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Author Topic: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.  (Read 7856 times)

Caleb Oak

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Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« on: July 17, 2016, 01:08:54 pm »
I have been having the same question in my mind for several years now and I was curious to your views on it:
What is the dark side or rather the polar opposite of Wicca when it comes to tools used in rituals, beliefs, types of energy used etc? :)

Simply put:
If Wiccans are Jedi/Order members who are the Sith/Death Eaters in our world? :ange:
Or are there none? ;)

(Hope this is in the right place :3 )
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 01:09:44 pm by Thrak »

Tom

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2016, 02:31:20 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194024
I have been having the same question in my mind for several years now and I was curious to your views on it:
What is the dark side or rather the polar opposite of Wicca when it comes to tools used in rituals, beliefs, types of energy used etc? :)

Simply put:
If Wiccans are Jedi/Order members who are the Sith/Death Eaters in our world? :ange:
Or are there none? ;)

(Hope this is in the right place :3 )

 
Due to how diverse Wicca can be, this is probably an unanswerable question. Also it posits that any religion can be placed in a black/white dichotomy.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2016, 02:49:18 pm »
Quote from: Tom;194039
Due to how diverse Wicca can be, this is probably an unanswerable question. Also it posits that any religion can be placed in a black/white dichotomy.

 
Maybe so, but the basic idea in Wicca is the same is it not?

Satanism is more or less the Dark side or polar opposite of Christianity for example.

Its not a black/white dichotomy, but their ideals and practices are very much opposite to each other, even hostile in most cases.

That is what i mean.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2016, 02:49:53 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194024
If Wiccans are Jedi/Order members who are the Sith/Death Eaters in our world? :ange:
Or are there none?

Since Wiccans are not Jedis or the House of Gryffindor, there are no such polar opposites, at least not in Consensus Reality.

In subjective realities there are many possible opposites.

Within the subjective reality of conservative Evangelicals, the Wiccans are the Sith Lords/Death Eaters, and the conservative Evangelicals themselves are the Jedis/Gryffindorians.

Within the subjective reality of the myth of the burning times, Wiccans are the Jedis/Gryffindorians, while the secular courts of justice and Established Churches of various regions of Europe* are the Sith Lords/Death Eaters. I would add, though, that educated Wiccans of today - especially in UK and mainland Europe - are aware of, that the myth of the burning times is an aethiological myth used symbolically for group coherence.

* That would mean Church of England in England and Wales; the presbyterian church in Scotland (from 1689 Church of Scotland); Church of Ireland in Ireland; the Roman Catholic Church in Spain, Portugal, France, the Papal States,  Poland, Austria, Bavaria, Hohenzollern, Baden-Baden, Augsburg, Konstanz, Cologne, Mainz and (after 1685) the Rhine-Palatinate ; A number of Lutheran churches in Sweden, Denmark, Saxony, the free city of Lübeck, Anhalt (before the 1640s), Pomerania, Württemberg, Baden-Durlach, Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Lippe (before 1605), Brunswick, Oldenburg, the free city of Bremen and the free city of Verden, respectively; and a number of Reformed churches in the Netherlands, Hesse, Nassau, Lippe (after 1605), Anhalt (after the 1640s), the Rhine-Palatinate (1559-1685), parts of Westphalia and some Swiss (especially Basel and Geneva). The part of the map, now occupied by Germany, was then a dizzying number of political entities - each with their own established church: Either Roman Catholic, Lutheran or Reformed. Don't get me started about Osnabrück.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 02:54:56 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2016, 02:52:04 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;194041
Since Wiccans are not Jedis or the House of Gryffindor, there are no such polar opposites, at least not in Consensus Reality.

In subjective realities there are many possible opposites.

Within the subjective reality of conservative Evangelicals, the Wiccans are the Sith Lords/Death Eaters, and the conservative Evangelicals themselves are the Jedis/Gryffindorians.

Within the subjective reality of the myth of the burning times, Wiccans are the Jedis/Gryffindorians, while the secular courts of justice and Established Churches of various regions of Europe* are the Sith Lords/Death Eaters. I would add, though, that educated Wiccans of today - especially in UK and mainland Europe - are aware of, that the myth of the burning times is an aethiological myth used symbolically for group coherence.

* That would mean Church of England in England and Wales; the presbyterian church in Scotland (from 1689 Church of Scotland); Church of Ireland in Ireland; the Roman Catholic Church in Spain, Portugal, France, the Papal States,  Poland, Austria, Bavaria, Hohenzollern, Baden-Baden, Augsburg, Konstanz, Cologne, Mainz and (after 1685) the Rhine-Palatinate ; A number of Lutheran churches in Sweden, Denmark, Saxony, the free city of Lübeck, Anhalt, Pomerania, Württemberg, Baden-Durlach, Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Lippe (before 1605), Brunswick, Oldenburg, the free city of Bremen and the free city of Verden, respectively; and a number of Reformed churches in the Netherlands, Hesse, Lippe (after 1605), the Rhine-Palatinate (1559-1685), parts of Westphalia and some Swiss (especially Basel and Geneva). The part of the map, now occupied by Germany, was then a dizzying number of political entities - each with their own established church: Either Roman Catholic, Lutheran or Reformed.

So basicly Heinrich Kramer and his goons?
Simply put.

Not bad, good points.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2016, 02:52:58 pm by Thrak »

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2016, 03:03:47 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194042
So basicly Heinrich Kramer and his goons?


No, not actually. The Roman Catholic Church condemned Kramer's Malleus Maleficarum in 1490.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 03:11:04 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;194043
No, not actually. The Roman Catholic Church condemned Kramer's Malleus Maleficarum in 1490.

 
Sure, but that did not stop him from killing thousands of innocent ppl with a group of followers, and most ppl did not know the Roman Catholic Church condemned it.

Kramers used the Bull Summis desiderantes affectibus to make it seem the Pope supported his ideals by placing it in the front and the back of his book.

But Innocent VIII died in 1492, while Kramer published his book in 1486.

About 64.000 innocent ppl died......

Tom

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2016, 03:31:57 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194040
Maybe so, but the basic idea in Wicca is the same is it not?

Satanism is more or less the Dark side or polar opposite of Christianity for example.

Its not a black/white dichotomy, but their ideals and practices are very much opposite to each other, even hostile in most cases.

That is what i mean.

 
Well, I do know that there are folkish Heathens who dislike Wiccans a great deal, mocking those who do not worship the way they do as "Wiccatru" which uses the word Wicca in a way that is insulting and they also like to spout beliefs about who can participate in their religion that resembles a good deal like the pure blood beliefs of Death Eaters, if you would like to posit the Wiccans as Order Members.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2016, 03:34:39 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194044
Sure, but that did not stop him from killing thousands of innocent ppl with a group of followers, and most ppl did not know the Roman Catholic Church condemned it.

Kramers used the Bull Summis desiderantes affectibus to make it seem the Pope supported his ideals by placing it in the front and the back of his book.

But Innocent VIII died in 1492, while Kramer published his book in 1486.

About 64.000 innocent ppl died......


Don't exaggerate the importance of Kramer personally.

  • The witch hunts began already in the 1380s, long before the time of Kramer, though the major part of them did occur after 1500.
  • The reformation began to happen in the 1510's: The Inquisition did not have any authority in Lutheran, Anglican and Presbyterian countries, and a book written by a Roman Catholic wouldn't hold any theological authority among Lutherans, Anglicans or Presbyterians.
  • Most courts were secular anyhow.


The number of executed persons is not definitely known. One expert, Bengt Ankarloo, suggest an estimation of 30.000-60.000 persons between the 1380s and the 1780s in the entire Europe and its, then, colonies.

And, as you say, the victims were innocent. They didn't practice Wicca, since the existence of Wicca isn't attested before 1946-47 and isn't possible before 1921 (when Margaret Murray published The Witch-cult in Western Europe).

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2016, 03:35:43 pm »
Quote from: Tom;194046
Well, I do know that there are folkish Heathens who dislike Wiccans a great deal, mocking those who do not worship the way they do as "Wiccatru" which uses the word Wicca in a way that is insulting and they also like to spout beliefs about who can participate in their religion that resembles a good deal like the pure blood beliefs of Death Eaters, if you would like to posit the Wiccans as Order Members.

 
Ok, now that's an interesting turn, very unexpected.
Thanks. ;)

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2016, 03:37:06 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;194047
Don't exaggerate the importance of Kramer personally.

  • The witch hunts began already in the 1380s, long before the time of Kramer, though the major part of them did occur after 1500.
  • The reformation began to happen in the 1510's: The Inquisition did not have any authority in Lutheran, Anglican and Presbyterian countries, and a book written by a Roman Catholic wouldn't hold any theological authority among Lutherans, Anglicans or Presbyterians.
  • Most courts were secular anyhow.


The number of executed persons is not definitely known. One expert, Bengt Ankarloo, suggest an estimation of 30.000-60.000 persons between the 1380s and the 1780s in the entire Europe and its, then, colonies.

And, as you say, the victims were innocent. They didn't practice Wicca, since the existence of Wicca isn't attested before 1946-47 and isn't possible before 1921 (when Margaret Murray published The Witch-cult in Western Europe).

 
I read in my books the real craze started with Kramer, but you make more sense.
Thanks, i love learning things like this. :D:

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2016, 03:53:11 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194050
I read in my books the real craze started with Kramer


But it did! From 1380 to the time of Kramer only a few hundred (I have seen the number c. 700 somewhere) were executed for witchcraft. That is ghastly enough, but it only constitute a small segment of the sum total of 30.000-60.000.

The key word here is started.

Since the Pope changed his mind about Kramer, the bishop of Innsbruck expelled him from Innsbruck and the university of Cologne rejected the Malleus, we should be cautious not to exaggerate Kramer's influence in his own surroundings.

What is true, however, is that the major part of the witch-hunts happened in the two centuries after Kramer's activity.

It is important to understand each of the individual witch-paranoias within its own particular cultural, social, juridical and religious setting.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2016, 03:58:25 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;194051
But it did! From 1380 to the time of Kramer only a few hundred (I have seen the number c. 700 somewhere) were executed for witchcraft. That is ghastly enough, but it only constitute a small segment of the sum total of 30.000-60.000.

The key word here is started.

Since the Pope changed his mind about Kramer, the bishop of Innsbruck expelled him from Innsbruck and the university of Cologne rejected the Malleus, we should be cautious not to exaggerate Kramer's influence in his own surroundings.

What is true, however, is that the major part of the witch-hunts happened in the two centuries after Kramer's activity.

It is important to understand each of the individual witch-paranoias within its own particular cultural, social, juridical and religious setting.

Yes indeed, though i did not know  bishop of Innsbruck expelled him from Innsbruck.

 And he did gett Pope Innocent VIII to sign the Summis desiderantes affectibus if i am not mistaken, and if sao i wonder how he convinced him......

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2016, 04:02:14 pm »
Quote from: Thrak;194024
I have been having the same question in my mind for several years now and I was curious to your views on it:
What is the dark side or rather the polar opposite of Wicca when it comes to tools used in rituals, beliefs, types of energy used etc? :)

Simply put:
If Wiccans are Jedi/Order members who are the Sith/Death Eaters in our world? :ange:
Or are there none? ;)

(Hope this is in the right place :3 )


I think that any left-hand path would, in essence, oppose any right-hand path. So Satanism (I'm talking about real Satanism here, not the Satanism imagined by Christians) is in opposition to Christianity, but also many forms of Wicca, Thelema, etc.

Caleb Oak

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Re: Dark side or polar opposite of Wicca.
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2016, 04:03:21 pm »
Quote from: Queen of Swords;194053
I think that any left-hand path would, in essence, oppose any right-hand path. So Satanism (I'm talking about real Satanism here, not the Satanism imagined by Christians) is in opposition to Christianity, but also many forms of Wicca, Thelema, etc.

 
Is all dark magic Satanism than? :confused:

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