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Author Topic: Found an old religion have questions  (Read 1721 times)

MongolianCow

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Found an old religion have questions
« on: March 11, 2016, 12:38:38 pm »
Sorry if title was spelt wrong but I stumbled across a new( technically old) pagan religion, called  Semitic paganism and have questions on their general beliefs major gods and goddesses and rituals, the only I know is Athar, a war God I believe. Thank you for your time
Best wish,
A MongolianCow

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2016, 01:35:07 pm »
Quote from: MongolianCow;187900
Sorry if title was spelt wrong but I stumbled across a new( technically old) pagan religion, called  Semitic paganism ...


It has been defunct since 1033, when the temple of the city-state Harran was demolished, so the best word for modern reconstructions (since the 1960s or 1970s) is probably retro.

Quote from: MongolianCow;187900
... and have questions on their general beliefs major gods and goddesses and rituals, the only I know is Athar, a war God I believe. Thank you for your time
Best wish,
A MongolianCow


West-semitic religion changed continuously during its millennia-old history. The religion of Ebla 3000-1600 BCE wasn't entirely identical to the religion of Ugarit 1800-1190 BCE. It was practiced from an unknown point in time in the entire region now consisting of Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Cyprus, the kingdom of Jordan, and southern Turkey (known as Coele-Syria in Hellenist and Roman times). It spread to what is now Tunisia and southern Spain in the 8th century BCE, but it took different expressions among different kingdoms, city-states and tribes.

Among Hebrews, Samaritans and Jews the religion became gradually and increasingly monotheistic, although these religions share common roots with the other West-semitic religions.

After the Graeco-Macedonian conquest in the 330s and 320s BCE, west-semitic religion became increasingly hellenized.

From the 380s CE onwards, it became a criminal offense to perform public sacrifices within the borders of the Roman Empire, but they continued outside the Empire. The Sasanian Empire of Persia practiced various policies regarding non-Zoroastrian religions: Under some rulers, West-semitic Paganism was tolerated, under other rulers, it was persecuted.

The city Harran, in which West-semitic, Mesopotamian and Hellenist religion mixed and survived, adopted the Hermetic scriptures as their sacred scripture, and could thus claim to be inhabited by one of the Peoples of the Book. For some centuries, Harran was the only surviving pagan city under Moslem (or Christian) rule.

Each city or tribe had its own protector-deity: Chemosh was more popular among the Moabites, than among other cities or tribes, but the existence of other deities in the pantheon was acknowledged.

Philo of Byblus claimed, that an ancient writer, called Sanchuniathon, described the pantheon and theogony of Coele-Syria, especially Lebanon. El is described as the king of the gods. El married three of his sisters: Ashera/Athirat/Astronoƫ, Ashtart/Astarte, and Baal Tis/Baalat Gebal/Derketo/Atargatis. After a victory against Sea, Death and Athar, the stormgod Baal was given lots of executive power by El. Anat was a warrior-goddess, who assisted Baal. A number of young gods in Syrian myths died, and in some cases rose again: Melqart, Adonis, Tammuz, Eshmun. These deites are probably the most important ones of West-semitic paganism, but there were hundreds of others.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2016, 05:32:13 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187903
It has been defunct since 1033, when the temple of the city-state Harran was demolished, so the best word for modern reconstructions (since the 1960s or 1970s) is probably retro.



West-semitic religion changed continuously during its millennia-old history. The religion of Ebla 3000-1600 BCE wasn't entirely identical to the religion of Ugarit 1800-1190 BCE. It was practiced from an unknown point in time in the entire region now consisting of Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Cyprus, the kingdom of Jordan, and southern Turkey (known as Coele-Syria in Hellenist and Roman times). It spread to what is now Tunisia and southern Spain in the 8th century BCE, but it took different expressions among different kingdoms, city-states and tribes.

Among Hebrews, Samaritans and Jews the religion became gradually and increasingly monotheistic, although these religions share common roots with the other West-semitic religions.

After the Graeco-Macedonian conquest in the 330s and 320s BCE, west-semitic religion became increasingly hellenized.

From the 380s CE onwards, it became a criminal offense to perform public sacrifices within the borders of the Roman Empire, but they continued outside the Empire. The Sasanian Empire of Persia practiced various policies regarding non-Zoroastrian religions: Under some rulers, West-semitic Paganism was tolerated, under other rulers, it was persecuted.

The city Harran, in which West-semitic, Mesopotamian and Hellenist religion mixed and survived, adopted the Hermetic scriptures as their sacred scripture, and could thus claim to be inhabited by one of the Peoples of the Book. For some centuries, Harran was the only surviving pagan city under Moslem (or Christian) rule.

Each city or tribe had its own protector-deity: Chemosh was more popular among the Moabites, than among other cities or tribes, but the existence of other deities in the pantheon was acknowledged.

Philo of Byblus claimed, that an ancient writer, called Sanchuniathon, described the pantheon and theogony of Coele-Syria, especially Lebanon. El is described as the king of the gods. El married three of his sisters: Ashera/Athirat/Astronoƫ, Ashtart/Astarte, and Baal Tis/Baalat Gebal/Derketo/Atargatis. After a victory against Sea, Death and Athar, the stormgod Baal was given lots of executive power by El. Anat was a warrior-goddess, who assisted Baal. A number of young gods in Syrian myths died, and in some cases rose again: Melqart, Adonis, Tammuz, Eshmun. These deites are probably the most important ones of West-semitic paganism, but there were hundreds of others.
Very interesting.
What can you tell me about the origins of monotheism among the the Jews? I've read that Freud postulated that there may have been a connection to the Amarna cult in Egypt - the discovery of Ahkenaten & Nefertiti & the Aten was fresh at the time, & Freud thought that perhaps there was some possibility there, especially since some of the incised inscriptions at the solar temple bore a remarkable resemblance to passages in the  Old Testament. Have you read anything about this? It is interesting that it was w/in a few centuries of the Amarna cult having been suppressed & driven out of Egypt that a people called by the Egyptians "Habiru'' made their appearance in Palestine.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 05:33:16 pm by DIASPORA-1963 »
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2016, 06:47:34 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187936
Very interesting.
What can you tell me about the origins of monotheism among the the Jews? I've read that Freud postulated that there may have been a connection to the Amarna cult in Egypt - the discovery of Ahkenaten & Nefertiti & the Aten was fresh at the time, & Freud thought that perhaps there was some possibility there, especially since some of the incised inscriptions at the solar temple bore a remarkable resemblance to passages in the  Old Testament. Have you read anything about this? It is interesting that it was w/in a few centuries of the Amarna cult having been suppressed & driven out of Egypt that a people called by the Egyptians "Habiru'' made their appearance in Palestine.


The resemblances to passages in the Old Testament you mention, is probably the similarities observed between Akhenaten's Hymn to the Sun and Psalm 104 (Heb.)/103 (LXX).* The time gap between Akhenaten (1340s BCE) and attested Hebrew history (870s/850s BCE) is rather long. Nobody knows how a revised version of Akhenaten's hymn ended up in Jerusalem.

You are correct, in that the old Egyptian word Habiru probably is related to the word Hebrews, but we can't be entirely sure, of course. Habiru wasn't necessarily a term initially referring to an ethnicity. It could initially have referred to nomadic groups outside society, regardless their particular language or religion, but some ancestors of the later Hebrews probably belonged to some groups of Habiru.

The problem with Hebrew** history is, that we don't have any independent historical sources to the history of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah before the middle of the 9th century: The black obelisk of Shalmaneser III and the Mesha stele. Before that time, it is impossible to know what is history and what is myth.

There was a middle stage of aggressive henotheism before a fully developed monotheism emerged. The activity of the prophet Hosea is ascribed to have taken place in the Kingdom of Israel in the decades immediately before its destruction in 720 BCE. In chapter 23 of the Second Book of Kings (edited more*** than a century after the reign of Josiah) King Josiah of the Kingdom of Judah (c. 640 - c. 610 BCE) was alleged to have destroyed several pieces of religious art, perceived as incongenial to 'pure' Yahwistic henotheism: A tree associated with the goddess Ashera (Mrs. God), a statue of the snake-spirit Nehushtan, statues of horses dedicated to the Sun, and several lesser altars in Jerusalem and other towns and villages.

By historians, the book of Isaiah is usually considered to have emerged in three stages:
  • Chapters 1-39, from some time in the range 744 BCE to 701 BCE or later
  • Chapters 40-55, from some time in the 540s BCE or later
  • Chapters 56-66, from 515 BCE or later


The chapters 45 and 46 in the Book of Isaiah are most probably the earliest expressions of a fully developed Jewish monotheism. That dosn't mean that all and every Jew of that time or afterwards were adherents of this monotheistic turn: A Jewish temple existed on the Egyptian island Elephantine in the 5th century, and YHWH was not the only deity worshipped there. Ashera and Betel seem to have been worshipped there beside YHWH, but the Elephantine temple seem to have been abandoned around 350 BCE.


* Psalms are ennumerated in different ways in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic versions. Jewish, Protestant and Anglican/Episcopalian Bibles follow the Hebrew way of counting, while Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles follow the Greek way of counting. Since users on this forum is less likely to have an Aramaic Bible ready, I haven't included that way of counting here, but it is used by the Assyrian Church, Church of the East, the Syro-Chaldaean Church in India, the Syriac-Orthodox Church, the Malankara Syrian Church, and (I think) the Maronite Church.

** Here I use the word Hebrews for the populations out of which citizens of Israel, citizens of Judah, Samaritans, Karaite Jews, Rabbinical Jews, early Christians (and possibly Mandaeans, too) later branched off

*** Exactly how much more than a century is a matter for disussions.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2016, 09:00:43 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187950
The resemblances to passages in the Old Testament you mention, is probably the similarities observed between Akhenaten's Hymn to the Sun and Psalm 104 (Heb.)/103 (LXX).* The time gap between Akhenaten (1340s BCE) and attested Hebrew history (870s/850s BCE) is rather long. Nobody knows how a revised version of Akhenaten's hymn ended up in Jerusalem.

You are correct, in that the old Egyptian word Habiru probably is related to the word Hebrews, but we can't be entirely sure, of course. Habiru wasn't necessarily a term initially referring to an ethnicity. It could initially have referred to nomadic groups outside society, regardless their particular language or religion, but some ancestors of the later Hebrews probably belonged to some groups of Habiru.

The problem with Hebrew** history is, that we don't have any independent historical sources to the history of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah before the middle of the 9th century: The black obelisk of Shalmaneser III and the Mesha stele. Before that time, it is impossible to know what is history and what is myth.

There was a middle stage of aggressive henotheism before a fully developed monotheism emerged. The activity of the prophet Hosea is ascribed to have taken place in the Kingdom of Israel in the decades immediately before its destruction in 720 BCE. In chapter 23 of the Second Book of Kings (edited more*** than a century after the reign of Josiah) King Josiah of the Kingdom of Judah (c. 640 - c. 610 BCE) was alleged to have destroyed several pieces of religious art, perceived as incongenial to 'pure' Yahwistic henotheism: A tree associated with the goddess Ashera (Mrs. God), a statue of the snake-spirit Nehushtan, statues of horses dedicated to the Sun, and several lesser altars in Jerusalem and other towns and villages.

By historians, the book of Isaiah is usually considered to have emerged in three stages:
  • Chapters 1-39, from some time in the range 744 BCE to 701 BCE or later
  • Chapters 40-55, from some time in the 540s BCE or later
  • Chapters 56-66, from 515 BCE or later


The chapters 45 and 46 in the Book of Isaiah are most probably the earliest expressions of a fully developed Jewish monotheism. That dosn't mean that all and every Jew of that time or afterwards were adherents of this monotheistic turn: A Jewish temple existed on the Egyptian island Elephantine in the 5th century, and YHWH was not the only deity worshipped there. Ashera and Betel seem to have been worshipped there beside YHWH, but the Elephantine temple seem to have been abandoned around 350 BCE.


* Psalms are ennumerated in different ways in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic versions. Jewish, Protestant and Anglican/Episcopalian Bibles follow the Hebrew way of counting, while Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles follow the Greek way of counting. Since users on this forum is less likely to have an Aramaic Bible ready, I haven't included that way of counting here, but it is used by the Assyrian Church, Church of the East, the Syro-Chaldaean Church in India, the Syriac-Orthodox Church, the Malankara Syrian Church, and (I think) the Maronite Church.

** Here I use the word Hebrews for the populations out of which citizens of Israel, citizens of Judah, Samaritans, Karaite Jews, Rabbinical Jews, early Christians (and possibly Mandaeans, too) later branched off

*** Exactly how much more than a century is a matter for disussions.

 Very interesting. Thank you.
Joseph Campbell did say that "Mrs God" was present but suppressed in the Old Testament: she was the Earth, from which the sky-god Yahweh fashioned Adam ... My knowledge here is very - "light" - but I am deeply interested ... I have an INTP rating on the Meyers-Briggs personality assessment, so forgive me if I tend to draw conclusions ... I don't mean them to be "conclusions" - they are speculations presented as questions ... Now, all of these things are jumbled and confused in the mists of time - certainly the big rock that Muslims hold holy was once a pagan idol - but are there any pagan sources that mention the people whom we know as the "Jews" being polytheistic? When did the Jewish monotheistic identity emerge? Maybe not by Alexander's time but certainly before Caesar's. Is it T that Ben-Gurion sent the Israeli archaeological survey out to find the "title-deed" to Israel? If so - what was the result of the survey? I don't think that it was - good ...
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RecycledBenedict

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2016, 09:12:04 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187958
...  but are there any pagan sources that mention the people whom we know as the "Jews" being polytheistic? When did the Jewish monotheistic identity emerge? Maybe not by Alexander's time but certainly before Caesar's.


The sources about polytheistic Jews at Elephantine are Jewish sources.

As I wrote in my former message, a fully emerged Jewish monotheism was present in Isaiah chapters 45 and 46, not written before the 540s BCE, but possibly later. The last traces of Jewish polytheism in Egypt disappeared about 350 BCE (before Alexander). The interpretation of what Judaism was supposed to mean was probably radicalized in the 160s BCE, when an attempt by the Syro-Macedonian king Antiochus IV Epiphanes to merge Judaism with Zeus-worship backfired, and led to a religio-political revolt.

Sorry if I am incomprehensible now. It is 3am in the night, and I suffer from insomnia.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2016, 09:53:46 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187960
The sources about polytheistic Jews at Elephantine are Jewish sources.

As I wrote in my former message, a fully emerged Jewish monotheism was present in Isaiah chapters 45 and 46, not written before the 540s BCE, but possibly later. The last traces of Jewish polytheism in Egypt disappeared about 350 BCE (before Alexander). The interpretation of what Judaism was supposed to mean was probably radicalized in the 160s BCE, when an attempt by the Syro-Macedonian king Antiochus IV Epiphanes to merge Judaism with Zeus-worship backfired, and led to a religio-political revolt.

Sorry if I am incomprehensible now. It is 3am in the night, and I suffer from insomnia.

No, no - it's just that you know the material much better than I do. My knowledge is very sketchy, so I do not hold the details together as well as you do. When it comes to mathematics, I can pick bits of fly shit out of black pepper b/c I am a mathematician - but I am not an historian, so I do not focus so well. I thank you for your help ... What motivated Jewish monotheism, I wonder? It seems psychologically damaging, if you ask me ... What are your thoughts?
MARK aka CELLVLANVS MAGVS
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DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2016, 09:55:36 pm »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187962
No, no - it's just that you know the material much better than I do. My knowledge is very sketchy, so I do not hold the details together as well as you do. When it comes to mathematics, I can pick bits of fly shit out of black pepper b/c I am a mathematician - but I am not an historian, so I do not focus so well. I thank you for your help ... What motivated Jewish monotheism, I wonder? It seems psychologically damaging, if you ask me ... What are your thoughts?

 
Oh, yes - I meant more - a Jewish national identity v a religious one ...
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MongolianCow

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2016, 02:00:08 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187950
The resemblances to passages in the Old Testament you mention, is probably the similarities observed between Akhenaten's Hymn to the Sun and Psalm 104 (Heb.)/103 (LXX).* The time gap between Akhenaten (1340s BCE) and attested Hebrew history (870s/850s BCE) is rather long. Nobody knows how a revised version of Akhenaten's hymn ended up in Jerusalem.

You are correct, in that the old Egyptian word Habiru probably is related to the word Hebrews, but we can't be entirely sure, of course. Habiru wasn't necessarily a term initially referring to an ethnicity. It could initially have referred to nomadic groups outside society, regardless their particular language or religion, but some ancestors of the later Hebrews probably belonged to some groups of Habiru.

The problem with Hebrew** history is, that we don't have any independent historical sources to the history of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah before the middle of the 9th century: The black obelisk of Shalmaneser III and the Mesha stele. Before that time, it is impossible to know what is history and what is myth.

There was a middle stage of aggressive henotheism before a fully developed monotheism emerged. The activity of the prophet Hosea is ascribed to have taken place in the Kingdom of Israel in the decades immediately before its destruction in 720 BCE. In chapter 23 of the Second Book of Kings (edited more*** than a century after the reign of Josiah) King Josiah of the Kingdom of Judah (c. 640 - c. 610 BCE) was alleged to have destroyed several pieces of religious art, perceived as incongenial to 'pure' Yahwistic henotheism: A tree associated with the goddess Ashera (Mrs. God), a statue of the snake-spirit Nehushtan, statues of horses dedicated to the Sun, and several lesser altars in Jerusalem and other towns and villages.

By historians, the book of Isaiah is usually considered to have emerged in three stages:
  • Chapters 1-39, from some time in the range 744 BCE to 701 BCE or later
  • Chapters 40-55, from some time in the 540s BCE or later
  • Chapters 56-66, from 515 BCE or later


The chapters 45 and 46 in the Book of Isaiah are most probably the earliest expressions of a fully developed Jewish monotheism. That dosn't mean that all and every Jew of that time or afterwards were adherents of this monotheistic turn: A Jewish temple existed on the Egyptian island Elephantine in the 5th century, and YHWH was not the only deity worshipped there. Ashera and Betel seem to have been worshipped there beside YHWH, but the Elephantine temple seem to have been abandoned around 350 BCE.


* Psalms are ennumerated in different ways in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic versions. Jewish, Protestant and Anglican/Episcopalian Bibles follow the Hebrew way of counting, while Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles follow the Greek way of counting. Since users on this forum is less likely to have an Aramaic Bible ready, I haven't included that way of counting here, but it is used by the Assyrian Church, Church of the East, the Syro-Chaldaean Church in India, the Syriac-Orthodox Church, the Malankara Syrian Church, and (I think) the Maronite Church.

** Here I use the word Hebrews for the populations out of which citizens of Israel, citizens of Judah, Samaritans, Karaite Jews, Rabbinical Jews, early Christians (and possibly Mandaeans, too) later branched off

*** Exactly how much more than a century is a matter for disussions.

 Very interesting but have hard time when you enter biblical stuff like 3 stages Isaiah emerged. Just hard to pick that part up.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2016, 07:40:35 am »
Quote from: MongolianCow;187974
Very interesting but have hard time when you enter biblical stuff like 3 stages Isaiah emerged. Just hard to pick that part up.


Isaiah is not unique. Many literary works came into being in an even more complicated way. That is often the case with group efforts.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2016, 08:04:45 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187962
No, no - it's just that you know the material much better than I do. My knowledge is very sketchy, so I do not hold the details together as well as you do. When it comes to mathematics, I can pick bits of fly shit out of black pepper b/c I am a mathematician - but I am not an historian, so I do not focus so well. I thank you for your help ... What motivated Jewish monotheism, I wonder? It seems psychologically damaging, if you ask me ... What are your thoughts?


I have now and then in the past on this forum maintained that the words 'polytheist' and 'monotheist' are less helpful than usually thought. Hinduism combine both. Allegedly 'monotheist' religions do have angels and saints, and allegedly 'polytheist' religions often have a First Cause of some sort, although in retirement in some mythologies.

In a vague sense of the word, was 'monotheism' in the air during the millennium BCE and during the first handful of centuries CE.

The leading state gods of Assyria and Babylonia, respectively - Ashur and Marduk - were seen and addressed as they were almighty. Egyptian religious thought tended to identify Egyptian deities with each other, and some deities - especially Amun, Isis and Retenutet-Tefnut - came to be regarded as THE creator or sum of all the others. Religion in India evolved from a focus on a 'polytheist' vedic pantheon into the 'monotheist' speculations in the Upanishads and the Brahma Sutra. Old Iranian religion evolved from a 'polytheist' worldview into a worldview alternately interpreted as 'monotheist' or dualist. Greek philosophers reflected over concepts such as The Form of Goodness (Plato), The Unmoved Mover (Aristotle) or the World Soul (Stoics).

The significant difference between Judaism and these parallel developments, was that Judaism rejected sacrifices to intermediate spirits and avatars, while these other 'monotheistic' developments permitted such sacrifices. While Greeks and Romans (and the Hittites long before them) thought that it was possible to identify deities from different linguistic areas with each other, and 'translate' them from one language to another, Judaism in most cases rejected such 'translation'.

I am myself a Pagan monotheist, who worships many gods. What's so strange with that?

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2016, 08:20:34 am »
Quote from: DIASPORA-1963;187958
Joseph Campbell did say that "Mrs God" was present but suppressed in the Old Testament: she was the Earth, from which the sky-god Yahweh fashioned Adam ...


In the texts excavated in Ugarit, Athirat seem to be associated with the sea, rather than the earth, but, 1300 years later, the sea-goddess function seem to have been moved to Atargatis.

DIASPORA-1963

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Re: Found an old religion have questions
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 02:22:31 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;187985
In the texts excavated in Ugarit, Athirat seem to be associated with the sea, rather than the earth, but, 1300 years later, the sea-goddess function seem to have been moved to Atargatis.

 
Well, I've been looking at this & waiting for the details ...
I'd not post about mathematics w/o giving enough to go on.
Sure, I could look it up - but that isn't fair. I've assumed the role of listener. I'm listening, waiting.
My knowledge of Sumeria is better than most, I admit. I've read Gilgamesh. I've a general idea of the history of Mesopotamia. But most of this was picked up in the course of studying mathematics - the formal study of which began in Mesopotamia.
I've read the names of many Sumerian deities - Gilgamesh, again. I was bored to tears by the story, I admit, but I got through it (I'm bored to tears by the Bible, too) ... I get excited by the back-stories to the mythologies but the myths themselves, well, I'd rather read poetry - and I detest poetry!
Yes, I know, you have insomnia - I don't, but, then, I sleep only 4 hours/day. More than that is too much.
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