and as Jennett mentioned, there really isn't any leeway in ravenwolf's methods. In many ways, she's not that different  (imo) from the fundamental Baptists I grew up with.

Oh, and then there's that whole thing about periods only hurt because our patriarchal, male-dominated society has made women feel ashamed of their natural biology. Screw you silver, periods hurt because they hurt!

Tantrum over.

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 02:22:10 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;194637
If that had been one person, I would have written it off as 'some people are very literal', but it wasn't just one person: that's just the most specific example that stayed with me. That kind of conversation, someone convinced that they had to do what Mama Silver said or everything would be wrong wrong wrongity wrong forever kept happening. Over and over. For years.

And it got in the way of their witchcraft. It got in the way of their life. It got in the way of them becoming competent, self-aware, capable people.

 
Yeah, this. (And all of the rest of Jenett's post.)

I was one of Mama Silver's Baby Bunnies and it was severely damaging to me, in the way Jenett outlined above and in others. To be honest it probably set back my witchcraft several years.

The problem for me was I was damaged, and SRW set herself up as the person to fix that damage if I only followed her rules and believed whatever she told me. There was an offer of salvation in her work, and a definite sense that if I didn't follow her rules, I would be a failure of a witch.

Maybe a less-damaged teenager would be more likely to read her stuff and go "Yeah, sure, whatever lady." I don't know. I know people have gotten angry at me before for suggesting that SRW's work can be damaging to teens, simply because it's such a volatile time in your life and the way she writes is appealing to teens in troubled waters. All I know is that for the kind of teen I was, her stuff was downright dangerous.

So yeah, I'm super bitter about the effect SRW had in my own life. Even if I can now acknowledge that even a stopped clock might be right twice a day. (Or only once if it's on military time.)
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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 02:26:47 pm »
Quote from: Soletaken;194638
Oh, and then there's that whole thing about periods only hurt because our patriarchal, male-dominated society has made women feel ashamed of their natural biology. Screw you silver, periods hurt because they hurt!

 
Is that where I read that crap? Holy hell, that nugget of "wisdom" screwed me over for a decade at least.

I'd totally forgotten it was in SRW's work until you mentioned it, but now that you have...yeah.
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Chrissie0683

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 02:57:59 pm »
Quote from: Morag;194652
Yeah, this. (And all of the rest of Jenett's post.)



The problem for me was I was damaged, and SRW set herself up as the person to fix that damage if I only followed her rules and believed whatever she told me. There was an offer of salvation in her work, and a definite sense that if I didn't follow her rules, I would be a failure of a witch.



I've read a few internet articles saying exactly this kind of thing.
I can see how it could work out that way to be honest. Although it sounds to us like she's being condescending but to an impressionable teenager it tells them what they want to hear "Follow my rules and you'll have everything you want"..Even insinuating that lying is a good idea

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 06:59:30 pm »
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194656
to an impressionable teenager it tells them what they want to hear "Follow my rules and you'll have everything you want".


Almost, but not quite, completely OT: This immediately reminded me of the movie Labyrinth, where the above is the antagonist's line. Or fairly close to. And it's depicted as a trap, with problems similar to what Jenett described above.
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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 08:08:11 pm »
Quote from: Morag;194652
The problem for me was I was damaged, and SRW set herself up as the person to fix that damage if I only followed her rules and believed whatever she told me. There was an offer of salvation in her work, and a definite sense that if I didn't follow her rules, I would be a failure of a witch.


Y'know, if that happened in a one-on-one, meatlife relationship, we'd call it 'abuser tactics'.

Quote from: Morag;194652
Maybe a less-damaged teenager would be more likely to read her stuff and go "Yeah, sure, whatever lady." I don't know. I know people have gotten angry at me before for suggesting that SRW's work can be damaging to teens, simply because it's such a volatile time in your life and the way she writes is appealing to teens in troubled waters. All I know is that for the kind of teen I was, her stuff was downright dangerous.

So yeah, I'm super bitter about the effect SRW had in my own life. Even if I can now acknowledge that even a stopped clock might be right twice a day. (Or only once if it's on military time.)

 
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194656
I've read a few internet articles saying exactly this kind of thing.
I can see how it could work out that way to be honest. Although it sounds to us like she's being condescending but to an impressionable teenager it tells them what they want to hear "Follow my rules and you'll have everything you want"..Even insinuating that lying is a good idea

 
I've long noticed that it targets, specifically, those teens who cannot tell that her warmly patronizing tone is, well, patronizing. They have so little experience of not being condescended to that they take for granted that that's how people talk, and perceive only the comforting warmth.

Since condescension is such a culturally-common way to interact with young folks (and having seen many, many young adults adopt a condescending tone without realizing it was condescending, for any communication in which they wished to convey friendly warmth), I didn't really think much of it, other than finding it disrespectful to her audience. But....

Basically, her target audience is vulnerable young people, who may well have already been emotionally/verbally abused, and she grooms them to be dependent on her alone.

I'm not saying she does this with cold-blooded, fully-conscious intent. But most abusers aren't cold-blooded and calculating, plotting out their abuses for shits and giggles; they are acting, as all of us do, to meet their own perceived needs, and are often only dimly if at all aware that their methods of doing so are abusive.

Now that I've spotted it, a whole lot of things are fitting together. The pattern was always there, it's just subtle and not easy to see unless you're really looking. Eww.

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 08:57:29 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;194665
Y'know, if that happened in a one-on-one, meatlife relationship, we'd call it 'abuser tactics'.
 
I've long noticed that it targets, specifically, those teens who cannot tell that her warmly patronizing tone is, well, patronizing. They have so little experience of not being condescended to that they take for granted that that's how people talk, and perceive only the comforting warmth.

Since condescension is such a culturally-common way to interact with young folks (and having seen many, many young adults adopt a condescending tone without realizing it was condescending, for any communication in which they wished to convey friendly warmth), I didn't really think much of it, other than finding it disrespectful to her audience. But....

Basically, her target audience is vulnerable young people, who may well have already been emotionally/verbally abused, and she grooms them to be dependent on her alone.

I'm not saying she does this with cold-blooded, fully-conscious intent. But most abusers aren't cold-blooded and calculating, plotting out their abuses for shits and giggles; they are acting, as all of us do, to meet their own perceived needs, and are often only dimly if at all aware that their methods of doing so are abusive.

Now that I've spotted it, a whole lot of things are fitting together. The pattern was always there, it's just subtle and not easy to see unless you're really looking. Eww.

Sunflower

 
Wow, that's a pretty critical expose. Since I have never been Wiccan, I have no idea who Silvia Ravenwolf is, aside from a few references here and there. What kind of thing does she say/write?

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 10:10:20 pm »
Quote from: Chrissie0683;194610

Something I don't think I've seen mentioned yet are her mammy dolls.

Story (by her)

Purchase link (with images)

(for the unfamiliar: mammy archetype on wikipedia and some images of other mammy dolls. There are probably better discussions on this but I wouldn't know where to look :/)

Aside from that, I have a couple links that aren't yet linked
http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/continuing-anger-over-silver-ravenwolf/
https://web.archive.org/web/20120318023243/http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/vanthal/608/id57.htm
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 10:11:00 pm by Scales »

mandrina

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Re: What's the beef??
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2016, 12:43:24 am »
Quote from: Scales;194669
Something I don't think I've seen mentioned yet are her mammy dolls.

Story (by her)

Purchase link (with images)

(for the unfamiliar: mammy archetype on wikipedia and some images of other mammy dolls. There are probably better discussions on this but I wouldn't know where to look :/)

Aside from that, I have a couple links that aren't yet linked
http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/continuing-anger-over-silver-ravenwolf/
https://web.archive.org/web/20120318023243/http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/vanthal/608/id57.htm


I don't know where be boodle comes from, but this smacks of appropriation.  I'd have to do more research to be sure, but while it's an interesting story, selling the mammy dolls feels very wrong to me.  just my gut.  Like me trying to sell Navaho things.
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