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Author Topic: Why Do You Believe?  (Read 3477 times)

Nymree

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Why Do You Believe?
« on: July 17, 2016, 10:52:41 am »
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc. This may not apply to everyone, depending on personal belief, but if you're comfortable with sharing I was curious about other people's experiences of these things that gave them the conviction to believe. Many people would argue that there isn't enough evidence for belief in divinities or that gut instinct and intuition isn't enough to justify a belief. I have no opinion on this at the moment, but wanted to see what others in the community thought of it.

Anything you can contribute at all, no matter how small it may seem to you, will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to any and all replies made!

Sarah

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2016, 11:18:27 am »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc.

 
I still don't know if i believe or not sometimes, but acting as if i do make my life work so much better
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2016, 12:33:05 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc. This may not apply to everyone, depending on personal belief, but if you're comfortable with sharing I was curious about other people's experiences of these things that gave them the conviction to believe.


'Belief' is not necessarily the best word to describe everything I do, at least not without qualifying remarks.

Most people, including Atheists, and, to a lesser extent, including Solipsists, but not including Pyrrhonists, lead their life in a way, which tacitly assent to many beliefs. The most basic one is the unproven belief that reality exists. It is a very useful belief, since it makes everyday life much more easier, but it is not knowledge. Immanuel Kant clearly saw this human condition, but then he cheated and argued for inherited Conceptualism. Each Solipsist is only sure of that (s)he exist hirself - a notion criticized by (some) Buddhists. Buddhists, on the other hand, believe in the existence of Nirvana, and Northern Asian Buddhists believe in the existence of Buddha Nature, though the latter has met some internal criticism within Zen Buddhism since the 1980s.

But let us begin this discussion within the assumption that Reality - in some sense, however vague - actually exist. Within the parameters of such a discussion, an Atheist is not able to deny the existence of some Pagan deities!

The Sun obviously exist. It is a globe of hydrogen and helium with a circumference of 4.379×10 6 km at a mean distance of 1.496×10 8 km from Earth.

The Earth obviously exist. It is a globe of mainly iron, oxygen, silicon, magnesium, calcium and aluminium with a circumference of 40,075.017 km.

The Moon obviously exist. It is a globe of a similar composition to Earth with a circumference of 10 921 km.

Cosmos obviously exist. The exact size is still to be determined, but, until there is reason to re-evaluate data, its age is probably 13.8 billion years. I remember the last time the age of Cosmos was re-evaluated: In secondary school I was taught, that Cosmos probably is 18-19 billion years old. My grandparents were taught that Cosmos always has existed.

Thus, the existence of some Pagan deities are empirically demonstrable. Empiricism is a method which rely on the (unproven) belief that Reality exist and the (unproven) belief that human sensory data are reliable.

Some (Pythagorean) deities - the Numbers - exist out of logical necessity.

Quote
If 1 = 1, then 1 + 1 = 2


Isn't the above proposition an eternal truth? The mathematicians in this community may tell me if I am wrong. I am a historian dammit, not a matematician!

Deities assumed to exist between the material level and the very abstract level of numbers raise considerably more problems. They obviously exist as culturally formed and limited conceptions within minds, but many non-Pagan persons (and some Pagans) would argue against their existence outside the minds of the conceptualizing subjects. Still, some persons have subjective experiences when in Altered States of Consciousness, that would lend credence to the existence of intermediate deities, although none of these experiences would convince anyone else than the subjects having the experiences.

But is 'belief' actually a useful category to discuss? Pre-Christian Pagans performed Paganism without necessarily sharing any particular beliefs. Cicero, for instance, was quite sceptic about a lot of religious notions, but he practiced Paganism anyhow.

Faemon

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2016, 01:23:05 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;194023

Most people, including Atheists, and, to a lesser extent, including Solipsists, but not including Pyrrhonists, lead their life in a way, which tacitly assent to many beliefs. The most basic one is the unproven belief that reality exists.

That's where I start from, too. Call it philosophy, reality, or experience: I call it belief. Raw experience isn't much without at least some personal interpretation, and I consider that interpretive process belief.

Semantics aside...

Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc.  


One Christmas, I received a present in opaque wrapping paper that was obviously a book...but I couldn't have known the cover art. But I knew what it was before I removed the wrapping paper. That's all. Could it be some abnormal activity in the hippocampus that gave me such strong deja vu that I thought I could know a thing before it happens? Probably. Could it be psychometry? Well, if it was I never could repeat that. Can't cheat at poker with my psychic powers. If it's that useless and inconsistent, it's probably not a skill worth honing. Yet, I can't shake my belief because of how I interpreted that particular experience.
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japaley

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 02:32:59 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc.

Greetings All

Tough question, not sure if that question can ever truly be answer or should we even try to.

But from my perspective it comes down to live experiences. I will not go into too much explanation of the details in my next statement, that’s a story for another time. In total, over the course of my life I should have died 4 times. but each time I was pull back from the edge not by my own will, but that of something else and for that reason I believe that there are things that I may not understand, may not need to understand.

But there is clear something is out there, call it what you will, a god, a being, a force.  It is out there and it would be for not to believe that something doesn't exist. I have always felt that there has been a guiding force in my life for along as I could remember, I kind of but that on my mother and my upbringing at first but after the experiences I have lived for myself, I believe it could be nothing else.

I don't believe that it makes me stronger or better than anyone else, it is just there. it is up to me what I do with it, how I live with it, I still have everyday problems with work, love, relationships, myself the same as anyone else. The only thing that I can do is close my eyes, take a breath and find that force and take the next step and trust that I won't fall down and that's why I believe, that's where I put my believe.

If that makes any kind of sense.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 02:42:59 pm by japaley »

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 01:55:47 am »
Quote from: Jake_;194022
I still don't know if i believe or not sometimes, but acting as if i do make my life work so much better

 
My answer is a variant on this. Either gods and spirits exist or I have had very specific, persistent manifestations of schizophrenia and narcolepsy my entire life, and believing the latter doesn't improve my life at all, but the former does so I go with that.
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Lumpino

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 01:09:08 am »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc. This may not apply to everyone, depending on personal belief, but if you're comfortable with sharing I was curious about other people's experiences of these things that gave them the conviction to believe. Many people would argue that there isn't enough evidence for belief in divinities or that gut instinct and intuition isn't enough to justify a belief. I have no opinion on this at the moment, but wanted to see what others in the community thought of it.

Anything you can contribute at all, no matter how small it may seem to you, will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to any and all replies made!


I do Believe because "supernatural" beings is possible to induce in order to be visibly manifested. A longer meditation abou theire names is sufficient.
It was common practice, for example, ancient mysteries. See Theurgia by Iamblichus and similar old pagan texts.

YungMeatRabbit

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2016, 08:14:08 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc. This may not apply to everyone, depending on personal belief, but if you're comfortable with sharing I was curious about other people's experiences of these things that gave them the conviction to believe. Many people would argue that there isn't enough evidence for belief in divinities or that gut instinct and intuition isn't enough to justify a belief. I have no opinion on this at the moment, but wanted to see what others in the community thought of it.

Anything you can contribute at all, no matter how small it may seem to you, will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to any and all replies made!

Honestly, I consider myself an agnostic.  I've seen enough of both sides of the god debate to realize that no deities can ever be dis/proven and that when you really get down to it, people really just believe what they want to at the end of the day.  I also realized that if deities do exist, then the people that they would reveal themselves to would be their worshippers.  For example, if Thoth exists, which group of humans would he interact with: a bunch of Christians who don't believe in him, a bunch of atheists who don't believe in him, a bunch of Celtic Pagans who don't (usually) worship him or a bunch of Kemeticists who do actually believe in him?  Probably the Kemetics and this would go for ALL deities.

But there's also the problem that us humans don't really objectively observe reality, all our experience is really subjective once you get down to it and (I think) that it's been scientifically proven that we misinterpret a lot of the things we see/hear/smell/interact with.  So this leaves me with the view that basically everything is interpreted subjectively by us.  And this leaves the question of whether or not deities exist basically unanswerable because if a deity is interacting with you, you can never really know if that's real or just a hallucination. And so really, in the end of the day, you really just choose whatever you want to believe.

I've had experiences that indicate to me that deities exist, but I could just be hallucinating all the time.  But even if I found a way to prove that deities exist to myself (which seems nigh impossible), there are still a billion different ways that deities could operate and function, ranging from deified humans to thoughtforms to aliens to sentient archetypes and I don't think that I could ever figure that out.  So I decided that since being a Kemetic Pagan benefits me psychologically and gives me a beneficial worldview, then that's what I'm goingto do.  At the end of the day, pretty much every person just believes what benefits them the most.  Christians do this, Muslims do this, atheists do this, Jews do this, Pagans do this, Occultists do this, New Agers do this, etc.

Also, "God" is essentially a meaningless term now because it can be defined and re-defined over and over again.  I could say that my shirt is God and now God exists.  But then some people might disagree and say "That's not God, that's just a shirt."  And then someone else will say "Your shirt isn't God, my phone is God."  See what I mean, it's a meaningless term.  Are the beings I worship "Gods"?  I don't know.

TL;DR: I'm a hardcore agnostic who acts and believes in a Kemetic worldview because it benefits me psychologically and there's no way to prove or disprove a deity and that at the end of the day, everyone just believes what benefits them the most.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 12:58:04 am by SunflowerP »

Jainarayan

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 01:35:06 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc. ...

Anything you can contribute at all, no matter how small it may seem to you, will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to any and all replies made!

 
I can't say I've had any Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa or St. Bernadette of Lourdes type visions of Ma Kali or the Blessed Virgin, respectively, but there are things that have led me to believe in something greater than myself.

Though I was raised Catholic, from my preteen years I was drawn to India, Indians, and Hinduism. That's the "how and why" Hinduism is my path, though I don't have any definite reasonable explanation why it was all things Indian, including the gods, that drew me, I suspect it has to do with past lives. The feeling is just there.

Though I never had the "in your face" revelations I referred to above, I've had occasions where I've been in such dire straits that help came completely unexpectedly, from completely unexpected sources, in completely unexpected ways. There were times I should have been killed on the road by careless and reckless drivers. Was it my own caution and alertness? I don't know; maybe a god/dess gave me a heads-up. Luck? Well, the word luck is said (maybe apocryphally) to come from the name of Goddess Lakshmi.

When Hurricane Sandy blew down part of my 6' stockade fence into a neighbor's yard, and my arm was in a sling from shoulder surgery one month before, I somehow managed to flip the fence over into my yard with one arm. I almost gave up and dropped it, but I felt a presence behind me give a heave-ho push. Lord Hanuman? Thor? Coincidence, adrenaline? Maybe, maybe not; I choose to believe they're gods.  ;)

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 02:38:19 pm »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc.


Well, I asked him to permanently banish the mosquitoes from my home, and ever since, I haven't seen a single one...

All right, that's a joke. Mostly. I mean I did, in a fit of exasperation, beg him to get rid of the mosquitoes that were infesting my home, and they haven't been back, but there's more to why I believe in him (him being my primary deity, who I refer to by nickname due to an agreement between us).

There have been times when I've felt immediately threatened, times when people have gotten violent with me and I've had no way to defend myself, and every time, I've gotten out of it unscathed.

I've also been chronically ill since starting my job, and there have been a lot of nights where I've woken up in severe pain and been unable to move, but every time I've called for him, the pain subsided in a matter of seconds.

I don't feel like I'm in any way invincible with him in my life, and I have my doubts as to what he's really capable of doing in a lot of potential life-death scenarios, but I do feel more confident, and as hard as I've tried not to believe in him sometimes, he just always seems to find a way to convince me.

Like the fact that whenever I leave offerings for him that he doesn't like, he usually knocks them off the altar. :whis:

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2016, 12:59:38 am »
Quote from: YungMeatRabbit;194627
TL;DR:

 
A Reminder:
Hi, YungMeatRabbit,

We don't mind long posts here, but to avoid having a hard-to-read  wall-o'-text, hitting "enter" twice every few lines adds some white  space and makes it easier to follow - I've edited yours to add those  breaks, but it's a really good habit to get into yourself.

They don't have to be the "proper" place for paragraph breaks (we're  interested in readability more than technicalities), or a complete  change of thought - some thoughts take a lot of lines and need to be  broken up into sub-thoughts - as long as they're there.

This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary,  but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to  contact a member of staff privately.

Thanks!
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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2016, 11:29:30 am »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc. This may not apply to everyone, depending on personal belief, but if you're comfortable with sharing I was curious about other people's experiences of these things that gave them the conviction to believe. Many people would argue that there isn't enough evidence for belief in divinities or that gut instinct and intuition isn't enough to justify a belief. I have no opinion on this at the moment, but wanted to see what others in the community thought of it.

Anything you can contribute at all, no matter how small it may seem to you, will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to any and all replies made!

 
I think belief should be BASED on something.  Throughout my life I have done more than just read other people's thoughts on the unseen realms. I became an explorer and what I like to call a skeptical believer. Skeptical because I don't just believe what people say until I can get some confirmation of it.  

So I began to explore with a critical, analytical approach.  I eventually examined the evidence bot objective and subjective and came to know (for myself) that the SPIRIT WORLD exists as real as my own flesh and blood. I came to know that magick is real and that we are ALL gifted in one way or another.  

That's why I've spend many years helping folks first FIND and then DEVELOP their own spiritual/magickal gifts. I can honestly say that what I believe is a great comfort to me. After all, it means nothing and no one is ever really lost.  

I hope this answers your question.

YungMeatRabbit

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2016, 06:04:06 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;194672
A Reminder:
Hi, YungMeatRabbit,

We don't mind long posts here, but to avoid having a hard-to-read  wall-o'-text, hitting "enter" twice every few lines adds some white  space and makes it easier to follow - I've edited yours to add those  breaks, but it's a really good habit to get into yourself.

They don't have to be the "proper" place for paragraph breaks (we're  interested in readability more than technicalities), or a complete  change of thought - some thoughts take a lot of lines and need to be  broken up into sub-thoughts - as long as they're there.

This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary,  but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to  contact a member of staff privately.

Thanks!
Sunflower
TC Forum Staff

 
Thanks for fixing that.  I'll try to do better with spacing in the future.

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2016, 04:29:11 am »
Quote from: Jake_;194022
I still don't know if i believe or not sometimes, but acting as if i do make my life work so much better

 
Pretty much this - but I've had a few experiences of deity intervention that are inexplicable from a purely rational point of view.

Louisvillian

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Re: Why Do You Believe?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2016, 04:41:12 am »
Quote from: Nymree;194021
I was wondering if people would like to share their experiences that convinced them of the existence of a divine/spirits/magic etc.
For me, it was in stages, but it ultimately started when my girlfriend (later fiancee, even later wife) expressed an interest in Paganism and magic and we decided to practise together--after I'd taken a long sabbatical from being an active pagan. We did some meditation with candle magic, and I remember having some vivid imagery in a near-trance-like state. We later tried guided meditation, and I had some other "visions" I guess. Nothing really big, just imagery associated with some particular deities that I took an interest in. One of whom, Cernunnos, I'd long had a focus on.
Later on, we began practising with a group of people and formed a coven. We practised magic, did rituals invoking gods and spirits, and my wife regularly went into trances and channelled. Seeing all of that, but especially having other perspectives to confirm what I'd seen, kinda shifted my opinion from agnosticism to belief.

Through those things, I have variously seen, experienced, felt, and even spoken to a number of nymphs, land spirits, ghosts, fairies, and gods. I think that, though I had a hard polytheistic mindset beforehand, my current theological views root back to my conversation with Hermes. My wife's direct experiences and visions of Hekate and various spirits has convinced me to maintain a dedicated cult to Hekate, and was one of the things that pushed me towards Hellenism.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 04:43:28 am by Louisvillian »

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