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Author Topic: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent  (Read 6463 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2016, 11:09:07 pm »
Quote from: Skumring;192070
Actually, I was referring to the belief that when we die we cease to exist since Atheists tend to disbelieve in any sort of afterlife.

 
That's hardly an end to all things unless you're a solipsist.
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Skumring

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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2016, 12:47:49 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;192073
That's hardly an end to all things unless you're a solipsist.

 
Since we do not know the true nature of the Universe how can we say that we are not in a shared immersion and the experiencer's version of said Universe does not die with them and also cease to exist?

A solipsism is as valid as any other argument in any discussion of life after physical death since we have no idea what the truth is aside from UPG.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2016, 10:33:37 am »
Quote from: Skumring;192080
A solipsism is as valid as any other argument in any discussion of life after physical death since we have no idea what the truth is aside from UPG.

 
I actually think it's a bit of a stretch to imagine the universe came into being with my consciousness and would disappear with my death, but whatever floats your boat.

I'm still going to do the best job I can to raise my kids, rather than assume they'll wink out of being when I kick it.

I would file solipsism as "Even if true, useless."
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2016, 03:35:13 pm »
Quote from: Skumring;192070
Actually, I was referring to the belief that when we die we cease to exist since Atheists tend to disbelieve in any sort of afterlife.

 
Even setting aside the fact that that's not necessarily a belief in "the end of all things" (as has been said already)...

I'm of the opinion that that particular form of disbelief in afterlife itself treads very close to belief in reincarnation.

So, say we cease to exist when we die--we become "nothing." The question then becomes, where did our soul/self/consciousness/etc come from when we were born? Also from nothing.

Everyone is born in one way or another; everyone dies. Even stripped of as much mysticism as possible, this is a unifying factor and the faintest hint of a cycle.
"The peacock can show its whole tail at once, but I can only tell you a story."
--JAMES ALAN GARDNER

LilacRaveclaw

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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 06:26:58 pm »
Quote from: Eastling;191600
"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." (Everything changes; nothing perishes.) -- Ovid

"Everything dies, baby, that's a fact. But maybe everything that dies someday comes back." -- Bruce Springsteen

A lot of religions and philosophies are based in the idea of cycles--that things endlessly wax and wane, die and return and die again. Science and the natural world often seems to support this.

On the other hand, many cosmologies and philosophies also suggest that people and things in general have degraded since Creation and continue to do so. Again, you can find support for this in science.

So we have two opposing concepts here: the idea that existence is a tight, eternal loop (perhaps one that looks something like ∞), and the idea that existence is an ever-widening entropic gyre that will someday dissolve.

There's one more possibility: existence is an ever-rising spiral cycling its way around to some higher apotheosis. That things improve instead of worsen, ascend instead of decline. This seems relatively rare in religion and philosophy, but it crops up now and again. You can argue that the same is true for science too.

Which is reflected in your belief systems? How is the issue dealt with there? What other metaphysical paradoxes does it touch upon?

 
The spiral. Energy can't be created or destroyed. Right? Isn't that basic science?


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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2016, 02:41:12 am »
Quote from: Skumring;192041
It seems to me that the only belief systems which favor an ultimate end to all things or with a final end of paradise/hell are the Middle Eastern ones and Atheism. Is this actually the case or are there a few I haven't heard of before now?

I cannot comment enough on the scientific aspect of the question, and I do not think we can ultimately know, so this is a question that is more or less open in my spirituality and I try to think of it in different ways.

In my personal life dying and rising or reincarnating is a constant process from moment to moment.  I am not the same person as I was ten years ago or five minutes ago, and I think this works on a physical and psychological level.

So if there is a big crunch and another big bang that would be interesting and is nice to contemplate.  And I would like to think there are numerous parallel universes in which life can continue to evolve even if this one ends in heat death.

When I think about my own identity I like to think of it like this: I am an extension of the universe, and the universe is a greater part of me.  Another way to ponder it is to ask, where does my self end and everything else begin?

And that changes how one might think of death quite a bit and what eternal life could look like.  It is also interesting to ponder heat death in relation to what the self is, too, if there is no substantial stable core to the self.  Would that be nirvana for everyone?

The description of death after the souls of the deceased were liberated in the Golden Compass triology did strike me as peaceful and similar to what a heat death for the universe would be like on a smaller scale.  We dissolve, and later everything else will fully dissolve, too.

Dealing with personal death can be easier if we think of the elements of our body becoming recycled, our ideas passed on, and so forth, and the point I made about essentially identifying myself with the entire universe makes it easier still.

But the possible heat death of the universe can be more difficult if there are no other universes within a multiverse with even order, let alone life.  To address it in spiritual terms -- and again I keep this open because I am ultimately agnostic on this matter -- I would tend to think of that "nothing" in metaphhorical terms, to make it "something" that my mind can grasp more easily: rest, peace, contentment, even bliss.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 02:47:59 am by EclecticWheel »
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Re: Entropy vs. infinity, and decline vs. ascent
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2016, 08:22:45 am »
Quote from: Sefiru;191842
This assumes that Creation occurred some time in the far past; I disagree.

In my view, the future does not exist, and the past does exist and cannot be unmade; creation is happening right now, which we experience as the present. This moment never existed before, but from now on, it always will have happened.  

(There was a thread a while back about the nature of space-time, where I described time as a growing crystal.)

Of course, since humans are able to choose what does and does not happen, we are active participants in creation (scary thought!)

I don't know if the universe will grow into the future forever, or eventually stop; but if it does end, it won't be because the universe is degraded or dissolved, but because it is completed.

 
The universe was created five minutes ago.

Also, five seconds ago.

Also, .05 seconds ago. Also, .000005 seconds ago. Also, 5E-12 seconds ago. Also....

Trillions upon trillions upon trillions of universes all building upon one another; often extremely similar but, in some cases, radically different. When the infinitesimal interval between them finally converges to zero, then the structure of the universe will be complete.

That doesn't mean the universe will end; oh, by no means. Instead, it means that things will really just be getting started....

[Just to make it clear: Yes, this is my OPINION. But I happen to believe that it coincides with Truth.]
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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