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Author Topic: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?  (Read 5584 times)

Sol Invictus

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Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« on: May 02, 2016, 03:00:04 am »
Hey guys,

so as I am a practicing Asatruar, I have somewhat wondered if it possible to form a personal bond with a specific God or Goddess while still worshipping all the Aesir and Vanir, as well as the Disir and ancestors.

But for some reason, I have felt a connection, a personal connection, to Freyja. As she is the goddess of passion, fertility, sexuality, but as well as passionate art, shamanic rites of Seidhr, amongst other creative things. I'll admit I don't know much of Freyr. And I love all the Gods equally, but is it wrong or blasphemous even, to pray and honor a specific deity moreso than the other Gods? As stated, I feel some sort of connection to Freyja with a feeling of spontaneous creativity and fire of kenaz, but also of motherly ways. I can describe the feeling as the desire for warm arms to embrace you and calm you down, to hug you at tell you that you are at peace and comfortable. Also, must be stated, that I am a man. So honoring a Goddess? Not a male God? Is that wrong?

Sorry for the questions, but I would really like some help.

Thank you.

Faemon

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 09:25:10 am »
Quote from: Sol Invictus;190634
I love all the Gods equally, but is it wrong or blasphemous even, to pray and honor a specific deity moreso than the other Gods?

 I believe that is called Henotheism? And I gather that it's annoying...because 98.9% of pagan seekers do it (citation needed). Why would it be wrong or anathema, though? :confused: You think Heimdall's complaining? Or human people you love and respect are complaining? What's the reasoning behind this?
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Jainarayan

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 10:50:17 am »
Quote from: Sol Invictus;190634
... is it wrong or blasphemous even, to pray and honor a specific deity moreso than the other Gods? ...

 
There is a term, fulltrui (for a god) or fulltrua (for a goddess) roughly meaning "fully trusted". It means the god/dess is the one you are closest to and have the most trust and faith in. There is a similar concept in Hinduism called ishta-devata, "cherished deity".

You may have guessed that Thór is my fulltrui ;) but I honor all the gods at some time or another. I've recently started making small votive offerings to each god/dess on their day of the week: Monday to Máni, the moon; Tuesday to Týr; Wednesday to Óðinn; Thursday to Thór; Friday to Frigga and Freyja; Saturday I usually leave alone, or to all the gods; Sunday to Sunna, the sun. On other occasions I'll make an offering to a specific god/dess. Every morning, however, my prayers especially hammer-donning prayers are to Thór.

I wouldn't call it henotheism because strictly speaking henotheism is "...the belief in and worship of a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities.[1][2]" Henotheism, Wiki article (with references). The bold is mine, to point out that I take this simply as belief in, not worship of. For example, I believe the Greek, Egyptian, Hindu, Slavic, Celtic (and the list goes on) gods exist, but I don't worship them. So, I'm not a henotheist, but a full blown hard polytheist.

Tl;dr version: Not a problem. It's actually quite common. The gods are not jealous. ;)

Darkhawk

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 11:39:45 am »
Quote from: Sol Invictus;190634
is it wrong or blasphemous even, to pray and honor a specific deity moreso than the other Gods?

If it is, then basically every ancient person whose religious activities are on record is wrong or blasphemous, which rather suggests that it isn't.

(ETA: most of my knowledge is not heathen in this regard, but I believe it holds there as well from what I do know.)

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So honoring a Goddess? Not a male God? Is that wrong?

Why would it be?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 11:41:01 am by Darkhawk »
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Grimnir Thrymsson

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 06:27:50 pm »
Quote from: Sol Invictus;190634
Hey guys,

so as I am a practicing Asatruar, I have somewhat wondered if it possible to form a personal bond with a specific God or Goddess while still worshipping all the Aesir and Vanir, as well as the Disir and ancestors.

But for some reason, I have felt a connection, a personal connection, to Freyja. As she is the goddess of passion, fertility, sexuality, but as well as passionate art, shamanic rites of Seidhr, amongst other creative things. I'll admit I don't know much of Freyr. And I love all the Gods equally, but is it wrong or blasphemous even, to pray and honor a specific deity moreso than the other Gods? As stated, I feel some sort of connection to Freyja with a feeling of spontaneous creativity and fire of kenaz, but also of motherly ways. I can describe the feeling as the desire for warm arms to embrace you and calm you down, to hug you at tell you that you are at peace and comfortable. Also, must be stated, that I am a man. So honoring a Goddess? Not a male God? Is that wrong?

Sorry for the questions, but I would really like some help.

Thank you.

 
It is perfectly acceptable to have one of the Gods/Goddesses as a "patron" and still honor the rest of them in general. Personally, I honor and all of the Aesir but hold a closer connection to Thor specifically.

Mewtini

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2016, 11:20:54 pm »
Quote from: Grimnir Thrymsson;190686
It is perfectly acceptable to have one of the Gods/Goddesses as a "patron" and still honor the rest of them in general. Personally, I honor and all of the Aesir but hold a closer connection to Thor specifically.

 
To sum it up, this.  Although I follow the Slavic pantheon, I use a lot of Asatru rituals, and I always make sure to keep all the gods in my heart.  That being said, I most identify with Veles and Satan, being my patron gods.  It's kinda like having a best friend out of a friend group, if you may pardon my menial interpretation of something as magnificent as a relationship with the gods.

bobthesane

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 07:33:15 pm »
Quote from: Sol Invictus;190634
Hey guys,

so as I am a practicing Asatruar, I have somewhat wondered if it possible to form a personal bond with a specific God or Goddess while still worshipping all the Aesir and Vanir, as well as the Disir and ancestors.

But for some reason, I have felt a connection, a personal connection, to Freyja. As she is the goddess of passion, fertility, sexuality, but as well as passionate art, shamanic rites of Seidhr, amongst other creative things. I'll admit I don't know much of Freyr. And I love all the Gods equally, but is it wrong or blasphemous even, to pray and honor a specific deity moreso than the other Gods? As stated, I feel some sort of connection to Freyja with a feeling of spontaneous creativity and fire of kenaz, but also of motherly ways. I can describe the feeling as the desire for warm arms to embrace you and calm you down, to hug you at tell you that you are at peace and comfortable. Also, must be stated, that I am a man. So honoring a Goddess? Not a male God? Is that wrong?

Sorry for the questions, but I would really like some help.

Thank you.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a favored deity. This is backed up in lore (for example, Hrafnkel Freysgothi).

What is NOT backed up, nor would it be even remotely recognizable to an arch-heathen, is the belief that this regard is in any way reciprocal. Generally speaking, gods did not take any notice of mortals. When they did, it invariably ended very, very badly for the mortal in question.

The only mortals that attract the notice of the divine are mortals with the power to shape the world: great leaders, presidents, generals, and the like. Gods don't take notice of persons, they notice peoples. Nations, tribes, armies.

It is very, very much a holdover from the abrahamic faiths that people think the gods care for them or even notice them ("Jesus loves me, this I know"...), and even if a person was not raised Christian the fact of the matter is that we live in a heavily Judeo-Christian society. This shapes our beliefs and worldview on a very fundamental and deeply rooted level.

Unfortunately, this all too often leads to people putting all their focus on gods and not so much on the beings that actually DO have an impact on their lives. Their ancestors, landwights, housewights, alfar, and other Unseen. And it very often leads to mistaken belief in things like the Valhalla myth, again to the exclusion of what's actually important: family, your inner-yard, and joining your ancestors when you die.

All of this may be delved into further by reading "Culture of the Teutons" by Gronbech, "The Road to Hel" by HR Ellis-Davidson, and "The Tradition of Household Spirits" by Lecouteux to name a few.

Jainarayan

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 10:34:04 am »
Quote from: bobthesane;190732
What is NOT backed up, nor would it be even remotely recognizable to an arch-heathen, is the belief that this regard is in any way reciprocal. Generally speaking, gods did not take any notice of mortals.

 
How do we know this? I constantly see comments that the gods don't pay attention to individuals, and that individuals didn't pray to the gods. We know that great heroes and notable persons were favored by the gods, and had close relationships with the gods. That's all in the sagas, but how do we know that the average person and family didn't interact with the gods? The "it ends badly for mortals" may be what we see at times; do we see when things don't end badly?

To the best of my knowledge we don't have writings from the time detailing day-to-day Norse life, or have excavated every Norse homestead. Maybe day to day activities or beliefs were not noteworthy enough to write down, or they were done without making a big deal of it. Not to mention that what we do have written is fragmented and from 200+ years after the conversion. Do we know that families didn't have small shrines to their family or personal god(s)? To use a cliché "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

The claim that it's Christian baggage is a meme that gets propagated only because Christianity is predominate in the western world. In one of the largest polytheistic religions, Hinduism, the idea of a personal god/dess, an ishta-devata, a tutelary deity who actively participates in the life of the devotee is a basic tenet. Buddhism, especially Tibetan (Vajrayāna) has the same concept of a yidam, a deity with whom a mortal interacts closely. I can't believe that Heathenry, a sister Indo-European religion would be any different.

Quote
Gods don't take notice of persons, they notice peoples. Nations, tribes, armies.


Then in this day and age, the gods notice no one because none of those entities notice the gods. Effectively then, the gods are dead and useless. If you don't have a Heathen tribe or clan to worship the gods with, and are a lone believer, then there is no point in being Heathen, is there? :confused:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand the thinking.

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 04:36:43 pm »
Quote from: Thorbjorn;190769
How do we know this? I constantly see comments that the gods don't pay attention to individuals, and that individuals didn't pray to the gods. We know that great heroes and notable persons were favored by the gods, and had close relationships with the gods. That's all in the sagas, but how do we know that the average person and family didn't interact with the gods? The "it ends badly for mortals" may be what we see at times; do we see when things don't end badly?

We know this because we have tons and tons and TONS of material, that displays otherwise. Sagas, short stories, poems, linguistic and anthropological and archeological studies, place-names, tools, weapons, just a mountain of evidence. And if you will reread what I said above, I quite specifically said that great heroes and notable persons were noticed by the gods, and it ends in death (or incredibly bad dire circumstances) in almost every instance.

Quote from: Thorbjorn;190769
To the best of my knowledge we don't have writings from the time detailing day-to-day Norse life, or have excavated every Norse homestead. Maybe day to day activities or beliefs were not noteworthy enough to write down, or they were done without making a big deal of it. Not to mention that what we do have written is fragmented and from 200+ years after the conversion. Do we know that families didn't have small shrines to their family or personal god(s)? To use a cliché "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Well, when someone one day digs up a homestead of a single farmer with all the trappings of a god-cult center, then we'll talk. However, until then, I will trust in actual scholarly source materials. Gronbech, HRED, etc. I get awfully tired of people claiming we have no evidence when we have just a ton of it. And all of it points to the gods being approached by the people on high holy tides, for sacrifices. This was a Big Deal. Even Hrafnkel Freysgothi was *district* Godhi. He spoke for the people  of his district. Run of the mill people had their local gods, wights, grave-howes and the like where they would commune with the local spirits and ancestors. Temples? Those required monumental amounts of upkeep and time. Things a farmer in Norway would not have an abundance of, needing to see to surviving. Thus, those got left to the priests and the people of the tribe/district/kingdom/political unit would all see to it's upkeep and maintenance.

Quote from: Thorbjorn;190769
The claim that it's Christian baggage is a meme that gets propagated only because Christianity is predominate in the western world. In one of the largest polytheistic religions, Hinduism, the idea of a personal god/dess, an ishta-devata, a tutelary deity who actively participates in the life of the devotee is a basic tenet. Buddhism, especially Tibetan (Vajrayāna) has the same concept of a yidam, a deity with whom a mortal interacts closely. I can't believe that Heathenry, a sister Indo-European religion would be any different.

No, it's Christian baggage because it's Christian baggage. Seriously, you are trying to conflate Hinduism with Germanic Heathenry, when the parent culture that spawned their descendents split thousands of years ago? Neither I, nor any of the scholars I have read, share your belief. I'll take their learned word over yours.


Quote from: Thorbjorn;190769
Then in this day and age, the gods notice no one because none of those entities notice the gods. Effectively then, the gods are dead and useless. If you don't have a Heathen tribe or clan to worship the gods with, and are a lone believer, then there is no point in being Heathen, is there? :confused:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't understand the thinking.

Not really sure where you come to this conclusion. It's.... quite a leap, and does not follow logically. Why would the gods become dead and ashes because people may or may not notice them? Do you think they are so feeble that they somehow require us for their existence?

Dude. They are GODS. My tribe sacrifices to them because they are worthy of our sacrifice. They govern the world, and at high holy tides we gather together to renew the gift-cycle with them and thank them for their wise governance. We may beseech them for good weather, or a strong harvest as well. But whether or not we do these things, the gods will still be there, still doing what they do. If you think somehow humans are anywhere near their level... your ego is truly breathtaking, but I think you will be bitterly disappointed in the end.
 

Jainarayan

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 05:38:04 pm »
Quote from: bobthesane;190783
We know this because we have tons and tons and TONS of material, that displays otherwise. Sagas, short stories, poems, linguistic and anthropological and archeological studies, place-names, tools, weapons, just a mountain of evidence. And if you will reread what I said above, I quite specifically said that great heroes and notable persons were noticed by the gods, and it ends in death (or incredibly bad dire circumstances) in almost every instance.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Villagers were not tweeting to each other or the world about their religious practices. We don't know what they didn't do. There's simply no way to tell if individual people prayed and sacrificed to the gods or not. The Norse were no different than any other ancient people.

Quote
Well, when someone one day digs up a homestead of a single farmer with all the trappings of a god-cult center, then we'll talk. However, until then, I will trust in actual scholarly source materials. Gronbech, HRED, etc. I get awfully tired of people claiming we have no evidence when we have just a ton of it. And all of it points to the gods being approached by the people on high holy tides, for sacrifices.


We have evidence of what was done. I never said there was no evidence of practices. I say there's no reason or evidence to believe that people didn't individually work with the gods. Especially when so many other cultures did and still do.

Quote
This was a Big Deal. Even Hrafnkel Freysgothi was *district* Godhi. He spoke for the people  of his district. Run of the mill people had their local gods, wights, grave-howes and the like where they would commune with the local spirits and ancestors. Temples? Those required monumental amounts of upkeep and time. Things a farmer in Norway would not have an abundance of, needing to see to surviving. Thus, those got left to the priests and the people of the tribe/district/kingdom/political unit would all see to it's upkeep and maintenance.


That a Norwegian farmer could not build a temple does not preclude him or her from performing a sacrifice to the gods with one of their chickens or goats.

Quote
Not really sure where you come to this conclusion. It's.... quite a leap, and does not follow logically. Why would the gods become dead and ashes because people may or may not notice them? Do you think they are so feeble that they somehow require us for their existence?


Dead as in why should anyone enter into a one-sided relationship with deities that supposedly do not interact with us? Why would anyone do that when there are probably literally thousands of deities in hundreds of pantheons who are more than happy to interact with humans? Who calls people to worship the gods they do? Maybe it is the gods speaking!

Why the Norse gods are any different is beyond me; but I don't think they are. The idea of this remoteness of the gods has all the earmarks of knee-jerk reactions and overcompensation in trying to distance oneself from Christianity. I've never encountered any other polytheistic religion in which the gods are purported to be so remote.

Quote
If you think somehow humans are anywhere near their level... your ego is truly breathtaking, but I think you will be bitterly disappointed in the end.


You're bringing something into the conversation that has nothing to do with anything. We're not talking about my ego, and I think that not only veered off course but went more than a little over the line.

bobthesane

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 08:30:33 pm »
Quote from: Thorbjorn;190788
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Villagers were not tweeting to each other or the world about their religious practices. We don't know what they didn't do. There's simply no way to tell if individual people prayed and sacrificed to the gods or not. The Norse were no different than any other ancient people.

Okay, you keep saying that. But when there IS evidence that the people did not engage in personal relationships with gods (except in rare circumstances), but there is no evidence that they did... I'm going with the preponderance of evidence here. For further readings on this subject which may help you understand my viewpoint, I would direct you to "Germanization of Early Christianity" by Russel, as well as (once again) Gronbech's "Culture of the Teutons" vols. 1 and 2.


Quote from: Thorbjorn;190788
We have evidence of what was done. I never said there was no evidence of practices. I say there's no reason or evidence to believe that people didn't individually work with the gods. Especially when so many other cultures did and still do.

Those that do tended to be southern European, mostly with heavy Greek and/or LAtin influences. Or Hinduism, or one of the many monotheistic cults that arose in the middle east. If you read on the heathen germanic tribes you will see that *culturally* having close, interested gods doesn't really fit with the world view. AGain, see suggested readings for more detail.

Quote from: Thorbjorn;190788
That a Norwegian farmer could not build a temple does not preclude him or her from performing a sacrifice to the gods with one of their chickens or goats.

And he most certainly would have done so. At high holy tides. With the rest of his tribe. Because they were not so rich in livestock that they would butcher them willy-nillly. That's why it was a *sacrifice*. Sacrifices have to mean something. They must carry significance. They almost have to, dare I say it, hurt. That's why it's a sacrifice and not just an offering.

Quote from: Thorbjorn;190788
Dead as in why should anyone enter into a one-sided relationship with deities that supposedly do not interact with us? Why would anyone do that when there are probably literally thousands of deities in hundreds of pantheons who are more than happy to interact with humans? Who calls people to worship the gods they do? Maybe it is the gods speaking!

I never said they dont interact with humanity. They most certainly do. Just not with YOU, or ME, or most other *individuals* on a *personal level*. They interact with nations. They interact with the world. I offer and sacrifice to the gods because I can see and feel their influence every day. When the rains come to the fields and help the crops grow. When the sun melts the ice onwards towards spring. You know. Big (And yet small) stuff. These things tell me the gods are alive and well and seeing to their affairs. I'm just a small tribesman who thanks them for their efforts on our behalf. But I don't seek an audience with them any more than I would run up to Buckingham Palace and demand an audience with the Queen, or the White House and demand to shoot hoops with Obama.

Quote from: Thorbjorn;190788
Why the Norse gods are any different is beyond me; but I don't think they are. The idea of this remoteness of the gods has all the earmarks of knee-jerk reactions and overcompensation in trying to distance oneself from Christianity. I've never encountered any other polytheistic religion in which the gods are purported to be so remote.

The idea of having close gods is, again, very much not culturally compatible with an arch-heathen worldview. What can I say, when you read the scholarly works on the subject they are in agreement, and not with you. I'm going with what the learned scholars say on the subject, and not someone's feelings.

Quote from: Thorbjorn;190788
You're bringing something into the conversation that has nothing to do with anything. We're not talking about my ego, and I think that not only veered off course but went more than a little over the line.

Apologies if that was not your intent, but it truly read to me like you were declaring that they need us to survive. Thus, putting humans on a nearly godlike pedestal. Hence, declaration of ego. Not an insult, more a "holy crap dude do you truly think that you are on a level with them???" declaration of incredulity.

Jainarayan

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2016, 09:49:25 am »
Quote from: bobthesane;190792
The idea of having close gods is, again, very much not culturally compatible with an arch-heathen worldview. What can I say, when you read the scholarly works on the subject they are in agreement, and not with you. I'm going with what the learned scholars say on the subject, and not someone's feelings.


As much as it pains me to admit this, being half Sicilian (the other half is southern Italian... pretty much no difference :p) we are stereotypically stubborn in the extreme. After thinking on this, I have come to the conclusion you are right.  :o

I'll tell you why. My posts are peppered with references to Hinduism, like buckshot. The reason is that, not only was I a card-carrying, temple-attending, puja-performing, dhoti-wearing Hindu for at least 4 years, since I was a teenager I was drawn to and felt close to the Hindu gods. I guess one could say I was alway Hindu at heart. I took a hiatus from it about a year and a half ago for reasons I really not need go into, but I never fully gave the gods their walking papers. I never fully let go of Vedanta philosophies either (I lean towards Vishishtadvaita, a qualified duality).
 
One of the reasons, if not the reason I can't get my head wrapped around ancestor worship is because I still hold onto the belief of reincarnation; how can I venerate someone who may now be living as Matuskha Galina, the wife of a Russian Orthodox priest? I can honor the memory of my parents and grandparents, but as far as them watching over me? Mmmm... itsa no work not so much for me.

There is much veneration for the land, though, since the Earth itself is an incarnation of Mahālakshmī, wife/consort of Lord Vishnu. We call the Earth 'Bhumidevi' and say prayers to her for forgiveness of the disrespectful things we do to her. But she is compassionate, until she gets really pissed and blows up a volcano. :(

Anyway, to the real point... I'm getting the feeling that the Æsir and Vanir really are not bothered by this. That goes to the beliefs that they don't really pay attention to individuals. I currently still have a tiny shrine to Thor and am still wearing my hammer pendant. My UPG says he's OK with this, and so is Krishna: "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such devotees I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a devotee performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Bhagavad Gītā 7.21-22

So, while I won't say my attempted relationship with the Æsir and Vanir ended "badly", it didn't go quite as I expected. Given that, I probably won't be around much, but will peek in from time to time. :)

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 10:35:08 am »
Quote from: Thorbjorn;190901


Anyway, to the real point... I'm getting the feeling that the Æsir and Vanir really are not bothered by this. That goes to the beliefs that they don't really pay attention to individuals. I currently still have a tiny shrine to Thor and am still wearing my hammer pendant. My UPG says he's OK with this, and so is Krishna: "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such devotees I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a devotee performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Bhagavad Gītā 7.21-22

So, while I won't say my attempted relationship with the Æsir and Vanir ended "badly", it didn't go quite as I expected. Given that, I probably won't be around much, but will peek in from time to time. :)

 
I am quite sure neither Thor, nor most other deities, care one whit for how us talking monkeys choose to adorn ourselves :)

As for changing religious views, well, not like THAT never happens lol

How many of our ancestors switched over to the new god from the south when his missionaries arrived? It's human nature to continue questing, questioning, and learning. If you've moved on to a new faith that suits you better, well, I wish you well in your endeavors sir!

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 04:32:49 pm »
Quote from: bobthesane;190792
I never said they dont interact with humanity. They most certainly do. Just not with YOU, or ME, or most other *individuals* on a *personal level*. They interact with nations. They interact with the world. I offer and sacrifice to the gods because I can see and feel their influence every day. When the rains come to the fields and help the crops grow. When the sun melts the ice onwards towards spring. You know. Big (And yet small) stuff. These things tell me the gods are alive and well and seeing to their affairs. I'm just a small tribesman who thanks them for their efforts on our behalf.

 
This is an interesting point for me because ever since I started to understand the “Gods don’t interact with individuals idea”, I was always sort of bugged by a nagging suspicion that…well, it seems to me there is a good chance they wouldn’t bother to interact with the rather tiny-sized modern Heathen communities. Even a massive modern Heathen event will likely only have dozens of participants. Most modern blots will often only have a small number of people. Our communities are certainly not deciding the fate of nations. If Gods don’t interact with individuals, then why would they interact with a kindred of, say, 14 people?

And if you accept the above proposition, it leads to the idea of what exactly our rituals are for. You mention the fact that you can feel the Gods influence in the coming of the rain and the growing of the crops, but since these events happen for people who are not Heathens, or people that have no religion at all, it certainly seems to me that such rituals are not really necessary to gain the benefits that the Gods give through their influence in the world. They seem to provide benefits whether we acknowledge them or not.

Please don’t take this an argument that you must somehow accept personal interactions with deity – I am actually interested in the opposite idea. Humans have conducted rituals and prayed to deities for as long as we’ve been around, but I am not aware of any real demonstrable way of showing that such actions really do produce benefits.

I am personally beginning to lean towards the idea that the primary benefit of religious ritual is for the the people who engage in it. A blot by modern Heathens may not necessarily have any effect on whether the rains come or the snow melts, but they often can have a real impact on creating stronger bonds within a community. Perhaps rituals do not so much get the attention of the Gods as they serve as a way to make awareness of the Gods common within a community and we will then derive the benefits from the increased communal harmony from such ritual.
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bobthesane

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Re: Having a relationship with a certain God or Goddess?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 05:14:11 pm »
Quote from: Megatherium;190994


I am personally beginning to lean towards the idea that the primary benefit of religious ritual is for the the people who engage in it. A blot by modern Heathens may not necessarily have any effect on whether the rains come or the snow melts, but they often can have a real impact on creating stronger bonds within a community. Perhaps rituals do not so much get the attention of the Gods as they serve as a way to make awareness of the Gods common within a community and we will then derive the benefits from the increased communal harmony from such ritual.

I would be in *full and strong agreement* with what you just said. I Cannot stress it enough. You just laid out in a nicely intelligent manner everything I would say, only better.

No, the gods don't notice small heathen communities as such. They might take notice of a particularly powerful and worthy sacrifice, perhaps (and no, I've no idea what that might be). Rites and rituals are not for the benefit of the gods, certainly. They will do what they will do regardless. And why would they care only for heathens? They care for the world, in all it's stripes and spots.

Just as I tell people your tribe isn't just the heathens around you. Your first (and oftentimes truest) tribe is your family, and for the vast majority of us in the USA those people are Christian. Do you cease being your parents' child when you put on the heathen worldview? Of course not! Likewise, would the gods interfere with the works of the world they've labored so long and hard to maintain, simply because a bunch of talking monkeys decide to follow one sect or another of a monotheistic religion from another part of the world?

I tend to think not.

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