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Author Topic: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins  (Read 8657 times)

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2016, 10:32:06 pm »
Quote from: Yei;188189
But the idea I was denying wasn't Theosis but Apotheosis. I am under the impression that the two are different.


They may or may not be the case, but you seemed to deny Theosis when you wrote:

Quote
Second, I am not God, and in Christianity only the Trinity is divine.


By Theosis some Nicene Christians, especially Eastern Orthodox, mean a process by which human beings become divine by grace. There will still be a distinction between the Holy Trinity (in the Nicene sense) and the deified (or divinized) human beings, in that particular, that the Holy Trinity is divine by eternity (with no beginning), while human beings have been made divine in time (with a beginning), but the same distinction is present in the definition of apotheosis, isn't it?

Quote from: Yei;188189
You're right. I must have confused him with someone else. I wanted to reference Arius because he is an example of someone who was influential politically and theologically, but whose views are definitely not mainstream.


Not influential in a lasting way. The Arian Church in Burgundy fell out of fashion after 516. The Arian Church in Visigothic Spain left Arianism in 589, and merged with the Catholic Church. A trickle of Arian converts to Catholicism in Lombardy began in 591, increased in 653, and the Arian Church in Lombardy was practically extinct by 712.

A funny thing with the Lombard Kingdom is, that there were not only two Christian denominations within the kingdom (Catholic and Arian), but 553-698 three: The Patriarchate of Aquileia shared the Catholic acceptance of the Council of Chalcedon, but, unlike the Catholic Church, it held theological writings by Theodorus of Mopsuestia, Ibas of Edessa and Theodoretus of Cyrus to be orthodox. The Patriarchate of Aquileia merged with the Catholic Church in 698.

Quote from: Yei;188189
Just because someone is influential does not mean that all their ideas are universally/directly accepted.


That's right. Origen spring to mind. The church has retained some, but not all, from him. The Cappadocians loved the doctrine of Origen, and took it for granted, but Justinian hated it, and tried to abolish it. Due to St. Maximus, an adapted form of Origenism was transmitted to posterity. Breviaries in the Western church abound of biblical commentaries by Origen, and in the East writings by the Origenist Evagrius of Pontus have been distributed as long quotes in the anthology Philokalia.

Quote from: Yei;188189
Then again, Christian churches are usually led by educated individuals (priests) who can bring this information to their congregations. Since I am not Christian I'm not sure of how this process works though, and it is probably impossible to generalise anyway thanks to the diversity of Christianity.


The degree to which Anglicans and Lutherans are aware of the similarity between their doctrines and the Eastern Orthodox ones on this point, or sympathise with this similarity (Some do not!), varies, of course. Rediscoveries of theological ideas trickle down slowly from universities and conferences to local parishes.

Sydney Anglicans will not likely appreciate Allchin's observations, and will probably refuse assent to the elements of Theosis present within 17th and 18th century Anglicanism.

Likewise, some Lutherans will probably not appreciate the Finnish interpretation of Luther. On the other hand, many Anglicans and Lutherans have received these findings with deep interest and sympathy.

Yei

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2016, 05:15:30 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;188198
They may or may not be the case, but you seemed to deny Theosis when you wrote:


Alas, I wasn't even thinking about Theosis when I wrote/typed that.

Quote
By Theosis some Nicene Christians, especially Eastern Orthodox, mean a process by which human beings become divine by grace. There will still be a distinction between the Holy Trinity (in the Nicene sense) and the deified (or divinized) human beings, in that particular, that the Holy Trinity is divine by eternity (with no beginning), while human beings have been made divine in time (with a beginning), but the same distinction is present in the definition of apotheosis, isn't it?


I thought that the difference was that Theosis was seen as part of a union with God and occurs, as you say, by Grace, which is not the case for Apotheosis. Though now that I think about it Theosis might have multiple interpretations that I am unaware of or have forgotten.

Quote
Not influential in a lasting way. The Arian Church in Burgundy fell out of fashion after 516. The Arian Church in Visigothic Spain left Arianism in 589, and merged with the Catholic Church. A trickle of Arian converts to Catholicism in Lombardy began in 591, increased in 653, and the Arian Church in Lombardy was practically extinct by 712.


Something does not have to last long to be influential, or have lasting consequences. And sometimes, I wonder what the lasting impact of early theological controversies had on the Church in later eras. But that is just speculation.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2016, 12:49:54 pm »
Quote from: Yei;188239
I thought that the difference was that Theosis was seen as part of a union with God ...


Union, yes, but not dissolution of the personhood of each human person deified. As in apotheosis, each person keep their personhood.

Quote from: Yei;188239
And sometimes, I wonder what the lasting impact of early theological controversies had on the Church in later eras. But that is just speculation.


Liberal Protestant Christianity sometimes seem to be forgetful about the early theological controversies. Some forms of Conservative Protestant Christianity have a hard work trying to reconcile their defiance of Tradition as something valuable with a doctrine which is actually based on the same Tradition. I would, however, say that the effects of the early theological controversies are still alive among Anglicans/Episcopalians, Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Ecumenical dialogue between these during the last 50 years have drawn them closer to each other than before.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2016, 01:04:20 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188062
I'm not Christian, but I've been spending time lately working on the Christian mysteries.

For someone, who comes to the Christian mysteries from a Pagan background, and who tries to avoid dogma, I suspect that the written works by Louis Claude de Saint Martin, Ivan Vladimirovitch Lopukhin, Karl von Eckartshausen, Arthur Edward Waite and Dion Fortune could be interesting reading.

Also take a look at Daniel Cramer (tr. Fiona Tait, Intr. Adam McLean): The Rosicrucian Emblems of Daniel Cramer (Grand Rapids 1991)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 01:04:51 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Yei

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2016, 05:32:32 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;188420
Union, yes, but not dissolution of the personhood of each human person deified. As in apotheosis, each person keep their personhood.


Who said anything about personhood? I was thinking of power, as in: where does the power to do this come from?

Quote
Liberal Protestant Christianity sometimes seem to be forgetful about the early theological controversies. Some forms of Conservative Protestant Christianity have a hard work trying to reconcile their defiance of Tradition as something valuable with a doctrine which is actually based on the same Tradition. I would, however, say that the effects of the early theological controversies are still alive among Anglicans/Episcopalians, Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Ecumenical dialogue between these during the last 50 years have drawn them closer to each other than before.

 
When I read the last line, I thought of this:


Gnowan

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 01:55:32 am »
Quote from: Gnowan;188062
I had an epiphany tonight.

 
I posted this as a "gut epiphany" thing.  Y'all brought in so many references, which is a good thing.  I followed some, got lost on others.

Sometimes I think we complicate stuff too much.  Sometimes I think we look to others'  insights too much.  Sometimes, I think we just need to simplify and look to ourselves for the answers.

Again, I'm a panentheist and I believe in All in God and Thou Art God.  I don't think we have to look to Bob's published insights.  I believe we each have the answers and I don't need to be verified by Bob.

~Gnowann

Bear-craft

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Re: Jesus as an Empath and Dying for Our Sins
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2016, 09:18:43 pm »
Quote from: Gnowan;188062
I had an epiphany tonight.

Here's the epiphany!  I think Jesus was an empath with a capitol E!  I never understood the notion that Jesus died for our sins.  (What sins!  Babies don't sin, etc.!)  After sucking in a few people's energy and getting sucked out, which is draining as hell--(I have three close women in my life losing their mothers right now, and I can hardly keep my eyes open), I think I understand the concept of Jesus dying for our sins.  But on a huge gigantomungous scale!

Jesus created a vortex, of sorts, with his own life, that can suck the sins (those things in us that create disharmony) from us and bring back the energy in a harmonious way.

He took that pain (I can't even begin to imagine taking on that much) down into the Earth and came back cleansed and renewed and the vortex remains.

 
Very interesting concept!! I think it's worth exploring more. You should write on it!

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