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Author Topic: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic  (Read 2513 times)

MamaThistle

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CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« on: May 23, 2016, 11:37:23 am »
So I have begun my study of the Gaelic Polytheism, I have been using Celtic Re-constructionist and Gaol Naofa sites for guidance. I am attracted to the structure of this religion.

In my studying, there have been a few mentions of magic, but they seem to prefer the term folk magic and reject many of the Wiccan practices (circles, astral projection, etc). In my study of Wicca/witchcraft these have been the practices I least understood/used.

My problem is the 'folk magic' in their practice is not defined very well. I am assuming this includes candles, crystals, herbs, etc. Am I right in this assumption?
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MamaThistle

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 03:03:29 pm »
Quote from: VelvetHammer;191725
So I have begun my study of the Gaelic Polytheism, I have been using Celtic Re-constructionist and Gaol Naofa sites for guidance. I am attracted to the structure of this religion.

In my studying, there have been a few mentions of magic, but they seem to prefer the term folk magic and reject many of the Wiccan practices (circles, astral projection, etc). In my study of Wicca/witchcraft these have been the practices I least understood/used.

My problem is the 'folk magic' in their practice is not defined very well. I am assuming this includes candles, crystals, herbs, etc. Am I right in this assumption?

 
So if anyone else was wondering about this. I did more searching on the Gaol Naofa site and they seem to frown upon healing crystals specifically. Most likely because it's associated with new age.

However I found this blog which mentions healing stones in folklore.

http://lairbhan.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-use-of-stones-and-crystals-in.html?m=1

I haven't looked too closely into her sources, but I think it shows that as long as you are trying to respecting the tradition with the best of your ability it should be a problem for reconstructionists. :)
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Faemon

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 09:54:26 pm »
Quote from: VelvetHammer;191725
So I have begun my study of the Gaelic Polytheism, I have been using Celtic Re-constructionist and Gaol Naofa sites for guidance. I am attracted to the structure of this religion.

In my studying, there have been a few mentions of magic, but they seem to prefer the term folk magic and reject many of the Wiccan practices (...) My problem is the 'folk magic' in their practice is not defined very well. I am assuming this includes candles, crystals, herbs, etc. Am I right in this assumption?


I'd come to suppose that, by the nature of folk magic, as in stuff you pick up on from other people who picked up on it from other people that all maybe kinda sorta probably does a thing...that it really is going to be ambiguously defined, as opposed to written down in a "prepare these ingredients or items you will need and proceed with step 1, step 2, step 3 (and refer to a separate tome for the metaphysical theory, cross-referenced with still another tome)"? Until, that is, folk magic isn't defined as opposed to that necessarily, because literacy rates are so much higher now, and standards of what's worthy of publishing with the most accessibility perhaps much lower (to hear some people have at it.) :p

Because, all that said, if you're talking Fairy Doctor stuff...I first read about that from Speranza Wilde. Don't know how that fits into Recon or even if it does, but is that maybe slightly closer to what you're looking for?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 09:56:30 pm by Faemon »
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MamaThistle

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 10:54:16 am »
Quote from: Faemon;191766
I'd come to suppose that, by the nature of folk magic, as in stuff you pick up on from other people who picked up on it from other people that all maybe kinda sorta probably does a thing...that it really is going to be ambiguously defined, as opposed to written down in a "prepare these ingredients or items you will need and proceed with step 1, step 2, step 3 (and refer to a separate tome for the metaphysical theory, cross-referenced with still another tome)"? Until, that is, folk magic isn't defined as opposed to that necessarily, because literacy rates are so much higher now, and standards of what's worthy of publishing with the most accessibility perhaps much lower (to hear some people have at it.) :p

Because, all that said, if you're talking Fairy Doctor stuff...I first read about that from Speranza Wilde. Don't know how that fits into Recon or even if it does, but is that maybe slightly closer to what you're looking for?


I agree on the folk magic being ambiguously defined in general. Reconstruction seems to have more specific ideas of what folk magic in in terms of tradition, some of it is a little unclear though. This question my not be a beginners question in nature though, as it seems there is some disagreement among Reconstructionists. It interesting tho.

Ooo.. yes I love Fairy Doctor stuff. There is definitely some of that in Recon, but not everyone is into it. I am though, thank you! :D:
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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2016, 08:18:36 pm »
Quote from: VelvetHammer;191725
I am assuming this includes candles, crystals, herbs, etc. Am I right in this assumption?

You are partially right.

Herbals yes. Though some are avoided. I keep a massive garden in the backyard. Gigantic. I just put in a new section which is 3'x4' and has 40-50 plants in it already for various needs. I may add more. That's not including the pots.

Some crystals may be considered. Some & may be. Not all and only those with specific purpose. Anything dubbed "healing" such as those to deal with anxiety, etc., etc., etc., however, most if not all view such as widely unacceptable.

Candles yes to degree. However, they are used in the same sense as they once were. So pretty "healing" candles or whatever to heal, cleanse, etc., etc., etc. are again widely considered by most as unacceptable. Incense for example. Just old "plain jane" candles.


As for this
http://lairbhan.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-use-of-stones-and-crystals-in.html?m=1

Is most likely just some new ager. If he/she used either Gaelic or Celtic in their blog then maybe I'd give them credit. But for legit practice, no.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:19:26 pm by Cyrianne »

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2016, 10:51:41 pm »
Quote from: Cyrianne;192934
Is most likely just some new ager. If he/she used either Gaelic or Celtic in their blog then maybe I'd give them credit. But for legit practice, no.

 
Of course, using a non-native language totally makes everything more genuine and spiritual.  Just ask the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church!  It's critically important to be as inaccessible as possible to those without a properly elite education, even when being an informational resource.
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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2016, 10:57:28 pm »
Quote from: Cyrianne;192934

Is most likely just some new ager. If he/she used either Gaelic or Celtic in their blog then maybe I'd give them credit. But for legit practice, no.

 
...Celtic isn't a language. It's a language *family* and a much-disagreed-upon culture group. :whis:
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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2016, 06:39:40 am »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;192946
...Celtic isn't a language. It's a language *family*

No you don't say. Oh my god I didn't know that.

Now how to put this nicely? Hmmm... the response, mighty hawk, was a generalization of the linguistics. Celtic includes Gaelic languages & the Brythonic languages. The typical language spoken would be Gaelic for Gaelic polytheism obviously, however, that doesn't mean it'd be the only language spoken hence the inclusion of Celtic.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 06:40:42 am by Cyrianne »

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 06:46:55 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;192945
Of course, using a non-native language totally makes everything more genuine and spiritual.  Just ask the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church!  It's critically important to be as inaccessible as possible to those without a properly elite education, even when being an informational resource.

Reread the entire post & then apply my response to the entire post. You'll see that the OP is questioning the blog. The fact that the blogger mentions crystals which are considered unacceptable puts one strike against them already.

If the person had spoken a Gaelic language or one of the other Celtic languages which may associate with Gaelic polytheism would put their use of crystals as having more merit because there is a good chance if they did speak such a language that they might be a sub-branch of Gaelic polytheism which says crystals are okay.

This is how one does legit research by the way. If something doesn't match with the norm then you try to find something to match the norm. The language usage would be that match. Someone claiming to follow a belief but has no match... well anyone can claim anything on the internet. Doesn't make it real.

Research just isn't pick & choose whatever you agree with & ignore everything else. If it was well we'd never have gotten past the Dark Ages.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 06:48:28 am by Cyrianne »

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 10:31:35 am »
Quote from: Cyrianne;192962
If the person had spoken a Gaelic language or one of the other Celtic languages which may associate with Gaelic polytheism would put their use of crystals as having more merit because there is a good chance if they did speak such a language that they might be a sub-branch of Gaelic polytheism which says crystals are okay.


The language makes no indication of whether or not they practice such a thing.  Language is not an indicator of practice, knowledge, or affiliation.  Using a language foreign to one's audience is not effective communication with that audience.  Using such a language is not, in fact, a universal requirement for legitimate practice of religion, and displaying it if one uses it is not usually useful.  (Many people argue that it is helpful to have the knowledge; far fewer argue that it is essential.)

Raising something completely irrelevant to the substance of the information as if it were a critique of the data presented is worse than useless; it's a substitution of prejudices for facts and actual analysis of content.  Someone's information is correct or incorrect depending on the information, not about whether or not it is written in English, Cymraeg, or Esperanto.  If you have nothing other than prejudice to offer, you are not providing anything of value; you are certainly not actually doing the research, which would require actually evaluating the content rather than sneering at the language used.

In the case of the post linked, a critique of the information provided would likely include a discussion of the sources cited and evaluation of whether or not they were, in fact, good sources.  The fact that the poster of the link provided sources to check their information is a step up from many bloggers purporting to put out information; they are after all providing the opportunity for others to offer substantial critique, rather than junior high school sniping about whether or not their clothes or language are sufficiently fashionable to be worth listening to.
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Jenett

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 11:44:26 am »
Quote from: Cyrianne;192962
Reread the entire post & then apply my response to the entire post. You'll see that the OP is questioning the blog. The fact that the blogger mentions crystals which are considered unacceptable puts one strike against them already.

Let's back up a couple of steps here.

So, the original post mentioning this blog post from VelvetHammer mentions that she had been looking at the Gaol Naofa site, and they had indicated that crystal use could be problematic.

What did they actually say:
A search on that site for the word crystal brings up one page, which is about how to spot offensive ceremonies. It lists "They talk about “the healing energy of crystals.” among many other items that are clearly much more New Age. (And that particular *phrasing* certainly comes from the more New Age end of the spectrum.)

It doesn't speak to whether any other use of stones is problematic. (I also did a quick search on the site for the words 'stone' and 'healing' but it doesn't pull up anything directly relevant to this question.)

It's also good to remember that this is a page from one group, and no matter how great a given group is, they're not a single perfect source (because no given source is). No website has information about every possible area of knowledge on a topic, people may not be aware of particular evidence for a topic (because it hasn't come up for them), and so on.

(Of course, if there were other sources, you'd want to look at what they said in a similar method: are they against all crystals, or particular applications? Do they give any sources or details for their reasoning? They don't in that post.)

What does the blog post we're evaluating actually say?
Then we have the blog post from the Living Liminally blog.

Blog posts are not formal research reports: this one does a great job of providing references for the material. (I might have liked page numbers, but really, 'gave the specific book this specific reference comes from' is so much better than most people doing informal writeups do.)

About the sources:
The books referenced might or might not be great sources: basically, the Victorians had this thing about collecting lots of folklore that may or may not be actually well-collected. Some of it was, some of it wasn't, you have to look at the actual details. (And it's been a while since the 1950s, so there is almost certainly some newer work talking about this somewhere, though maybe not something collecting those particular materials.)

However, the way this material is explained in the blog post is basically "Here are these references, you can decide for yourself whether or not this is relevant for your practice." It's also worth noting that this is not "this particular mineral has these very specific properties" but rather something a bit different: that particular individual 'hold this in your hand' stones were seen to have that effect (if one believes the sources.)

It's also worth noting here that the quoted texts in that blog talk about stones (and often round stones) rather than crystals (or are often talking about rock crystal, which is a specific descriptive name). As any geologist can tell you, stones and crystals are two different things. As any folklorist can tell you, folk names for things can change over time or not refer to what you assume they do if you're reading that text in 2016.

So, now, we're at 'maybe those sources are worth looking at a bit more' (which is a useful place to start), and we have an idea of what one person (the blog author) thinks about that.

For example, if we look at the first source mentioned, a little Googling suggests that G.F. Black was a librarian and researcher particularly interested in Scotland (and in magical and witchcraft aspects). A copy of the book is available online, so we can look at what he says directly very easily. We can probably (based on his professional record) assume that his research  was good by the standards of the day, but want to remember that standards have changed about some things.

(One can do the same thing with the other two sources, which I leave as an exercise to the reader.)

So, what about that blog author?
Her name - Morgan Daimler - is mentioned in the blurb at the bottom, and a little brief Googling quickly turns up a recentish interview with her that gives a good description of her path, how she views it.

VelvetHammer (or anyone else) can use this to calibrate whether the information on that blog is likely to be useful to them (coming from a similar approach) or not. (I'd also recommend taking a look at the rest of the blog and seeing how other posts seem to fit).

However, it's quickly obvious that this is someone who's been doing this stuff for a good while, whose books and materials speak to other people, and who seems to have a sustainable practice that works for them, all of which might be reasons to keep reading rather than writing them off based on superficial factors, especially if one is not being exceedingly strictly reconstructionist.

What research standards do we apply?
Leaving aside the fact this isn't an academic article (in the sense of being peer reviewed and written for an academic audience), applying purely academic methods for religious research doesn't actually work that well.

Part of this has to do with how research is taught in school (there's a long discussion to be had here about bibiographic research - what's often taught up into college - versus process based research, but that's a whole other topic.)

But it's even more so because academic research has different goals than research for personal religious work, and because so many of the areas that we talk about for religious work have fairly limited information about many topics.

(A few brief examples: There's not a lot of information from the British Isles that was written down when it was practiced. We have very little information about household domestic religious practice for a number of cultures. We know that a lot of information has been lost or altered over time (and we know it's been altered, but can't always tell how.))

The question of language
Because the material about folk practices is so fragmented, and because there are a wide range of languages and dialects in question, many people using materials about folk practices (or marginally documented religious practices) in the British Isles are never going to be fluent readers, writers, or speakers of all the languages that might be relevant.

Besides, of course, the fact that language learning is not a simple thing: it takes time, resources, and access to teachers who can teach the vocabulary, form, and cultural context for the material we're interested in reading. I'm currently slowly working on learning some basic Welsh, but "I would like to eat lamb" is a long way from being able to read a Welsh text in the original.

Without that degree of fluency, I may not understand that a particular phrase is a reference to another story, or that a particular thing that looks like a number just means 'a whole uncountable lot', or that a particular grammatical construction indicates that the author wants to emphasise that the author is telling the truth.

All of these are translation considerations that people fluent with the language and context can do that people without that experience can't. Getting to that degree of fluency if you don't grow up with it is a whole lot more work than basic communication, or even being able to do some simple analysis on your own.

And of course, some languages and dialects are much more accessible than others: there are some where you basically have to find a native speaker and hope they like you enough to hang out long enough for you to learn the language.

Much of the time, researchers may need to rely on translations from outside their immediate expertise: this a thing good research process will accomodate.

To conclude:
Quote
Research just isn't pick & choose whatever you agree with & ignore everything else. If it was well we'd never have gotten past the Dark Ages.

No, it isn't. But it also isn't ignoring information that is inconvenient to one's pet theories. Dismissing an informally written text for not meeting some unusual standards isn't good research. It might save you time, it might sound good if you're trying to score points. But it's probably not going to help you get any further.

The post in question is something I wouldn't trust as the final word on the topic, but it is something that points at additional sources, provides enough summary to help the reader decide if they want to look at those sources in more detail, and suggests that 'the Celts never used stones at all' is probably wrong. That's pretty useful information for VelvetHammer's original question, even if it means more research work might be needed.

Finally, in rummaging for some previous conversations, I'd suggest an earlier thread on the forum, called Does subjective experience trump academic sources?. It has some contentious parts, but it also has some great explanations from Catja, a longtime forum member and professor whose work includes folklore, about some of the issues with more academic sourcing and approaches when working with religious material. (her posts start at post 36, but there's some discussion earlier in the thread that may be of interest to people wanting to improve their research skills)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 11:59:43 am by Jenett »
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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2016, 12:04:28 pm »
Quote from: Cyrianne;192961

Now how to put this nicely? Hmmm... the response, mighty hawk, was a generalization of the linguistics. Celtic includes Gaelic languages & the Brythonic languages. The typical language spoken would be Gaelic for Gaelic polytheism obviously, however, that doesn't mean it'd be the only language spoken hence the inclusion of Celtic.

 
Ooooh, I'm mighty now! I like that! :D:

Specifics are helpful; generalizations are not. Especially when "Celtic" is an oft-contested and nebulous descriptor. I mean, most people forget that Gaul is generally accepted as a nation of the Continental Celt variety.
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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2016, 05:27:47 pm »
Quote from: Cyrianne;192961
No you don't say. Oh my god I didn't know that.

Now how to put this nicely? Hmmm... the response, mighty hawk, was a generalization of the linguistics. Celtic includes Gaelic languages & the Brythonic languages. The typical language spoken would be Gaelic for Gaelic polytheism obviously, however, that doesn't mean it'd be the only language spoken hence the inclusion of Celtic.

Which Gaelic language? :) Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx?
 
Quote from: Cyrianne;192934
As for this
http://lairbhan.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-use-of-stones-and-crystals-in.html?m=1

Is most likely just some new ager. If he/she used either Gaelic or Celtic in their blog then maybe I'd give them credit. But for legit practice, no.

This blogger is no 'new-ager'- have you read their recent material? Obviously not.
They're one of the most well-informed pagans I've met - for example, their Old Irish translations are excellent (and I can say that as someone with an academic background in it). I've had regular contact with them regarding academic material and have assisted them in accessing material personally.
I'd recommend their blog to any Gaelic Polytheist as they know their stuff.

As for the OP, from an Irish point of view I can say that folk magic is definitely something which is active here to this day. There is a history of the use of charms, etc. and the national folklore archives here have an incredible wealth of material on the subject. I recently attended a two-day conference on this very topic!
I definitely think its important to read up and study the folk magic practices as it really adds to the cultural understanding of those interested in Irish polytheism (and I'm sure Scottish-focused too! :D: ).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 05:31:28 pm by Oíche »
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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2016, 06:36:29 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;192986
Ooooh, I'm mighty now! I like that! :D:
.

You've always been mighty, Hawke, you only needed to believe in yourself ~

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Re: CR/Gaelic Polytheism and folk magic
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2016, 06:46:31 pm »
Quote from: Jack;193040
You've always been mighty, Hawke, you only needed to believe in yourself ~

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Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

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