The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

I have yet to decide whether following a religion is even for me, or if I am better off staying with my view of the Universe. So my questions are for now:

Can anyone relate to my current situation ?

Does anyone have any ideas, thoughts or advice on becoming more accepting of Polytheism (specifically Celtic, Germanic, Gaellic Heathenry or Reconstructionism) in general ? How to allow ones self be more open to a totally new experience, more receptive of a spiritual, religious view of the Universe or at least this world ?

I would definitely like to try so any ideas would be helpful.

 
I can't give you too much advice, because learning to have faith is a very personal experience. For myself, I found that what it really took was a life change that made me feel more stable and less stressed out, freeing up my emotional energy to explore my faith.

(Well, that and moving to a state that legalized marijuana, but that's also personal.)

Being on the right medications also helps; I find that I doubt more and fail to connect to the divine when my depression isn't well-treated.

So, in short, I recommend first doing everything you can to get your life and the workings of your mind in order, so that you have a stable foundation to explore from.

As a side note, I'd also recommend shedding the preconception that (neo)pagan polytheism is inherently different than mainstream or monotheist faiths in some moral way. All religion has failure states and successes alike; it depends on how thoughtful you are in implementing it. For myself, my pagan reachings are strongly influenced by my Jewish upbringing.

Does anyone have any ideas, thoughts or advice on becoming more accepting of Polytheism (specifically Celtic, Germanic, Gaellic Heathenry or Reconstructionism) in general ? How to allow ones self be more open to a totally new experience, more receptive of a spiritual, religious view of the Universe or at least this world ?

 
Two questions, which are actually kind of the same question:

What do you think your issues with acceptance are?

Do you read poetry?

When i say anti-religious I am really only thinking about Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc the main stream religions.

None of them are internally homogenous. Some authors from these religions might be valuable reading even for some Pagans, at least those who practice magic, for instance: Sefer Yetzirah and Joseph Gikatilla's Gates of Light (Jewish), Marsilio Ficino's Book of Life, Agrippa's Three Books on Occult Philosophy and the works of Jakob Böhme (Christian), and the poems by Jalaluddin Rumi and the works of Mulla Sadra (Moslem).

I have yet to decide whether following a religion is even for me, or if I am better off staying with my view of the Universe.

Do you really have to chose? Why not staying with your view of the Universe and follow a religion that is for you? It will perhaps change the way you relate to the Universe, but that is another thing, isn't it?

How to allow ones self be more open to a totally new experience, more receptive of a spiritual, religious view of the Universe or at least this world ?

A very basic exercise, which can be practiced by persons of any religion and none, is to meditate without any mental object, using breathing as a reminder of letting-go, but do not force mental content away - acknowledge that a mental content has arisen until it goes away without effort, and then return your focus on your breathing. Sit on a zafu, a meditation bench or a chair with a straight back and forward-leaning thin meditation cushion. The ideal position for the spine minimize any sway-back, and makes breathing easy. This exercise is a good preparation for or conclusion of many other practices. A short warning: Persons with unresolved bad memories might in some cases have to face this personal luggage, and that process is not always pleasant. Deep meditation is not always pleasant. Sometimes it takes effort to just sit, but that is just a phase, as everything else. Wait and see, and it will become better.

Does anyone have any ideas, thoughts or advice on becoming more accepting of Polytheism (specifically Celtic, Germanic, Gaellic Heathenry or Reconstructionism) in general ?

In Germanic religion, specifically the Norse version of it, the beginning of the Winter half of the year (end of October), the middle of the Winter half-year (end of January), the beginning of the Summer half of the year (end of April) and the middle of the Summer half-year (end of July) were acknowledged with ceremonial drinking and - in three of these cases - sacrifices. This was a concern for the entire society, and not primarily for the individual. The most domestic and private of these four celebrations was the Elves blót in late October.

In Irish religion (but keep in mind that the descriptions of these festivals were written half a millennium after the conversion to Christianity) four times of the year were celebrated: Early November (Samhain), early February (Imbolc), early May (Beltene, but I am not sure of the spelling of it) and early August (Lughnasadh).

To participate in a religious rite is not the same thing as sharing the same world-view as other participants. Pre-Christian Pagans had many different views on their own religion. Some ancient Romans were not very far from an Agnostic worldview, but anyhow insisted on the continuation of religious customs inherited from the ancestors, as a show of Romanitas ('romanhood'), a cultivation of politeness and respect for the ancestors themselves. The Egyptian priest Chaeremon of Alexandria viewed the Egyptian gods as personifications of natural phenomena.

It is not necessary for Pagans (old or modern) to behave as the polytheistic equivalents to Evangelical/Charismatic Christians. Most of the time, Pagan rites does not go emotional (they might sometimes, but that does also depend on personal disposition). Most of the time, deities does not practice micro-management, and I would anyhow treat with suspicion anyone who claims to have been commanded to perform something mundane (become a used car salesman!) or harm-inflicting (donate all your money to Preacher Bob/High Priestess Lady Pixie Wolfbroom/Guru Mahabrahmasanghaputra Smith!) on explicit order by (hereby insert the term applicable: Holy Spirit/Virgin Mary/The Goddess/Isis/O∂in/Loki/Master Hilarion/le Roi du monde/telepathic space dolphins/The Flying Spaghetti Monster).

I just had to comment on this, because I'm always amused by this paraphrase, as this statement to me could actually be taken two ways. Yes, opioids used improperly can dull the senses and stunt the act of reason. But they, like religion, can also be used to ease those who are suffering and make tolerable those pains that would otherwise be unbearable. Marx and Lenin argued against religion because they saw it as a tool for furthering social inequality, but that doesn't mean that the tool can serve no other purposes.

It's also worth noting that while Marx was against religion, the original argument was way more nuanced than people often realise when it's shortened. A longer version of it to give a bit more context:

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

I can't give you too much advice, because learning to have faith is a very personal experience. For myself, I found that what it really took was a life change that made me feel more stable and less stressed out, freeing up my emotional energy to explore my faith.

(Well, that and moving to a state that legalized marijuana, but that's also personal.)

Being on the right medications also helps; I find that I doubt more and fail to connect to the divine when my depression isn't well-treated.

So, in short, I recommend first doing everything you can to get your life and the workings of your mind in order, so that you have a stable foundation to explore from.

As a side note, I'd also recommend shedding the preconception that (neo)pagan polytheism is inherently different than mainstream or monotheist faiths in some moral way. All religion has failure states and successes alike; it depends on how thoughtful you are in implementing it. For myself, my pagan reachings are strongly influenced by my Jewish upbringing.

 
I certainly agree that learning to have any faith is a very personal experience. A stable foundation is something I had not considered even though, on reflecting, it is very obvious. Although I suffer from Bipolar Disorder I have successfully transitioned onto a completely new medication regime 2 years ago which I am very comfortable with and I feel so much better for it. I don't think I will ever consider myself as stable as someone with no trace of mental illness but these days I feel like a different person compared to the very long time I spent going nowhere emotionally. Before I would not have considered trying to grow spiritually and exploring another path in life. Now I have the energy and a far healthier state of mind.

I do not think that the main stream religions are inherently different morally, I have just never wanted to be a part of them, they hold little or no interest to me and I would never consider following them.

Aye, I know what you mean. I come from a country that was part of the USSR where they had state atheism. The funny thing was that while religions were officially proclaimed as the people's opium, and churches were closed down, destroyed, or repurposed, people were still allowed to worship in private (many people had icons, crosses, and so on in their homes, some churches would still function even), so once the Union collapsed, the churches returned en force. My country, for example, has ~94% of its population as declared christians of various denominations.

My parents, being intellectuals (father is a philosopher and a political scientist; mother is a doctor) educated me to be a decent person, and never took me to church (though they still baptised me when I was a kid, it's more of a cultural thing than an actually religions one). As a scientist (and as a person born in the USSR), my dad used to be an atheist, but later he figured that there must be something out there, some kind of entity that created the universe, after all, the Big Bang did not come from nothing, even those particles had to appear from somewhere, right? He respects the church as being an institution that could survive for so long, but does not agree with their interpretation or practices. My mother, on the other hand, is a positivist agnostic, I think. She claims not to know if there is a god, but still goes to church when strange stuff happens. As for me, I never could understand why people bowed to icons, kissed crosses, etc. Sure, as I kid I was afraid of monsters, and I hoped there's some power that'll protect me from them (because even as a kid, I could understand that should aliens or terminators come, my parents won't be able to protect me despite their best efforts), but I never really prayed as one prays.

In primary school, I was getting fed up with religious education (it was called Moral and Spritual Education, we had one lesson a week, had to pray, had to listen to a priest lecturing us, etc.). In middle school, I grew to hate religions because I veiwed them as stupid and useless (another reason was because my classmates - whom I hated, and who hated me - were all delcared christians, so it was also a way of getting to them). I started reading about occultism, then I got curious about satanism (not that much though), then I started reading Nietzsche. All this gave me context, and an 'intellectual' explanation as to why religions are bad. Additionally, I was watching all those fancy american movies like Constantine and Supernatural that made kicks at christianity. Oh, did I mention that at school, we were subconciously taught to hate muslims? Studying history and literature we read a lot about the 'evil' Ottomans...well, maybe it's just me, I'm somewhat impressionable. But while I did imagine the muslims to be evil, I still understood that they were just people, and therefore could be reasoned with, still had feelings, etc., so I didn't hate them.

After school, I went to univeristy to study political science, and there I understood that religions were less about mysticism and more about control over people (yeah, I didn't read all that much Nietzsche after all), but at the same time, I was always interested in people's cultures, and thus I saw christianity and islam as just sects of judaism that have supressed the local religions of peoples, thereby altering their cultures. To me, religion is a cultural product, not a mystical one.

Note: I have nothing against Jews, I like and respect them, but I think that if one should believe in a deity, that deity should be local, not an imported off-shot of the some other culture's (Jewish, in this case) deity.

So I started researching the pre-christan faith of my people. While my country was already founded christian, it's ancestors were not. Our people come from the Thracians, Scythians, Greeks, Goths, Slavs, etc., none of which were originally christian, and since the Thracians and Scythians were among the first to inhabit the region, I figured I'd go with their beliefs. The info is scarse, and a lot of it is made up (the main reason why most, if not all reconstruction religions are syncretic), so it's not easy. The main reason why I'm doing it is because I can relate to it, and because I want to re-educate my people to respect themselves. I think religions should come naturally to people, not through dogma.

Note: Yes, I'm aware the whole "re-educate to respect yourself" sounds nazi, and I don't want it to become that way. This is why everything needs to be taken into consideration, so that while it's an ethnic religion, it doesn't promote ethnic elitism.

So to answer your question about how to accept polyteism, I can say - try to find something you yourself can relate to. In my case, it's the Thracian faith.
Not all religions come into opposition with science as well! The catholic Saint Augustine (who was a priest and a scientist in life), for example, considered the two should walk together.
In the end, faith is less about this world, and more about the other one; about giving hope to the weak, foolish, and desperate; about answering the questions that science cannot yet answer; and about making people behave if they're too dumb to understand the law.

As to your question about new experiences. Well, all you need to do is just take a step towards forward, and opportunities will reveal themselves. That is to say, depending on how far you're willing to go trying new things. For example, some faiths practice the use of psychotropic substances like poisonous mushrooms, berries, etc., while others only use wine; some consider sexual acts important, others don't; and so on, and so forth. Music, scents, scenery, lighting, and how charismatic the priest are, are also important aspects of 'enjoying' a religion and increasing one's level of faith. Oh yeah, and there's the herd instinct also - the more people during mass say they spoke to god, the more people're gonna relate/ believe them, and by extension, the priest.

All in all, find yourself a religion/ faith that interest you, learn about its practices and details (like what type of incense they use, if any), and try 'em out. Just try to keep an open mind while you're at it.

Oh yeah, and try to avoid those destructive cults.

That was a very interesting life experience you have had, thank you for sharing ! I think the State Atheism may have corresponded to my beliefs if I were in that situation but I do believe that everyone has a right to follow their own path as long as it does not have a detrimental affect on others. My Father is Christian (although I have not been baptised)but he does have a much wider view of the Universe than a devout follower. He does not go to church regularly, or pray daily etc, just the occasional Christmas service and even then it may be a church in another town or city. Its good that you formed your own view of Muslims despite being subconsciously taught to hate them, I'm a strong believer in forming your own opinions, your own view of the world despite your surroundings.

I can relate to the Pagan religions which I have chosen to focus on. Their closeness to nature is very appealing and I see nothing, from what I have read about them so far, which I disagree with or find objectionable. Taking a step forward sounds like good advice, when the moment feels right and my mind is clear I will take that step and see where it leads me, trying to keep an open mind. Destructive cults are definitely off the menu !

Two questions, which are actually kind of the same question:

What do you think your issues with acceptance are?

Do you read poetry?

My issues with acceptance. Its hard to define exactly, I guess its that I have always rejected the notion of the existence of a single all powerful eternal entity who is responsible for creating life on Earth. I believe in evolution, science, things which are provable, measurable, observable in a laboratory. But I cannot ignore the fact that some things do not fall into this scientific view, that there is an immense range of things the human race has not yet discovered, that there are coincidences in nature that cannot be explained. I need to allow that part of my view of things to expand and be explored.

I read poetry in high school as part of my studies and did find a few of the Authors quite interesting especially John Foulcher (an imagist), others made no impression on me. I have not read poetry since then.  
 

I just had to comment on this, because I'm always amused by this paraphrase, as this statement to me could actually be taken two ways. Yes, opioids used improperly can dull the senses and stunt the act of reason. But they, like religion, can also be used to ease those who are suffering and make tolerable those pains that would otherwise be unbearable. Marx and Lenin argued against religion because they saw it as a tool for furthering social inequality, but that doesn't mean that the tool can serve no other purposes.

I can definitely sympathize with you, Oskar, because I come from a heavily scientific background myself. Being in nursing school we're really big on evidence-based practice: if you can't prove it with numbers and data, it may as well not even exist. But there's a dichotomy there where there are certain things that we deal with that we know there can never be direct evidence or quantifying; subjective things such as pain or nausea. There may be confounding factors, such as moaning or sweating, but not always. Even though a client of ours can never actually "prove" they're in pain, we treat it anyway.

Religious experience is the same way. I've had experiences that profoundly affected me, a sense of interconnectedness with creation I can't even begin to describe. This experience, like pain, is something that anyone else who has ever had can identify with immediately, but we know there's no way to measure or quantify it so we just accept it as it is.

One of my favorite movies deals with this point: the 1997 film Contact based on a screenplay by Carl Sagan. I won't ruin it for you, but I do recommend it.

I like your view of pain, I've never thought of it that way. Its something that exists but it cannot be measured or quantified and if the pain or anguish is mental then people have far more trouble relating to or understanding it. Or even believing in it.

Contact is a great movie which I have seen, although some time ago. I think I'll watch it again when I get the chance and maybe have a better understanding of it this time. Your post made me think of an experience I had a long time ago which I found profound and have queries about but I'll make a separate thread about that so this one doesn't get too side tracked !
 

Do you really have to chose? Why not staying with your view of the Universe and follow a religion that is for you? It will perhaps change the way you relate to the Universe, but that is another thing, isn't it?

A very basic exercise, which can be practiced by persons of any religion and none, is to meditate without any mental object, using breathing as a reminder of letting-go, but do not force mental content away - acknowledge that a mental content has arisen until it goes away without effort, and then return your focus on your breathing. Sit on a zafu, a meditation bench or a chair with a straight back and forward-leaning thin meditation cushion. The ideal position for the spine minimize any sway-back, and makes breathing easy. This exercise is a good preparation for or conclusion of many other practices. A short warning: Persons with unresolved bad memories might in some cases have to face this personal luggage, and that process is not always pleasant. Deep meditation is not always pleasant. Sometimes it takes effort to just sit, but that is just a phase, as everything else. Wait and see, and it will become better.

In Germanic religion, specifically the Norse version of it, the beginning of the Winter half of the year (end of October), the middle of the Winter half-year (end of January), the beginning of the Summer half of the year (end of April) and the middle of the Summer half-year (end of July) were acknowledged with ceremonial drinking and - in three of these cases - sacrifices. This was a concern for the entire society, and not primarily for the individual. The most domestic and private of these four celebrations was the Elves blót in late October.

In Irish religion (but keep in mind that the descriptions of these festivals were written half a millennium after the conversion to Christianity) four times of the year were celebrated: Early November (Samhain), early February (Imbolc), early May (Beltene, but I am not sure of the spelling of it) and early August (Lughnasadh).

To participate in a religious rite is not the same thing as sharing the same world-view as other participants. Pre-Christian Pagans had many different views on their own religion. Some ancient Romans were not very far from an Agnostic worldview, but anyhow insisted on the continuation of religious customs inherited from the ancestors, as a show of Romanitas ('romanhood'), a cultivation of politeness and respect for the ancestors themselves. The Egyptian priest Chaeremon of Alexandria viewed the Egyptian gods as personifications of natural phenomena.

It is not necessary for Pagans (old or modern) to behave as the polytheistic equivalents to Evangelical/Charismatic Christians. Most of the time, Pagan rites does not go emotional (they might sometimes, but that does also depend on personal disposition). Most of the time, deities does not practice micro-management, and I would anyhow treat with suspicion anyone who claims to have been commanded to perform something mundane (become a used car salesman!) or harm-inflicting (donate all your money to Preacher Bob/High Priestess Lady Pixie Wolfbroom/Guru Mahabrahmasanghaputra Smith!) on explicit order by (hereby insert the term applicable: Holy Spirit/Virgin Mary/The Goddess/Isis/O∂in/Loki/Master Hilarion/le Roi du monde/telepathic space dolphins/The Flying Spaghetti Monster).

Staying with my view of the Universe and following a Religion is another thing but not something totally out of the realms of possibility if the two are combined, changing the way I relate to the Universe.

Thanks for the tips on meditation, its something I will explore preferably in a natural setting as the street I live on can be quite busy and distracting !

Viewing Gods as personifications of natural phenomena is something else I have read briefly about and will certainly explore further.
 

Well, you've already said you believe in hauntings.  You may well also believe in some philosophical concepts like love, truth or justice.  So your worldview already accepts that some things exist outside the realm of the scientific method.

With that in mind, at the moment I wouldn't concentrate on trying to decide whether deities exist.  Merely try and work out whether you think they could exist. Which ever way you end up going, it may be enlightening and help examine your own views further.

If I may answer your questions with some of my own, what are you looking for from Paganism? What do you hope to get out of it?

As I touched on above, it's entirely possible to be a Pagan and an atheist at the same time. Sure, it will preclude some paths.  I came to the conclusion long ago that I can't have the same relationship with a deity that the polytheists on here can have and any practise involving genuine heartfelt worship is right out for me.

But it certainly doesn't preclude Paganism.

If you're mostly used to monotheistic religions, it's worth highlighting a major difference between them and Paganism. Paganism is not exclusionary.  While people on here follow a wide variety of paths and sometimes disagree with each other, I'm comfortable saying that the vast majority of us would agree that their path is not the right one for everyone.

 
I do believe in love, truth and justice so yes the more I think about it the more things I do find that I believe in which are not measurable and provable. Thinking about whether deities could exist instead of the black and white "do they exist" is an approach which I had not thought of but can work with !

Some things I am looking for from Paganism :

- A feeling of being closer to and more in tune with the natural world
- Knowing that I am practicing a religion with some relation to the traditions of my ancient ancestors
- Strength
- Direction
- Balance
- Completeness
- A sense of being part of a larger Universe
- A sense of being part of a unique community of people around the world who practice something I can relate to, something I feel far more drawn to than main stream religions.

I find the concept of being Pagan and Atheist at the same time interesting but I don't think its the right thing for me, at least at the moment. I would like a more Polytheist belief at some level which may help explain many things which cannot be quantified. At the same time I may not graduate exclusively to deep heartfelt worship but maybe something in between. Its really hard to say right now though.

Paganism being not exclusionary can only be a good thing !
   

I was brought up evangelical Christian, spent years as an agnostic, and am now discovering panentheism/pantheism (not sure at the moment.)

I had a hard time with polytheism, too. I have come to a point where I understand the gods in  an archetypal way. To me, they are entities that represent their proscribed characteristics in the greater universe and in ourselves. To my understanding, this is called soft polytheism, as I do not literally believe that there are anthropomorphic beings. There are people who do (much respect to you all!) but I do not. Perhaps this is a way for you to view the gods, as well?

Additionally, as has been mentioned in this thread, there is no need to be a polytheist or even have a specific religion to be a pagan. There are atheist pagans that practice witchcraft, pagans who venerate their ancestors, pagans who worship the universe as a whole, pagans who worship the earth itself...there are many ways to be pagan! To me, it's about discovering what  you truly believe, then finding a way to describe that.

Paganism as a term then is much broader than I originally believed. There's hope for me yet But seriously I may come to such a conclusion with my beliefs, a softer view of Polytheism, its still too early to say. Venerating my ancestors and worshiping the Earth itself and/or the Universe as a whole is appealing. I find the various Gods and Deities very interesting though and not an aspect I wish to exclude at this point.

Thank you everyone for your advice, its been great to have a variety of opinions and more information to help me on this journey ! Please add to this thread if my responses have generated more questions or advice though.

 

I'm certainly not expecting any direct undeniable communication for a long while from a Deity or God / Goddess, I think I would be quite taken aback if that occurred any time soon.

Also:  basically, there's no such thing.

A vision in a dream?  Could be a perfectly ordinary dream.  Mediums could be raving, or lying, or cold readers.  A voice in your head or a visual appearance could be a hallucination.  An odd string of coincidences could just be an odd string of coincidences.  There is absolutely no way of knowing.  (Which means I find worrying about it to be a total waste of time and energy, personally.  This thread has some of the tools I use for evaluating these sorts of things, and some related discussion.)

It would be nice to have that Eureka moment when something feels totally right and works but of course it may not be that simple. I will also keep in mind that it may be a long process and to not grasp hold of and follow the first thing that feels half right to the exclusion of trying other paths.

 
I think it was nearly ten years from when I first became pagan to that eureka-ish ritual experience.  Mind, much of that time I didn't have the sort of resources that this board provides, let alone other parts of the internet - almost everything out there was Wicca 101 books or derived therefrom, sometimes with sparkly animated gifs of rotating pentacles.

Also: I didn't stop there.  There is still very much a large part of my home, but it wasn't everything I needed or wanted, so I kept going.  More experimentation, more work. Some syncretisation; some borrowings.  Everyone is a work in progress.