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Author Topic: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins  (Read 8658 times)

Gnowan

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Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« on: March 14, 2016, 04:15:31 am »
I had an epiphany tonight.

I believe I'm an empath.  I know it's a new-agey word and I can talk about more details later, if need be.

Long story as short as I can make it, I've become rather an introvert in the last few years because I suck at shielding and absorb a lot of the energy around me and I also get my energy sucked dry by some of those around me.

Here's the epiphany!  I think Jesus was an empath with a capitol E!  I never understood the notion that Jesus died for our sins.  (What sins!  Babies don't sin, etc.!)  After sucking in a few people's energy and getting sucked out, which is draining as hell--(I have three close women in my life losing their mothers right now, and I can hardly keep my eyes open), I think I understand the concept of Jesus dying for our sins.  But on a huge gigantomungous scale!

Jesus created a vortex, of sorts, with his own life, that can suck the sins (those things  in us that create disharmony) from us and bring back the energy in a harmonious way.

He took that pain (I can't even begin to imagine taking on that much) down into the Earth and came back cleansed and renewed and the vortex remains.

I'm not Christian, but I've been spending time lately working on the Christian mysteries.

But I finally have a way to relate to the idea of Jesus dying for our sins.  It makes sense to me in this light.

Faemon

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 08:27:25 am »
Quote from: Gnowan;188062
I never understood the notion that Jesus died for our sins.  (What sins!  Babies don't sin, etc.!)  After sucking in a few people's energy and getting sucked out, which is draining as hell--(I have three close women in my life losing their mothers right now, and I can hardly keep my eyes open), I think I understand the concept of Jesus dying for our sins.  But on a huge gigantomungous scale! Jesus created a vortex, of sorts, with his own life, that can suck the sins (those things  in us that create disharmony) from us and bring back the energy in a harmonious way.

He took that pain (I can't even begin to imagine taking on that much) down into the Earth and came back cleansed and renewed and the vortex remains.

I'm not Christian, but I've been spending time lately working on the Christian mysteries. But I finally have a way to relate to the idea of Jesus dying for our sins.  It makes sense to me in this light.

 
It's an influential story.

I've heard it interpreted as how the rules for human life set by the big G earlier in the book were so contrary to human nature (don't covet, don't mix fabrics, don't touch the holy ark if it's about to topple over, if it's a human tendency it's probably wrong) that animal sacrifices became a way to temporarily cleanse the consequences of wayward behavior with blood, and Jesus was the gigantomungous culmination of that practice.

Or, that Jesus as God made flesh was just born to have a human experience and maybe figure out what made Godly laws so perpetually difficult for human beings to follow...and also demonstrate with his life that it actually wasn't impossible to live a human life without sin, like oh come on people.

Or, I usually took the "died for our sins" part to mean simply "died of an illegally conducted trial followed by a slow and painful execution and most nearby people generally being jerks".

I've considered it from the philosophical standpoint that all "sin" supposedly comes from the perpetrator's feeling of not being unconditionally loved, so a belief in a figure of unconditional love and forgiveness will transform somebody desperately empty and harmful into a human gate to heaven.

Unfortunately, I've also kept the company of vocally Saved people who tended to behave in toxic and abusive ways, justified it with how they forgave themselves because they were unconditionally loved by a supernatural entity, and held that their victims aren't allowed to judge from the outside whether they've "really" been saved (although they're free to judge from the outside themselves when it suits them.) Even with the contradiction, it's difficult for me to consider these "not real" Christians when such zeal is usually one of the few consistent things about them. And I've found interpretations of the same story that go in the opposite direction, in the guilt-and-shame-you-will-never-suffer-as-much-as-you-make-baby-Jesus-suffer direction, which isn't (in my arrogant opinion) helpful either?

If considering Jesus a demonstration of supernatural empathy helps you to cope with energy loss, identifying with that figure, then that's definitely one interpretation I'd add to chew on. It's one I hadn't heard before, and it's interesting--and if it helps you, it could help other empaths. :)

My condolences to your friends losing their mothers, too, and best wishes to your fortitude and recovery.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 08:33:25 am by Faemon »
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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 05:52:42 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188062
I had an epiphany tonight.

I believe I'm an empath.  I know it's a new-agey word and I can talk about more details later, if need be.

Long story as short as I can make it, I've become rather an introvert in the last few years because I suck at shielding and absorb a lot of the energy around me and I also get my energy sucked dry by some of those around me.

Here's the epiphany!  I think Jesus was an empath with a capitol E!  I never understood the notion that Jesus died for our sins.  (What sins!  Babies don't sin, etc.!)  After sucking in a few people's energy and getting sucked out, which is draining as hell--(I have three close women in my life losing their mothers right now, and I can hardly keep my eyes open), I think I understand the concept of Jesus dying for our sins.  But on a huge gigantomungous scale!

Jesus created a vortex, of sorts, with his own life, that can suck the sins (those things  in us that create disharmony) from us and bring back the energy in a harmonious way.

He took that pain (I can't even begin to imagine taking on that much) down into the Earth and came back cleansed and renewed and the vortex remains.

I'm not Christian, but I've been spending time lately working on the Christian mysteries.

But I finally have a way to relate to the idea of Jesus dying for our sins.  It makes sense to me in this light.

 
I don't think that's what 'sin' is. 'Sin' is a hard thing to explain because different groups have different interpretations. But generally, sin is a transgression against the will of God. The only way to expunge 'sin' is through forgiveness, which is only possible by accepting Jesus Christ. This means that the biggest sin of all, by default, is not being Christian, as only a Christian can actually do this.

When it comes to Jesus's death, it has little to do with concepts like 'Empath' and 'Energy' which are modern concepts not aligned with ancient Christianity.

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 06:14:27 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188062
I had an epiphany tonight.

I believe I'm an empath.  I know it's a new-agey word and I can talk about more details later, if need be.

Long story as short as I can make it, I've become rather an introvert in the last few years because I suck at shielding and absorb a lot of the energy around me and I also get my energy sucked dry by some of those around me.

Here's the epiphany!  I think Jesus was an empath with a capitol E!  I never understood the notion that Jesus died for our sins.  (What sins!  Babies don't sin, etc.!)  After sucking in a few people's energy and getting sucked out, which is draining as hell--(I have three close women in my life losing their mothers right now, and I can hardly keep my eyes open), I think I understand the concept of Jesus dying for our sins.  But on a huge gigantomungous scale!

Jesus created a vortex, of sorts, with his own life, that can suck the sins (those things  in us that create disharmony) from us and bring back the energy in a harmonious way.

He took that pain (I can't even begin to imagine taking on that much) down into the Earth and came back cleansed and renewed and the vortex remains.

I'm not Christian, but I've been spending time lately working on the Christian mysteries.

But I finally have a way to relate to the idea of Jesus dying for our sins.  It makes sense to me in this light.

 
I am not an expert on Christian mysticism, so I'm not even gonna get into that. But I think this theory hinges an awful lot on what 'sin' actually is.

I mean, in some denominations as soon as you're born you are considered a sinful creature. (As I understand it, that's why limbo is filled with unbaptized babies.)

Your definition of sin is not traditional, but I'm not much bothered by that. I guess what I'm curious about is what sins would be considered "those things  in us that create disharmony." Like, okay, murder is not very harmonious, but what about say, blasphemy?

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 09:48:36 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;188068

Or, that Jesus as God made flesh was just born to have a human experience and maybe figure out what made Godly laws so perpetually difficult for human beings to follow...and also demonstrate with his life that it actually wasn't impossible to live a human life without sin, like oh come on people.


I'm a panentheist, and I believe that we are God's way of looking at God.  Not a mirror.  An existentialistic way of being God made manifest.

Quote
I've considered it from the philosophical standpoint that all "sin" supposedly comes from the perpetrator's feeling of not being unconditionally loved, so a belief in a figure of unconditional love and forgiveness will transform somebody desperately empty and harmful into a human gate to heaven.

Unfortunately, I've also kept the company of vocally Saved people who tended to behave in toxic and abusive ways, justified it with how they forgave themselves because they were unconditionally loved by a supernatural entity, and held that their victims aren't allowed to judge from the outside whether they've "really" been saved (although they're free to judge from the outside themselves when it suits them.) Even with the contradiction, it's difficult for me to consider these "not real" Christians when such zeal is usually one of the few consistent things about them. And I've found interpretations of the same story that go in the opposite direction, in the guilt-and-shame-you-will-never-suffer-as-much-as-you-make-baby-Jesus-suffer direction, which isn't (in my arrogant opinion) helpful either?


Two things.  I don't judge a belief system by it's followers.  Too many folks have derived too much power by turning a belief system into a way to control the masses.  Many folks don't want to spend the time delving into the deeper mysteries and many just plain aren't there yet in their soul journey.  So when folks forget that they are spiritual beings, it's easy for the power-hungry to take advantage of spiritual teachings and manipulate unwary folks.

The second thing revolves around the term, "sin."  I read all of Tony Hillerman's books (I'm not big on detective stories, but I loved learning about the Navajo in a story manner) and learned about "hozho."

I've started to think of "sin" as being out of "hozho."  (A Dine term for beauty, harmony, and order.)  "Sin" isn't about breaking laws. it's about being out of balance.

Quote
If considering Jesus a demonstration of supernatural empathy helps you to cope with energy loss, identifying with that figure, then that's definitely one interpretation I'd add to chew on. It's one I hadn't heard before, and it's interesting--and if it helps you, it could help other empaths. :)


The epiphany was about how to reconcile the idea of Jesus dying for one's sins and how the hell could anyone do that?  But if you look at the idea of sin being out of hozho and empaths being able to absorb energy, the idea of Jesus being the Ultimate Empath can now make sense.  He gave all to create a way for the sins to be sucked down into the Earth and then come out renewed and balanced.  The Dine believe something very similar.

Quote
My condolences to your friends losing their mothers, too, and best wishes to your fortitude and recovery.


Thank you for that!!  I really just brought that up to show how draining it is on a small scale.  Then when you escalate it to the magnitude of Jesus "dying for our sins," I can now get it.

~Gnowann

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 10:05:26 pm »
Quote from: Yei;188087
I don't think that's what 'sin' is. 'Sin' is a hard thing to explain because different groups have different interpretations. But generally, sin is a transgression against the will of God. The only way to expunge 'sin' is through forgiveness, which is only possible by accepting Jesus Christ. This means that the biggest sin of all, by default, is not being Christian, as only a Christian can actually do this.

When it comes to Jesus's death, it has little to do with concepts like 'Empath' and 'Energy' which are modern concepts not aligned with ancient Christianity.

 
I don't think you can go against the will of God.  Thou Art God.  I raised my son by misquoting Jesus:  Love God and Love Your Neighbor as Yourself.  This is the whole of the Law.

I've had trouble all my life trying to understand the idea of Jesus dying for my sins.  It made no sense on any level, spiritually or intellectually.  And you can't be accepted as a Christian unless you agree on this tenet.

Going back to my previous post, the Dine don't believe in punishment, per se.  It's about bringing someone back into hozho.  Back into balance.

And I think that's what Jesus did.  He created a way for folks to come back into hozho.

Mind you, and I said it above, folks will take advantage.  If you want to sway the masses, tell them something is breaking the law.  If you want to control the masses, tell them that something is a sin against God.

But when you look beneath all this and read the words and contemplate and compare it with your own experiences, there is just so much there!  If a Christian ever asks me again if I believe Jesus died for our sins, I can honestly smile and say, yes.

~Gnowann

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 10:19:15 pm »
Quote from: Yei;188087
I don't think that's what 'sin' is. 'Sin' is a hard thing to explain because different groups have different interpretations.

Yep.  Here's a good explanation, imho:  "The Greek word for “sin” is hamartia, an archery term for 'missing the mark.' We could say that sin is not just making an error in judgment in a particular case, but missing the whole point of human life; not just the violation of a law, but an insult to a relationship with the One to whom we owe everything; not just a servant's failure to carry out a master's orders, but the ingratitude of a child to its parent.

The state of sin is a surrender of freedom; it is like being enslaved to a drug. Like a chemical addiction, sin can become an unshakable habit, so that every next time makes it easier to absolve ourselves of guilt. Even petty sins, if numerous enough, can immobilize us until they completely harden our hearts."  (source.)

The OP's description of the death on the cross seems to suggest that Christ was taking on all suffering and pain; which, while a nifty idea, isn't exactly the same.

Quote
When it comes to Jesus's death, it has little to do with concepts like 'Empath' and 'Energy' which are modern concepts not aligned with ancient Christianity.
Yeah, pretty much.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 10:22:37 pm by MadZealot »
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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 10:22:15 pm »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;188089
I am not an expert on Christian mysticism, so I'm not even gonna get into that. But I think this theory hinges an awful lot on what 'sin' actually is.

I mean, in some denominations as soon as you're born you are considered a sinful creature. (As I understand it, that's why limbo is filled with unbaptized babies.)

Your definition of sin is not traditional, but I'm not much bothered by that. I guess what I'm curious about is what sins would be considered "those things  in us that create disharmony." Like, okay, murder is not very harmonious, but what about say, blasphemy?

 
I hear you.  And I've struggled with this idea all my life.

I'm now looking at sin kind of like the word "discipline."  Discipline means to teach, not to punish.  That's where disciple comes from.  When you discipline a child or a dog or a convict or whomever, you're teaching them, not punishing them.  Sometimes a good whack on the fanny might be needed to teach a child not to run into the road.  It's not a punishment, it's a strong way to get the child's attention so s/he won't do it again.

If you reread your bible, change "sin" to "out of balance."  I think you'll find a whole new interpretation.

As far as what sin means, I'm still not the expert on that one.  I think it means to not be what your God-self is wanting/supposed to be.  This is where my pagan beliefs help me connect the ideas.  Sin is being out of hozho.

Again, I'm trying to delve deeper and go to the source to answer my questions about Christianity.  I'd love to find a Christian who's more knowledgeable than I am but open-minded enough to explore these ideas of mine.  I think there are mystics out there who could and I'm pagan enough to believe that when the time is right, the teacher will come!

~Gnowann

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 10:24:12 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188100
"Sin" isn't about breaking laws. it's about being out of balance.

 
That's.... damned good.
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Gnowan

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 10:42:03 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;188106
Yep.  Here's a good explanation, imho:  "The Greek word for “sin” is hamartia, an archery term for 'missing the mark.' We could say that sin is not just making an error in judgment in a particular case, but missing the whole point of human life; not just the violation of a law, but an insult to a relationship with the One to whom we owe everything; not just a servant's failure to carry out a master's orders, but the ingratitude of a child to its parent.


I like your definition of sin as "missing the mark."  That comes close to what I'm trying to say.  The rest, I think, is man's words and a way to manipulate the people.

Quote
The state of sin is a surrender of freedom; it is like being enslaved to a drug. Like a chemical addiction, sin can become an unshakable habit, so that every next time makes it easier to absolve ourselves of guilt. Even petty sins, if numerous enough, can immobilize us until they completely harden our hearts."  (source.)


This is completely contrary to the idea I'm trying to express.  In my idea, I'm not interested in how the Powers That Be are defining sin, I'm trying to go to the source and find something that makes sense to the main tenet of Christianity that Jesus died for our sins.

Quote
The OP's description of the death on the cross seems to suggest that Christ was taking on all suffering and pain; which, while a nifty idea, isn't exactly the same.


This isn't what I'm saying at all.  There will always be suffering and pain and that's not what I now am thinking Jesus did.  The idea of Jesus being able to take that suffering and pain and bring it back (the Resurrection) so that we can live in a state of balance, that's the idea I'm exploring.

Pain and suffering shouldn't be deleted from our lives, but it does need to be balanced.  That's why I've started playing with the idea of hozho and sin.  I believe sin has been used in a manipulative manner, so it's hard to hear the word to try to understand what's really being said without the overtones.

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 10:54:27 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188111
I believe sin has been used in a manipulative manner, so it's hard to hear the word to try to understand what's really being said without the overtones.


:NodNod:  Yep.  Mostly used nowadays in value-judgment terms, as in "sin = bad".  Not saying it isn't, but 'missing the mark' in the original texts suggests something a little more nuanced.  Not living up to one's potential, perhaps.
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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 11:07:53 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188111
This is completely contrary to the idea I'm trying to express.  In my idea, I'm not interested in how the Powers That Be are defining sin, I'm trying to go to the source and find something that makes sense to the main tenet of Christianity that Jesus died for our sins.

 
There are actually a number of Christologies, of which penal substitutionary atonement is merely one.
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2008/03/putting-in-good-word-for-penal.html talks about the importance of not overdoing the 'died for our sins' spiel.  Beck revisits it in
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2016/03/learning-to-live-with-penal.html to note a circumstance in which it is in fact useful and healing to people.

Here's Beck's post on Christus Victor:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2014/10/christus-victor-and-progressive.html

Oh hey I found an overview of atonement stuff:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2014/10/christus-victor-and-progressive.html

(In case it isn't obvious, I kind of like Richard Beck and his theological exegesis; he's also the only blogger I actively read who talks about theories of the Crucifixion at all, which means he's my go-to for that.)

Other relevant posts:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2011/04/musings-about-universalism-part-10.html
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2012/06/going-outside-camp-holiness-of-standing.html
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2006/10/why-i-am-universalist-part-3-gift-of.html
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2010/06/george-macdonald-justice-hell-and.html
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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2016, 11:15:29 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;188113
:NodNod:  Yep.  Mostly used nowadays in value-judgment terms, as in "sin = bad".  Not saying it isn't, but 'missing the mark' in the original texts suggests something a little more nuanced.  Not living up to one's potential, perhaps.

 
Okay, given this post came through while I was composing my other one I failed to resist going through Beck's blog looking for posts on sin, and I found this one:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2007/09/friday-fun-can-you-sin-on-deserted.html

And this is making me all full of thinky thoughts about some discussions I've seen elsenet and I just wanted to share.
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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 11:34:39 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;188115
Okay, given this post came through while I was composing my other one I failed to resist going through Beck's blog looking for posts on sin, and I found this one:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2007/09/friday-fun-can-you-sin-on-deserted.html

And this is making me all full of thinky thoughts about some discussions I've seen elsenet and I just wanted to share.

 

Ooo.  Thanks, DH.  I'm gonna grab my tablet and retire to the Thinking Chair.
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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 01:09:20 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;188113
:NodNod:  Yep.  Mostly used nowadays in value-judgment terms, as in "sin = bad".  Not saying it isn't, but 'missing the mark' in the original texts suggests something a little more nuanced.  Not living up to one's potential, perhaps.

 
You're right.  sin=bad  and discipline=punishment  and not living up to potential is a sin and that's mostly because of fear and doubt and not recognizing the Holy Spirit which is God within (I'm using Christian terms to try to further my understanding of this idea I'm playing with).  I don't really have a handle on this yet, but I'm trying to use the terms a Christian would, to show that what's written is not contrary to what I'm trying to say.

Going back to my original post, when I open myself up to others, I'm like that mute green chick from the original Star Trek.  I haven't learned how to shield properly or how to channel that negative energy into the Earth because I don't feel it's right to pass the buck.  So I absorb it and I don't know what to do with it.

Jesus found a way to take those huge amounts of energy into himself and basically punched a never-ending hole into the cosmos, using his own life, to create a font for the rest of us to use, to bathe in, to absorb the painful extra energy that folks don't know what to do with, so we can continue.

Again, just playing with ideas here.  I bring to myself those folks who are in crisis.  I don't know how to say "no,"  so I absorb bad energy and I get sucked on for the good stuff.  And I feel guilty for trying to use the earth because it's not the earth's problem.

I just think think that Jesus may have created a way for us to release those "sins", those imbalances.  He didn't die for my sins.  He died.  Folks killed him, but as an Uber Empath, he left a permanent vortex whereby folks could drop off the crap, have it be absorbed, and the person can walk away.

Not everyone is a mystic.  This, perhaps, is a way that Jesus gave to the People to help them continue.

*Just thinking out loud in this post.....*

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