Author Topic: The Nature of the Gods (Read 2343 times)

Nymree · « **on:** May 02, 2016, 04:29:09 am »

Good Morning All,

This is something that has been ticking away at the back of my mind for a short time, but was a little uncomfortable about asking. What I write here, I mean in the most respectful way possible, and mean no offence whatsoever. It simply reflects the natural path of curiosity and analysis, both internal and external, on the nature of the Divine.

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

I do not mean this in a narcissistic or disrespectful manner, but it was simply something I was wondering about. Many people have said, and it is a belief that I have adopted, that the gods are not meant to be perfect. They are the concentrated forms of the energy they represent in the world, often anthropomorphic to enhance our ability to work with, communicate with and understand Them. It is also my belief that all things in the world are a part of the divine; that everything, even people, have a part of that Divine energy in them and are, thus, a part of that divinity.
But I couldn't help but ask; if the gods aren't any more perfect in morality than any human, why are they revered as "great"? Why do we worship the gods?

I respect the gods and what they represent, but I just couldn't draw a conclusion for this one and was wondering what everyone else thinks about the topic.

Thanks to any and all replies made

Bright Blessings,
~Nymree

AineLlewellyn · « **Reply #1 on:** May 02, 2016, 07:19:10 am »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

I do not mean this in a narcissistic or disrespectful manner, but it was simply something I was wondering about. Many people have said, and it is a belief that I have adopted, that the gods are not meant to be perfect. They are the concentrated forms of the energy they represent in the world, often anthropomorphic to enhance our ability to work with, communicate with and understand Them. It is also my belief that all things in the world are a part of the divine; that everything, even people, have a part of that Divine energy in them and are, thus, a part of that divinity.
But I couldn't help but ask; if the gods aren't any more perfect in morality than any human, why are they revered as "great"? Why do we worship the gods?

Why you worship the gods you do and how you view their 'greatness' is going to depend on any traditions you practice or incorporate into your practice, as well as you ideas about gods in general.

What is a god?, for example, is a place to start.

Within my tradition, godhood and divinity is considered more of a job position. One can attain or lose divinity based on how they uphold it. So they essentially fill a different position than humans and other spirits, and that plays into my worship of them.

I also view the gods as 'bigger' than myself, in an energetic way. I may be comparable to a match. They're wildfires or volcanoes or the molten core of a planet. The gods give me the same impression as seeing the Grand Canyon does. However, in my tradition gods often get 'big' by collecting associations, epithets, epic deeds, etc. Their 'bigness' is part of fulfilling their duties as divine figures.

I think my gods are great because they accomplish great deeds and are able to learn from their mistakes while remaining flawed. I enjoy their presence and enjoy writing for them. I worship them because we have a cooperative relationship.

However.

Other religious traditions, not to mention magical, have different ideas about the gods. Including what a god is.

Faemon · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2016, 09:05:49 am »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

if the gods aren't any more perfect in morality than any human, why are they revered as "great"? Why do we worship the gods?

Moral perfection can be one great feature. But considering something like an ecosystem that's technically amoral, that can still be considered great because it's literally very big in size. I've also got great human friends whose perspectives and features (personality features, usually smaller than Moral Perfection) enrich my life. One likes to try out new things but doesn't like doing that alone, so I'd usually rather hole up doing the same thing the same way, but I do the other thing instead. And I hope I do the same thing greatly. Maybe making a conscious effort with that, is worship when it comes to relating to gods? To some people, with some gods, sometimes, maybe.

I'm sure worship can also come from, I don't know, Vending Machine metaphysics, or maybe a flawed morality that incidentally matches up so perfectly with a god that the god does technically become morally perfect, or fear, or enacting an established custom so as to keep up with the earthly Joneses, or aspiration to develop personally to the point of embodying a god which I don't consider necessarily bad even just slightly different than a relationship exactly maybe (and the attention can be worshipful.)

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2016, 11:19:33 am »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

I will answer like a Pagan theologian of the Roman Empire would have done. I am mainly influenced by Porphyry, Iamblichus and Sallustius.

Some of the deities are higher in the emanatory chain than we are.

Encosmic deities may be good (agathodaimones) or bad (kakodaimones), but please notice that this classification doesn't imply the existence of any essential or absolute evil. What we conventionally give the name evil, is just a lack of virtue/excellence (arete).

The Hypercosmic deities, and higher, are exclusively good.

The Intelligible deities are perfect.

Quote from: Nymree;190635

Why do we worship the gods?

Primarily: In order to keep the peace of the gods (pax deorum).

Secondarily: In order to reunite with The One. Iamblichus spent almost his entire On the Mysteries on that subject.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #4 on:** May 02, 2016, 11:37:47 am »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

At what?

Question is unanswerable without fully defined parameters.

Nymree · « **Reply #5 on:** May 02, 2016, 01:05:44 pm »

Quote from: Darkhawk;190643

At what?

Question is unanswerable without fully defined parameters.

Sorry, I should have specified. I meant "great" as in wonderful, or mighty; excellence, in a sense, but also in terms of hierarchical greatness and superiority.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #6 on:** May 02, 2016, 03:57:35 pm »

Quote from: Nymree;190648

Sorry, I should have specified. I meant "great" as in wonderful, or mighty; excellence, in a sense, but also in terms of hierarchical greatness and superiority.

My point there was that the tacit assumptions in the question were likely to lead one astray.

For example: "what makes the gods greater than us" presumes that the answer to the question "are the gods greater than us?" is "Yes". And that question, again, has unspecified parameters, the 'what is the greatness at which one points' one.

"God is self and self is God and God is a person like myself." - a teaching of Victor Anderson

If one cares about the Hermetic maxim "As above, so below", then the gods are the actors of the above, and we are the actors of the below. Same work, different modes.

Why do "we" worship the gods? I don't think "we" have an answer. I think there are thousands of answers, and they depends on the theologies, the systems, the individuals involved - and those individuals are both the humans involved and the gods involved.

Answers to some of the possible versions of the question that fall within the scope of my religions:

- the gods are the progenitors, the first ancestors, those from whom this has emerged
- the gods can provide guidance and wisdom for the shared tasks of creation of the cosmos
- the cycle of gift can only be maintained by ongoing giving; to lapse in giving honor and sustenance may mean a lapse in receiving honor and sustenance
- is there some reason I should have less care for a divine companion than a meat-based one?
- to gain power and better effect goals
- to better appreciate the alien in the cosmos that is also within

I could probably come up with more, y'know? But that's all... buying into a question that I don't know I even agree with.

Eastling · « **Reply #7 on:** May 02, 2016, 08:02:24 pm »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

...

But I couldn't help but ask; if the gods aren't any more perfect in morality than any human, why are they revered as "great"? Why do we worship the gods?

You're operating under some unproven assumptions here.

One, that the gods are necessarily greater than us, and two, that this superiority is the reason we worship them.

Now, within those parameters, there's some interesting discussion to be had. I'd be inclined to take a similar position to FraterBenedict upthread. The gods are closer in existence to Ein Sof/the heart of everything/the Big Bang/ultimate Oneness/Amber/etc.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #8 on:** May 02, 2016, 08:07:52 pm »

Quote from: Eastling;190655

One, that the gods are necessarily greater than us, and two, that this superiority is the reason we worship them.

Oooh, that second one is a huge one and one that I managed to miss articulating. Thank you.

Castus · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2016, 12:14:46 am »

Quote from: Darkhawk;190643

At what?

Question is unanswerable without fully defined parameters.

Quoting this only because it's the least unwieldy and I'm on a phone.

I'd say that man, in the model of Joseph Soloveitchik's conception of homo religiosus, is naturally predisposed to give reverence to the Creator.

Mewtini · « **Reply #10 on:** May 03, 2016, 12:59:17 am »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

To be honest, the way I see it, gods are basically what happens when a consciousness exists on a level that isn't physical. Kind of like an intermediary between ethereal thoughts and something tangible. Our mind is a powerful thing, and it is our belief and willpower that gives the gods power. The reason they are great is because they are more than "beings", they also embody ideas, powers, celestial functions, and other such things.

Lumpino · « **Reply #11 on:** May 03, 2016, 01:39:04 am »

Quote from: Nymree;190635

Good Morning All,

This is something that has been ticking away at the back of my mind for a short time, but was a little uncomfortable about asking. What I write here, I mean in the most respectful way possible, and mean no offence whatsoever. It simply reflects the natural path of curiosity and analysis, both internal and external, on the nature of the Divine.

What I have to ask is: What makes the Gods great? And on the same path, what makes Them greater than us?

I do not mean this in a narcissistic or disrespectful manner, but it was simply something I was wondering about. Many people have said, and it is a belief that I have adopted, that the gods are not meant to be perfect. They are the concentrated forms of the energy they represent in the world, often anthropomorphic to enhance our ability to work with, communicate with and understand Them. It is also my belief that all things in the world are a part of the divine; that everything, even people, have a part of that Divine energy in them and are, thus, a part of that divinity.
But I couldn't help but ask; if the gods aren't any more perfect in morality than any human, why are they revered as "great"? Why do we worship the gods?

I respect the gods and what they represent, but I just couldn't draw a conclusion for this one and was wondering what everyone else thinks about the topic.

Thanks to any and all replies made

Bright Blessings,
~Nymree

In eastern teachings or ancient mysteries is one very interesting opinion.
That people they through meditation or some other spiritual practices obtain a spiritual powers or achieve revelation of the gods could in nexts life be born among them. So there is maybe something like evolution. And gods could be higher level of evolution. See for example hindu philosophy Samkhya (samkhya) or something about ancient mysteries, translantion ancient papyri, or by Somadeva Ocean of stories, Richard Willhelm, The secret of the golden flower and many others translantions ancient or eastern texts.

Nymree · « **Reply #12 on:** May 03, 2016, 02:01:43 am »

Quote from: Eastling;190655

You're operating under some unproven assumptions here.

One, that the gods are necessarily greater than us, and two, that this superiority is the reason we worship them

Thanks everyone for your contributions and help. I didn't even consider much that has been said here (I'm learning, but closed-mindedness is something I hope to defeat with the accumilation of knowledge) , so I'm really grateful for the insight and ideas you have all provided. Thanks again everyone, and apologies for my utter ignorance. Again, learning.

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