Author Topic: What path of paganism should I follow? (Read 4816 times)

M. Schlottman · « **on:** April 25, 2016, 10:00:32 pm »

Background-
I am 17 and I live in Texas, but I have had strong love for history. I come from an Anglican family, but I never felt religious so I have considered myself an atheist for year. However, I have found this to be lacking for my belief. So I have taken tougher courses in history to excel my knowledge in that area. I have also read many philosophical, political, and economic essays to find what I believe. I have had a strong resonance with Machiavelli (The Prince), Hobbes (The Leviathan), Freud (Civilization and Its Discontents, Future of an Illusion), and most importantly Nietzsche (Thus Spake Zarathustra). I have found that I have an intense will for the principles of unity, nationalism, romanticism, and psychological eudemonia.

Present-
Lately I have looked further into Paganism to fill this more romantic nationalist part of me. I enjoy this feeling of expressiveness and a greater bond to history and my ancestry. I can see the events of history unfold in front of me and when I hear songs such as the Foggy Dew, I feel great passion (this is pan-European for me as, although I love Irish culture, I am myself of German ancestry). I only believe man can create higher powers than the individual and help overcome himself through society(much like Hegel). I cannot find myself believing in any form of deity be it mono, poly, or pantheistic, but I do recognize deities as symbols of collected wisdom. I embrace science, psychology, and technology, although I believe that we should not think ourselves better than older times. Every era has its values.

So the closest I have found in my own research is Reconstructionism, however I am unsure if this is what I should pursue. What I want to get out of paganism is a greater connection to my German ancestors by practicing and celebrating in the same way they did while also developing my own personal virtues (honor, respect, self-surpassing). This is very much a continuation of my love of Nietzsche and history, if that helps. I do however recognize that there is an Indo-European connection and I am also interested in Hinduism and Buddhism (though I am afraid of losing the life affirmation aspect to certain meditative techniques to reduce pain/suffering which I believe is necessary to learn and build character). But I want to focus on European (still love Ireland) and more specifically my German ancestry.

Question-
I am happy to read books and essays on this topic if I find a suitable path. What would be best for me to research and practice?

Castus · « **Reply #1 on:** April 26, 2016, 12:27:59 am »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190378

Background-
I am 17 and I live in Texas, but I have had strong love for history. I come from an Anglican family, but I never felt religious so I have considered myself an atheist for year. However, I have found this to be lacking for my belief. So I have taken tougher courses in history to excel my knowledge in that area. I have also read many philosophical, political, and economic essays to find what I believe. I have had a strong resonance with Machiavelli (The Prince), Hobbes (The Leviathan), Freud (Civilization and Its Discontents, Future of an Illusion), and most importantly Nietzsche (Thus Spake Zarathustra). I have found that I have an intense will for the principles of unity, nationalism, romanticism, and psychological eudemonia.

Present-
Lately I have looked further into Paganism to fill this more romantic nationalist part of me. I enjoy this feeling of expressiveness and a greater bond to history and my ancestry. I can see the events of history unfold in front of me and when I hear songs such as the Foggy Dew, I feel great passion (this is pan-European for me as, although I love Irish culture, I am myself of German ancestry). I only believe man can create higher powers than the individual and help overcome himself through society(much like Hegel). I cannot find myself believing in any form of deity be it mono, poly, or pantheistic, but I do recognize deities as symbols of collected wisdom. I embrace science, psychology, and technology, although I believe that we should not think ourselves better than older times. Every era has its values.

So the closest I have found in my own research is Reconstructionism, however I am unsure if this is what I should pursue. What I want to get out of paganism is a greater connection to my German ancestors by practicing and celebrating in the same way they did while also developing my own personal virtues (honor, respect, self-surpassing). This is very much a continuation of my love of Nietzsche and history, if that helps. I do however recognize that there is an Indo-European connection and I am also interested in Hinduism and Buddhism (though I am afraid of losing the life affirmation aspect to certain meditative techniques to reduce pain/suffering which I believe is necessary to learn and build character). But I want to focus on European (still love Ireland) and more specifically my German ancestry.

Question-
I am happy to read books and essays on this topic if I find a suitable path. What would be best for me to research and practice?

I think you best mosey over to the good folks at IronMarch...

Mewtini · « **Reply #2 on:** April 26, 2016, 01:06:02 am »

Quote from: Castus;190383

I think you best mosey over to the good folks at IronMarch...

Please, the average age of people at IronMarch is 13, I think he's a tad too old for that sort of thing.

As for you, OP, while it's always nice to be thinking about and honoring one's ancestry, there is a certain point where this kind of thing becomes an excuse for nationalistic drivel. Mind you, if you think the gods give a rat's ass about your genealogy or what haplotype you've got, you'd be sorely mistaken. Deities are far above those kinds of things. Furthermore, it seems you're dangerously close into valuing spooks over the material conditions. It's all well and good to have a moral code and all that, but it seems much of your philosophy is needlessly authoritarian, which doesn't really make for good paganism most of the time.

At least you're into Hegel, so that's a good start. But remember that you are more than just a product of ancestry. And even so, ancestries are complicated things, so with all probability your tree has major forks which ended up in entirely different regions of Europe, possibly even outside of it.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #3 on:** April 26, 2016, 11:53:52 am »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190378

So the closest I have found in my own research is Reconstructionism, however I am unsure if this is what I should pursue.

Keep in mind that reconstruction is a methodology, not a religion. There are people who appear to make it their religion; this is much like equating perspective sightline sketches with art.

Quote

What I want to get out of paganism is a greater connection to my German ancestors by practicing and celebrating in the same way they did while also developing my own personal virtues (honor, respect, self-surpassing).

Unfortunately, "practicing and celebrating in the same way [the ancestors] did" is not possible. I blogged about this recently.
https://peacefulawakenings.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/reconstruction-is-a-lie/

The world is different now; it doesn't do any good to have the illusion that stuff that's What They Did - even if we could know What They Did, which is hard for societies that are well-documented internally and contemporaneously, which Germanic tribes are not - is going to be functional in the present day.

Which is not to say that heathen reconstruction would not be satisfying to you, but you should approach it without expecting it to be something it is not. It is a modern creation; based on a true story is not the same thing as the story.

Castus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 26, 2016, 01:59:25 pm »

Quote from: Mewtini;190386

Please, the average age of people at IronMarch is 13, I think he's a tad too old for that sort of thing.

Oh hardly.

OP, I think you're drifting into the common nationalistic trap of adopting a religion because of it's nationalistic value rather than out of any true belief. That's a very unsavoury road, and I would think long and hard, if I were you, about your true motivations for looking into Heathenry or Reconstructionism as a methodology.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #5 on:** April 26, 2016, 06:38:05 pm »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190378

I have found that I have an intense will for the principles of unity, nationalism, romanticism, and psychological eudemonia.

(...)

Present-
Lately I have looked further into Paganism to fill this more romantic nationalist part of me. I enjoy this feeling of expressiveness and a greater bond to history and my ancestry. (...) What I want to get out of paganism is a greater connection to my German ancestors by practicing and celebrating in the same way they did while also developing my own personal virtues (honor, respect, self-surpassing). This is very much a continuation of my love of Nietzsche and history, if that helps. I do however recognize that there is an Indo-European connection and I am also interested in Hinduism and Buddhism (though I am afraid of losing the life affirmation aspect to certain meditative techniques to reduce pain/suffering which I believe is necessary to learn and build character). But I want to focus on European (still love Ireland) and more specifically my German ancestry.

I presume, that your line of reasoning is innocent, fine and dandy in USA, and I very much appreciate to hear, that there are young intellectuals out there (Carry on reading! Reading is good!), but I want to share a perspective from my continent, which may bring another angle on your pursuit.

Nationalism is an ideology, that repeatedly brought havoc on Europe in the first half of the 20th century. An interest in old German religion and in 'the Indo-European connection', combined with romanticism and a misinterpretation of Nietzsche (who wasn't a nationalist nor a racist), was very much alive in Nazi Germany. It was called Deutsche Glaubensbewegung. The 1914-1945 era in European history has left scars of several sorts, all over the continent.

There exist benevolent forms of nationalism. The Scottish one and the Welsh one in our time spring to mind, but the thing to remember, about these two exceptions, is that these two forms of nationalism are based on the concept of citizenship, not ethnicity.

There also exist benevolent forms of revivals of Germanic religion (especially the Norse one). The predominant denomination for Old Norse religion in Sweden, Samfundet Forn Sed Sverige (Swedish Fornsi∂r Association), is open for anyone, regardless of ethnic background, sex or sexual orientation, and nationalism is a very unusual view within it.

M. Schlottman · « **Reply #6 on:** April 26, 2016, 09:18:01 pm »

Quote from: Mewtini;190386

At least you're into Hegel, so that's a good start. But remember that you are more than just a product of ancestry. And even so, ancestries are complicated things, so with all probability your tree has major forks which ended up in entirely different regions of Europe, possibly even outside of it.

Well, I want to thank you all for your consideration. I really do want to separate myself from neo-nazis and I am glad that this community is opposed to to them. That in particular is difficult after people know I am German (with a quarter French), even though I do mostly talk about Ireland in a nationalist context as a long subjugated people while Frederick the Great and 18th century Prussia suits my fancy historically. In response to being authoritarian- I actually am politically libertarian and I oppose forcing one's beliefs upon others. However, I do wish people were more socially involved in their communities.

To clarify- I really enjoy history and a major part of this is understanding where I come from. I meant to imply that I want to understand the genuine holidays and practices. Maybe I would not celebrate in the same way, but I would like to find festivities meaningful to me because it intends to relate to what my ancestors would have done. To me it is about recognizing the importance of past wisdom (I once found myself in the trap of renaissance logical positivism and disdain for former/outdated values).

Perhaps this is truly not for me and I knew that going into this. I was actually referred to this forum by a kind bookshop-keeper at our renaissance fair. I plan on going through college for at least four years to complete a major in computer science, but I really want to become a history professor (yes, I understand the implications of debt and the amount of work I must put in as an understudy- this is not new for me). We talked for about an hour and my main question was how I could find more about paganism that was not so much in believing the deities exist nor led me to the Nazis that use it for their own purposes. I do find myself able to make stronger connections to the mythology than a base understanding of something as one would do with engineering or math. During my research into this, I have assuaged a cultural desire or appetite if you will. I feel that I am reaching higher up Maslow's Hierarchy when I feel genuine self-fulfillment that I cannot get outside of history or making cultural connections to people (same for understanding others cultures and beliefs- I converse with Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, etc.).

I have read more on paganism and I have watched some YouTube videos of people who identify as secular pagans. The reason why I am so interested in paganism is because I believe I have found something that matches my beliefs rather than trying to force myself into a belief. The best that I can make how I feel comprehensible is that I have yearning to explore deeper into both my family history and European history (please do not think that I discard the products of Asia, Africa, or the native Americans) and I receive positive self-fulfillment from it. This is very much a personal endeavor for me as a continuation of my journey. The closest I could relate this to is romantic nationalism which I think has stirred a different image in this thread than what I think of: Herder, Hegel, Goethe, brothers Grimm, Beowulf, Hawthorne, Caspar Friedrich, Delacroix are ones that come to mind from the books I have read and art (mostly 19th century). I have also grown my passion for paganism in particular from reading an article on the Art of Manliness connecting Odin to the contemporary man along with what I have read elsewhere online to further my understanding. The story of how Odin lost his eye (seeing the world) in the pursuit of wisdom (otherworldly sight) has struck me especially and so have the other stories of paganism.

Anything about what I can read more for secular paganism (growing my knowledge and connections without belief in the intervention of deities or magic) would be greatly appreciated- I have found it difficult to find what I am looking for and thus is the reason why the bookstore owner pointed me in the direction of ecauldron. I don't mind spending more time and effort researching this- that is actually what I am asking for as I have enjoyed learning about what I have already found. If I continue in this direction, I may consider furthering my research in college and finding a way to work under a professor. Literature on various European pagans or introduction to the mythology helps(again I identify mostly German, because that is where a majority of my family comes from, although I am a quarter French and I love Ireland which would make any Celtic information interesting- not to mention my family practically were the foundation of the American colonies). In any case I have exhausted the works of most political and economic thought so a further expansion into ancient Europe and understanding pagan belief could not hurt. But I do feel that what I have seen through a friend of mine who is pagan does fit what I already believe- otherwise I would not be so concerned with finding more. The main difference that I have with her is that she is more natural in spirituality and I have the stronger passion for history with much erudition, although she also does not believe in divine beings.

I do find that it is the meaning that I give historical figures that makes them so real to me and that is why I feel that I connect to paganism.

M. Schlottman · « **Reply #7 on:** April 26, 2016, 09:34:42 pm »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;190425

There exist benevolent forms of nationalism. The Scottish one and the Welsh one in our time spring to mind, but the thing to remember, about these two exceptions, is that these two forms of nationalism are based on the concept of citizenship, not ethnicity.

There also exist benevolent forms of revivals of Germanic religion (especially the Norse one). The predominant denomination for Old Norse religion in Sweden, Samfundet Forn Sed Sverige (Swedish Fornsi∂r Association), is open for anyone, regardless of ethnic background, sex or sexual orientation, and nationalism is a very unusual view within it.

Thank you so much! I am glad that you have taken my post with more understanding. I do think that nationalism has become more of a decisive force (Nietzsche thought it divided Europeans and it did beginning in WWI). When I think of nationalism, I think of Napoleon not owning the European continent and Ireland and India not being under the British empire or a nation which is a group of people connected by a common history, culture or language. Also I do not base it on ethnicity (maybe cultural group, although not in a "who has pure bloodlines" kind of way)- thus I emphasize unity in citizenship and participation in politics and the local community(hence my political interest). The Swedish group you mention sounds great and I might mention it to others later on; I have a pagan friend in England and she finds difficulty with her beliefs, because she is lesbian so maybe this will pique her interest.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #8 on:** April 26, 2016, 09:58:59 pm »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190435

To clarify- I really enjoy history and a major part of this is understanding where I come from. I meant to imply that I want to understand the genuine holidays and practices. Maybe I would not celebrate in the same way, but I would like to find festivities meaningful to me because it intends to relate to what my ancestors would have done. To me it is about recognizing the importance of past wisdom (I once found myself in the trap of renaissance logical positivism and disdain for former/outdated values).

The German stem-duchies converted to Christianity much earlier than Scandinavia and Iceland, Bavaria and Schwaben very early. St. Boniface was predominantly doing missionary work in Thuringia. Old Saxony (now Low Saxony - Niedersachsen, not to be confused with the bundesland called Sachsen today) was the last of the stem-duchies to convert, so we can't talk about the conversion of Germany as a single event. Anyhow, this means, that the historical sources to old Germanic religion are more numerous and voluminous in the late converted Scandinavian-Icelandic part of Europe, than in early converted Germany. It wouldn't surprise me, however, if there were some hings in common. After all, West-Germanic and North-Germanic religions evolved from a common Germanic source from 500 BCE. If you don't find it too Northern, I would suggest that you regard four times of the year as festival seasons, based on what we know from the Icelandic calendar: late January, late April, late July and late October. The Icelandic calendar did (and does) split the year in two half-years. The beginning of the summer half is late April. The beginning of the winter half is late October. The mid-point of the summer half is late July. The mid-point of the winter half is late January.

It sounds like you could be interested in Traditionalist authors. In my view, it would be healthier and more useful to read René Guenon, Frithiof Schuon, Ananda Coomaraswamy, Leo Schaya, Marco Pallis, Titus Burckhardt, Aldous Huxley, Bede Griffiths, Sayyed Hossein Nasr, Kurt Almqvist, Huston Smith and Ken Wilber, than to read the politically deeply problematic Julius Evola, Arturo Reghini, Tage Lindbom and Aleksandr Dugin.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #9 on:** April 26, 2016, 10:21:23 pm »

Quote from: M. Schlottman;190437

When I think of nationalism, I think of Napoleon not owning the European continent and Ireland and India not being under the British empire

When I discuss this sort of matter with anybody not Scottish or Welsh, I prefer to use the word regionalism about a citizenship-based will to independence or autonomy.

The word nationalism has generally a very bad vibe here in Europe, which is understandable, considering the past.

Something I admire with the British, is the lighthearted playfulness British nationalism may express itself in at The Last Night of the Proms. That sort of nationalism is less poisonous than the variety that troubles Europe's common past, and the diversity among the participants of the Proms show that even that sort of nationalism is more of the citizenship based sort, than the ethnic one.

I believe that the Norwegians have been able to develop a citizenship-based regionalism-nationalism, too, ironically in a reaction to the German occupation during WWII.

Here in Sweden nationalism comes in two flavours: either cheesy or dangerous. Nationalist pyromaniacs torches living quarters of refugees here. In the present. The major part of the population (80%) is aghast of this development, and the arson isn't cheered from the ambivalent part of the remaining 20%, but there exist a small and fanatic nucleus of nationalists that are outright lethally dangerous. That is not something to romanticize. Let me also remind you and other readers about the highly dangerous present political development in Hungary and Poland.

CottageWitch · « **Reply #10 on:** April 26, 2016, 10:44:03 pm »

Quote from: Castus;190403

Oh hardly.

OP, I think you're drifting into the common nationalistic trap of adopting a religion because of it's nationalistic value rather than out of any true belief. That's a very unsavoury road, and I would think long and hard, if I were you, about your true motivations for looking into Heathenry or Reconstructionism as a methodology.

How then do you teach a spiritual path or something like "magic" to an atheist? Its a good sign he got into Buddhism b/c meditation is one of the most important things you can do to train your mind/body.

If he seeks the old ways, then he is probably interesting in Green Witchcraft or Ecletic style. He seems to be seeking a connecting to Mother Earth, b/c to the ancients the most important thing was "the hand that feeds". I personally am not a big fan of labels but all that he has to do is get to know "Mother Earth" better and no particular path is needed per se. Unless of course its wanted. It seems like he is "stuck in his head" (which is a good thing to an extent) but he needs the balance of the Earth connection. So, my advice for him is to learn about herbs, essential oils, teas, and anything Earth related. Go on nature walks, feel the breeze, and make it the focus of your life like it was in ancient times. How is soap made? Do you bake? Do you know how to sew? All things of the hearth, the home. How were people living back then? Naturally of course. I don't think he is longing for the philosophy rather he is longing for the "old way" of living more simply and organically. Yet, the rational mind interprets it differently of course. That's why it always good idea for us all to ask each other questions and we all grow under the same sun.

As far as Celtic connections; Brigid was so beloved, the Catholic Church couldn't erase her. If she is the key here, it confirms what I said above that this balance is needed in his life. In that case, he may have came to the right place. lol

HarpingHawke · « **Reply #11 on:** April 27, 2016, 12:20:03 am »

Quote from: CottageWitch;190440

How then do you teach a spiritual path or something like "magic" to an atheist?

Magic can be practiced in a secular manner.

Quote

If he seeks the old ways, then he is probably interesting in Green Witchcraft or Ecletic style.

As far as I know, Green Witchcraft has its roots in older practice, but as a whole has been adapted for the present. Also: there's a lot more than one "old way."

Quote

He seems to be seeking a connecting to Mother Earth,

Except...that wasn't really mentioned?

Quote

b/c to the ancients the most important thing was "the hand that feeds".

That seems like a bit of an overgeneralization to me. Also, since this is in quotes and I can't figure any other reason for this to be the case, did you get that phrase from somewhere?

Quote

I personally am not a big fan of labels but all that he has to do is get to know "Mother Earth" better and no particular path is needed per se.

I get where you're coming from, but not every pagan honors "mother earth," nor does every pagan feel the need to connect that way. The earth-honoring thing is actually path-specific as far as I'm aware.

Quote

How were people living back then? Naturally of course. I don't think he is longing for the philosophy rather he is longing for the "old way" of living more simply and organically.

How do you know that? I'm genuinely curious, because unless my tired self missed something in OP's posts, they didn't mention that specifically. But, instead of just assuming, OP, are you interested in that?

HarpingHawke · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2016, 12:23:32 am »

Quote from: HarpingHawke;190442

As far as I know, Green Witchcraft has its roots in older practice, but as a whole has been adapted for the present. Also: there's a lot more than one "old way."

I also forgot to mention: if one is looking for "the old ways," whatever that rather nebulous term means, then Reconstructionism seems like a safer bet than more "Neo" forms of paganism.

But it actually looks like OP's really doing their research, and the replies here look helpful, so.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #13 on:** April 27, 2016, 09:55:28 am »

Quote from: CottageWitch;190440

How then do you teach a spiritual path or something like "magic" to an atheist?

Without gods. It's not like they're required for either.

Quote

If he seeks the old ways, then he is probably interesting in Green Witchcraft or Ecletic style.

No, people looking for old ways tend not to be looking for 20th century innovations.

Quote

He seems to be seeking a connecting to Mother Earth, b/c to the ancients the most important thing was "the hand that feeds". I personally am not a big fan of labels but all that he has to do is get to know "Mother Earth" better and no particular path is needed per se.

Well, that does depend on "the ancients" in question, doesn't it? Cultural studies demonstrate that the values of ancient cultures varied a great deal, and the amount of significance they placed on various things also varied.

It also shows that not all cultures treated the earth as feminine.

Allaya · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2016, 11:30:49 am »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;190439

I believe that the Norwegians have been able to develop a citizenship-based regionalism-nationalism, too, ironically in a reaction to the German occupation during WWII.

The Norwegian national identity grew out of a reaction to Swedish politics primarily during early period of the union between the two kingdoms.

German occupation during WWII only reinforced something that was already there.

News:

Recent Posts

Author Topic: What path of paganism should I follow? (Read 4816 times)

Related Topics

Beginner Area

Who's Online

Please Donate!

Shop & Support TC

In Memoriam

Cauldron Staff