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Author Topic: Our Miserable Future  (Read 7209 times)

DIASPORA-1963

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Our Miserable Future
« on: April 09, 2016, 05:01:36 pm »
The following are discussion points.
Nothing that is said is meant as a bald statement of fact that must be accepted by anyone who reads it.
Disagreement w/any one or all of the statements is FINE.

After having listened to a series of lectures by physicist Lawrence Krauss, I made the following notes, summarizing what I got from his lectures ("Our Miserable Future", "The Secret Lives of Physicists") ...

1) The "Game" (TG) began long before humanity existed - and will continue long after humanity has become extinct. [The "Game" = the struggle for life in a hostile Universe][Krauss did not call it the "Game" - I did, given his assertion that things only matter here and now, that, eventually, they mean nothing at all]

2) The rules of TG are both simple and immutable: a) survive for as long as feasible; b) leave a tangible mark of one's existence, if possible (for most of what lives, this means simply reproducing); c) then die and be forgotten*[1].

* Not even the famous are truly remembered for long. What is remembered, instead, is the person's legend - the stories that others tell about the famous person. Many of these stories are inaccurate; some of these stories are lies.

[1] What happens here matters only so much for so long and, then, it matters not at all - forever. The planet, the solar system, the galaxy itself will all be gone eventually, all violently transformed into new things w/few if any clues to their pasts. Make no mistake: humanity is doomed to extinction, as is everything that exists. In time, every human artifact will be wiped from the Universe, so that there will be no discernible trace anywhere. As important as our lives are to us, on the Cosmic Scale, they weigh - and mean - nothing. [Our galaxy is on a collision path w/the Andromeda galaxy - but our Sun will have burned out long before that happens - burned out and taken the solar system w/it ...]
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 05:06:08 pm by DIASPORA-1963 »
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Allaya

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 05:10:36 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189758
The following are discussion points.
Nothing that is said is meant as a bald statement of fact that must be accepted by anyone who reads it.
Disagreement w/any one or all of the statements is FINE.

After having listened to a series of lectures by physicist Lawrence Krauss, I made the following notes, summarizing what I got from his lectures ("Our Miserable Future", "The Secret Lives of Physicists") ...

1) The "Game" (TG) began long before humanity existed - and will continue long after humanity has become extinct. [The "Game" = the struggle for life in a hostile Universe][Krauss did not call it the "Game" - I did, given his assertion that things only matter here and now, that, eventually, they mean nothing at all]

2) The rules of TG are both simple and immutable: a) survive for as long as feasible; b) leave a tangible mark of one's existence, if possible (for most of what lives, this means simply reproducing); c) then die and be forgotten*[1].

* Not even the famous are truly remembered for long. What is remembered, instead, is the person's legend - the stories that others tell about the famous person. Many of these stories are inaccurate; some of these stories are lies.

[1] What happens here matters only so much for so long and, then, it matters not at all - forever. The planet, the solar system, the galaxy itself will all be gone eventually, all violently transformed into new things w/few if any clues to their pasts. Make no mistake: humanity is doomed to extinction, as is everything that exists. In time, every human artifact will be wiped from the Universe, so that there will be no discernible trace anywhere. As important as our lives are to us, on the Cosmic Scale, they weigh - and mean - nothing. [Our galaxy is on a collision path w/the Andromeda galaxy - but our Sun will have burned out long before that happens - burned out and taken the solar system w/it ...]

 
So...what are we even discussing here? I see a series of statements.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
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People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 05:17:07 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;189759
So...what are we even discussing here? I see a series of statements.

 
All I know is that all I am seeing in my head is this.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2016, 05:26:36 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;189759
So...what are we even discussing here? I see a series of statements.

 
Do you agree w/them - disagree w/them? What do you have to say about them? I left out my own opinion of them for the time being.
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Allaya

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 05:33:31 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189762
Do you agree w/them - disagree w/them? What do you have to say about them? I left out my own opinion of them for the time being.

 
I'm not sure there's much room for debating that things are born, then they live for a while, then they die.

I mean, it's not really a thing that merits an opinion. I mean, I don't particularly have an opinion regarding gravity or Kepler's laws of planetary motion either.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2016, 05:40:33 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;189763
I'm not sure there's much room for debating that things are born, then they live for a while, then they die.

I mean, it's not really a thing that merits an opinion. I mean, I don't particularly have an opinion regarding gravity or Kepler's laws of planetary motion either.

 
What about an afterlife? What about reincarnation? Maybe Buddha was right - the phenomenal world is illusion ...
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Allaya

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2016, 05:48:38 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189764
What about an afterlife? What about reincarnation? Maybe Buddha was right - the phenomenal world is illusion ...

 
You do realize that you're off-shoring your discussion construction to others, yes? If you weren't ready to formulate a discussion lead-in, then perhaps you should have considered not starting a new discussion topic until you had one prepared.

Personally, I don't really like it when someone asks me to do all the discussional heavy lifting without having bothered to do any themselves beforehand.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2016, 05:53:31 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;189765
You do realize that you're off-shoring your discussion construction to others, yes? If you weren't ready to formulate a discussion lead-in, then perhaps you should have considered not starting a new discussion topic until you had one prepared.

Personally, I don't really like it when someone asks me to do all the discussional heavy lifting without having bothered to do any themselves beforehand.

 
Well, I was trying to avoid a problem that I had in another thread - coming across as uninterested in other people's opinions.

As far as the physical Universe goes, Krauss is almost certainly right.

As far as the spiritual realm, I do not know; however, I do like to believe that it does not depend upon the physical Universe for its survival - but I could be wrong ...
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Jack

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 06:15:45 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189758
2) The rules of TG are both simple and immutable: a) survive for as long as feasible; b) leave a tangible mark of one's existence, if possible (for most of what lives, this means simply reproducing); c) then die and be forgotten*[1].

Sounds like an argument for pursuing apotheosis and bailing on the "game". If I'm immortal I don't give a shit about being forgotten. XD
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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 06:26:00 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189758
[Our galaxy is on a collision path w/the Andromeda galaxy - but our Sun will have burned out long before that happens - burned out and taken the solar system w/it ...]

That's not quite correct, the sun will probably not even reach it's full red giant stage until 6-7 billion years from now, well after the Milky War and the Andromeda Galaxy have collided and merged into a single galaxy. The Earth will likely be uninhabitable long before that as the sun's temperature will continue to increase until it starts its red giant stage. The sun itself will collapse to a white dwarf at the end of it red giant stage where it will remain for many billions of years before actually burning out. This doesn't affect the main point, of course.
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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2016, 06:27:48 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;189763
I'm not sure there's much room for debating that things are born, then they live for a while, then they die.

 
Yep.  There's no there there.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2016, 06:38:43 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;189770
That's not quite correct, the sun will probably not even reach it's full red giant stage until 6-7 billion years from now, well after the Milky War and the Andromeda Galaxy have collided and merged into a single galaxy. The Earth will likely be uninhabitable long before that as the sun's temperature will continue to increase until it starts its red giant stage. The sun itself will collapse to a white dwarf at the end of it red giant stage where it will remain for many billions of years before actually burning out. This doesn't affect the main point, of course.

Ah, thank you ... I'd been given a rather different time line - are you sure about the 6-7 billion years? How long before the Earth becomes uninhabitable? Certainly much sooner.
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2016, 06:40:59 pm »
Quote from: Jack;189767
Sounds like an argument for pursuing apotheosis and bailing on the "game". If I'm immortal I don't give a shit about being forgotten. XD

 
OK. But the Egyptians thought that one could not be immortal if one were forgotten. Obviously you think that they were wrong - ?
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2016, 06:42:35 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189764
What about an afterlife? What about reincarnation? Maybe Buddha was right - the phenomenal world is illusion ...

 
If that's what you wanted to have a discussion about, it would have been much clearer if you'd said so in your OP. There was nothing whatsoever in there to indicate that these were the topics you wanted to discuss.

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Re: Our Miserable Future ...
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2016, 06:43:23 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;189758
[1] What happens here matters only so much for so long and, then, it matters not at all - forever. The planet, the solar system, the galaxy itself will all be gone eventually, all violently transformed into new things w/few if any clues to their pasts. Make no mistake: humanity is doomed to extinction, as is everything that exists. In time, every human artifact will be wiped from the Universe, so that there will be no discernible trace anywhere. As important as our lives are to us, on the Cosmic Scale, they weigh - and mean - nothing. [Our galaxy is on a collision path w/the Andromeda galaxy - but our Sun will have burned out long before that happens - burned out and taken the solar system w/it ...]

 
Like others have pointed out, my thought on this are the same as my thoughts on gravity. Essentially, 'Okay, that's a thing. Anyway.'

Now, what Jack brought up about apotheosis...that's interesting to me. Can't comment right now because of time, but ooh, I have thoughts on that. They're probably all wrong or off-the-mark but, apotheosis, the universe, destruction...ah, now that I love. Will say more when I have the time!

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