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Author Topic: Repurpose of a Bible?  (Read 7026 times)

Satanas' Horse

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Repurpose of a Bible?
« on: April 08, 2016, 11:48:56 pm »
Well, I suppose not technically re-purpose so much as hunt down every minuscule mention of Lucifer/Satan/Devil. I'll be very, very honest. Like many others, I have never read the bible cover to cover and, frankly, I probably won't start from the front cover because I tried that and... no, but thanks anyway. I'm not here to worship any form of God, so catching every pinch of detail on his behalf isn't necessarily a goal, although it's always good to learn more if possible, even if not utilized.

I feel really tired and am probably beating around the bush right now, sorry.

Do you use a bible for your practices, especially if you are not at all Christian? Looking primarily at you satanists and luciferians and what-have-yous. (Of course I would love to have answers from everyone because I love knowing stuff.)

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 12:08:43 am »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189700
Do you use a bible for your practices, especially if you are not at all Christian? Looking primarily at you satanists and luciferians and what-have-yous. (Of course I would love to have answers from everyone because I love knowing stuff.)

It sounds like you're asking about using the Bible as a research material, no different than reading the Eddas to see what they say about Loki or whatnot. It's a source. That seems valid to me.

Of course I just got done with a survey of the way the gospels talk about Judas and a read through of the Gospel thereof. I've been reading the Bible as a research source since college. Other folks are likely to feel differently.

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Satanas' Horse

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 12:31:54 am »
Quote from: Jack;189701
It sounds like you're asking about using the Bible as a research material, no different than reading the Eddas to see what they say about Loki or whatnot. It's a source. That seems valid to me.

Of course I just got done with a survey of the way the gospels talk about Judas and a read through of the Gospel thereof. I've been reading the Bible as a research source since college. Other folks are likely to feel differently.

 
Yes, a research tool. I took the long way around to say that, I guess. That is a good point and is pretty interesting!

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2016, 09:26:33 am »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189700
Well, I suppose not technically re-purpose so much as hunt down every minuscule mention of Lucifer/Satan/Devil.


There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly suggest, that Lucifer and Satan are supposed to be the same being. The identification of them with each other occurred in Origen's book Peri Archon, known as De Principiis in Latin. Origen wrote that book at some point during the first half of the 3d century.

Helel ben Shachar, The Morning Star, son of the Dawn, is a god within the West-Semitic pantheon. He was supposed to have made an unsuccessful attempt to overthrow El, the king of the gods. The name 'El' is used about the Abrahamite God in the Hebrew Bible. Helel's myth was, as it seems, well-known enough to the contemporaries of the prophet Isaiah, in order to make it useful for the purpose of criticizing the king of Babylonia in Isaiah 14. Helel is given the Latin name Lucifer in Latin translations.

A similar imagery is used in order to criticize the king of Tyros in Ezechiel 28, but Helel is not mentioned explicitly in that chapter.

Satan, on the other hand, means 'accuser' or 'prosecutor'. He is originally not a rebel against God, but a very zealous bureaucrat, who fulfils his god-given mission to find faults with humans in a more fanatic way than God had expected. You have the beginning of that myth in Job 1.

The idea of a divine court of justice is not peculiar for Judaism, but is found in many other religions: Osiris is a judge in Afterlife in Egyptian religion, and king Minos hold a similar duty in Greek mythology. The motif is present in Zoroastrianism.

A fall of Satan is mentioned in Luke 10.18.

In Revelations 12, a primordial Dragon is mentioned, and for the first time it is explicitly identified with Satan. Helel (Lucifer) is not mentioned in Revelations 12.

Where does this dragon-myth come, you probably ask? A few instances in the Hebrew Bible mentions a dragon-myth: Psalms 74 and 91; Isaiah 27 and 51; Ezechiel 29 and 32.

Please remember, that the way to number Psalms differ between Jewish, Protestant and Anglican bibles on the one hand, and Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bibles on the other.

There are several other beings mentioned in the Bible, who are not explicitly identified with Lucifer or Satan, but have been incorporated into traditional Abrahamite demonological lore, sometimes identifying them with Satan and/or Lucifer, sometimes keeping them apart.

Azazel is mentioned in Leviticus 16, about the celebration of the festival Yom Kippur. Please, do not mix him up with Azrael (Notice the difference in spelling).

Asmodeus is mentioned in the Book of Tobit. You have to check either an  Anglican/Episcopalian Bible, a Lutheran Bible, or a Roman Catholic Bible to find the Book of Tobit. The Ultra-Protestants leave the Book of Tobit and other Deutero-Canonical books out of the Bible.

Leviathan and Behemoth are mentioned in Job 40, Leviathan also in Job 3; Psalms 74 and 104; and Isaiah 27.

Spirits similar to Graeco-Roman satyrs and fauns, and to Hindu-Buddhist yakshas, seirim, are mentioned in Leviticus 17.7; Deutoronomy 32.17 and 2Chron. 11.15.

The word for lunchtime or afternoon in Psalm 91.6 was interpreted among some Jews to refer to a particular type of lesser spirit, Tseirim. That interpretation existed already in the 3d century BCE, and it influenced the choice of wording in the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint. If you check Septuagint, please remember that the Hebrew Psalm 91 is Greek Psalm 90.

Belial/Beliar is mentioned in 2Cor. 6.15.

Beelsebul is mentioned in Mark 3.22; Luke 11.15 and Matt. 12.24.

The Prince of this world (identified as the Demiurge by the Gnostics) is mentioned in John 12.31, 14.30, 16.11.

The Prince of Air (I don't know how that expression is conventionally translated into English) is mentioned in Eph. 2.2.

Elementals are mentioned in Gal. 4.3 and Col. 2.20.

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 12:32:05 pm »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189700
Do you use a bible for your practices, especially if you are not at all Christian? Looking primarily at you satanists and luciferians and what-have-yous. (Of course I would love to have answers from everyone because I love knowing stuff.)

 
When I was a child, I had my mom's old bible. I read it, because I liked to read and I figured Jesus was supposed to be nice. I started studying paganism as a teenager, so while the bible didn't really factor into my practices, it was helpful: I wound up using it in high school a lot because I lived in the Bible Belt. I liked to argue, so I wanted to be prepared with relevant passages when someone would invariably say something stupid in the name of their god.

I hung onto it until my mid 20s, slotted into the mythology section on my bookshelf. I used it as a reference for some writing, but eventually I realised I hadn't opened it in years and so when I did a book purge it went into the box and out of my life.

Satanas' Horse

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2016, 09:20:27 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189724


Thanks for the highlights. I have an personal perspective built upon Satan/Lucifer that came with being raised Baptist. Or at least, everywhere I've been that was baptist. Satan is a title, Lucifer is a name of the title holder. Therefore, Lucifer is/became/whatever the 'accuser'. I don't know how to properly explain what's in my head, but yeah, that's what I'm building upon, I guess.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 10:11:58 pm by Morag »

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2016, 07:09:33 am »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189799
Thanks for the highlights. I have an personal perspective built upon Satan/Lucifer that came with being raised Baptist. Or at least, everywhere I've been that was baptist. Satan is a title, Lucifer is a name of the title holder. Therefore, Lucifer is/became/whatever the 'accuser'. I don't know how to properly explain what's in my head, but yeah, that's what I'm building upon, I guess.


I suppose the views of Baptists are informed by Origen, without the Baptists knowing it. Perhaps the same is (selectively) true about their relation to Augustine of Hippo. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Baptists believe in the total depravity of humankind (following Augustine that far), but believe that departed infants go to heaven (not following Augustine in that regard)?

Satanas' Horse

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2016, 12:06:01 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189814
I suppose the views of Baptists are informed by Origen, without the Baptists knowing it. Perhaps the same is (selectively) true about their relation to Augustine of Hippo. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Baptists believe in the total depravity of humankind (following Augustine that far), but believe that departed infants go to heaven (not following Augustine in that regard)?

 
My upbringing, I was taught infants who are not baptized do not assend at death. The only way to reach God's grace is to accept Jesus as your one ams only Lord and Savior. Everyone else is literally going to Hell in the beliefs I was raised on.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2016, 02:41:12 pm »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189824
My upbringing, I was taught infants who are not baptized do not assend at death. The only way to reach God's grace is to accept Jesus as your one ams only Lord and Savior. Everyone else is literally going to Hell in the beliefs I was raised on.

 
Oh. Baptists in your part of the world are then even harsher than Swedish Baptists, then. I don't know much about them either. They abolished themselves a few years ago, by a merger with the Methodists and the Congregationalists.

Satanas' Horse

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2016, 09:07:49 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189839
Oh. Baptists in your part of the world are then even harsher than Swedish Baptists, then. I don't know much about them either. They abolished themselves a few years ago, by a merger with the Methodists and the Congregationalists.

 
I honestly had no idea there was such a difference under the same guise, honestly. Although, something else that is interesting to me know that I distinctly remember about being taught in multiple churches: Heaven was to be built entirely of gold, from streets to structures. Why exactly is a place like Heaven perceived as a place entirely of gold? Makes me think quite deeply about a multitude of things, from the Sheep to the Shepard.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2016, 07:09:49 am »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189865
Heaven was to be built entirely of gold, from streets to structures. Why exactly is a place like Heaven perceived as a place entirely of gold?


Did they really interpret that literally? If they did, they never stop surprising me.

Satanas' Horse

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2016, 12:50:36 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189879
Did they really interpret that literally? If they did, they never stop surprising me.

 
They must have, because I remember it clear as day from my childhood. The even had an illustration that they showed us in Sunday School.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2016, 01:13:12 pm »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189895
They must have, because I remember it clear as day from my childhood. The even had an illustration that they showed us in Sunday School.


And it wasn't because they doubted the capacity of children to think in abstractions? I am ready to give them the benefit of doubt.

But it sounds like the difference between Anglicans and Lutherans on one side, and Baptists on the other, is greater than I expected on topics I haven't given much of attention. The two different views on baptism or evolution are more obvious subject matters, and eucharistic theology another one: Anglicans generally have a more sacrificial view on the Eucharist than the Baptists have, and the Lutherans generally have a heavier emphasis on Real Presence than the widespread commemorative-symbolic view Baptists nurture in most cases, but many Anglicans share the Lutheran view on the Real Presence: I think that all Anglican cathedrals in England preserve consecrated hosts in tabernacles or pyxes, just like the Roman Catholics do, and I am under the impression, that that custom isn't typical for Baptists.

Satanas' Horse

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2016, 01:26:27 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;189899
And it wasn't because they doubted the capacity of children to think in abstractions? I am ready to give them the benefit of doubt.

But it sounds like the difference between Anglicans and Lutherans on one side, and Baptists on the other, is greater than I expected on topics I haven't given much of attention. The two different views on baptism or evolution are more obvious subject matters, and eucharistic theology another one: Anglicans generally have a more sacrificial view on the Eucharist than the Baptists have, and the Lutherans generally have a heavier emphasis on Real Presence than the widespread commemorative-symbolic view Baptists nurture in most cases, but many Anglicans share the Lutheran view on the Real Presence: I think that all Anglican cathedrals in England preserve consecrated hosts in tabernacles or pyxes, just like the Roman Catholics do, and I am under the impression, that that custom isn't typical for Baptists.

 
Actually, my last religious venture with Baptism was going to a place called Falls Creek, which is a Baptist church camp that has hundreds of kids visit every year. We had tabernacle, which consisted mostly of religious music, encouraging the opening of hearts to Jesus, and finding the voice of God, as well as a lot of Sheep and Shepard talk. Scaring the shit out of you about Hell was apparently left strictly for church it seems, as Falls Creek was to be a good, fun, safe social place to bring the youth deeper into Baptist ideology. It worked, too. I almost had my re-awakening, but it died quickly and my new path was solidified.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Repurpose of a Bible?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2016, 02:20:47 pm »
Quote from: Satanas' Horse;189900
We had tabernacle, which consisted mostly of religious music, encouraging the opening of hearts to Jesus, and finding the voice of God, as well as a lot of Sheep and Shepard talk.

Then Baptists and Anglicans use the word tabernacle in two very different ways. An Anglican tabernacle is not a type of service, but a dignified and decorative cupboard in a church building, used for preserving the consecrated eucharistic bread between services, usually with a perpetual sanctuary lamp burning close to the tabernacle. A pyx is a similar furniture or vessel, distinguished from a tabernacle in that regard, that it is suspended from the ceiling, and is a more frequent choice among Anglicans, because some Anglicans are wary of becoming taken for Roman Catholics by mistake. Some Anglicans pray privately in front of pyxes or tabernacles, because Jesus is believed to be sacramentally present there. Christians with a purely symbolic (or less) view on the Eucharist, would find that custom hard to understand, of course. Different doctrinal views lead to different customs.

If I hadn't been a Cultor Deorum and a Druid, I would probably had become a Liberal Anglo-Catholic. There are slightly theurgical qualities over Anglo-Catholic celebrations of the Eucharist - just like a contemplative sacrificial ritual to the Sun. Some Anglicans, like William Ralph Inge and Evelyn Underhill, have written studies worth reading on Plotinus, and modern Druidry was invented by an Anglican vicar, William Stukeley. Episcopalians are nice, at least in Scotland. Considerably less so in Nigeria, Uganda and Sudan.

There is no big difference between two cultores deorum discussing Cicero over glasses of sherry in a common room and two anglicans discussing Cicero over glasses of sherry in a common room, after all.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 02:29:03 pm by RecycledBenedict »

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