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  1. #21
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yei View Post
    Ahh the natural reduction of a complex multi-faceted problem down to a single issue. How very ... white ... of you.

    I know how it goes. I'm white myself. But the reductionist thinking does not really work when it comes to social problems, which arise from a complex web of inter-relationships rather than from singular causes. In America the issue of race and poverty are so intimately connected that it is impossible to separate them. Trying to address one without the other is doomed to failure.
    Well, from what I see, the race issue is slowly dissolving at the bottom. Mixing of the races is so common among the poor that it won't be long before it will be hard to speak in terms of race when it comes to poor people. Then, what? I know, 1/2-white is still black. But, curious thing in America in the last 30 years - the rich are emulating the poor - blame that on Hip-Hop music. That's the first time in history that that has happened. What do you think about that?
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  2. #22
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by DIASPORA-1963 View Post
    MY contention is & remains: race is not the real issue. The real issue is poverty. Until people accept that poverty is the issue & that they are blinded by the other issues
    Not necessarily. Race is as real an issue as classism, the breakdown of racism can lead to the breakdown of economic injustices as well.

    There is no keystone, unlike what you propose, and that would be fine if economic justice were your personal priority and cause. If you dismiss the concerns of public sheeple as nonsense, though, that's dismissing a perspective that 1.) is important in its own small and subtle way to the grand scheme of things, if economics is even the grand scheme rather than an indicator of something or everything else and 2.) is important to an individual person who is...not you, but a different person, in a different position, with different concerns for their different life, and different means and different ways to just do something different.

    There's always going to be something more important to somebody else than what your personal concerns are, even though it's your personal concerns for the whole planet. Unless you're volunteering to manage someone else's passions and causes, it's not your responsibility to dispell "nonsense" that...isn't even nonsense, I'll argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIASPORA-1963 View Post
    While the public is concerned w/nonsense - sex, sexuality, ethnicity, religious "differences", race, racism, gender, abortion, school prayer, & a long list of other "hot button" favorites,
    Neurodiversity could be one of those hot buttons. If the way your mind works hasn't ever served as a threat to your income or quality of life, then you're higher functioning than I am! Bothering with nonsense such as neurodiversity tolerance and inclusivity leads to better systems for allocating human resources to more effective positions, which (I'm just guessing) leads to a better economy.

    So, I'd consider that as worthwhile a cause as economics, because these issues are all intersectional.

    sex, sexuality...gender...abortion
    These concepts can provide a speculative trajectory of demographics, the number of people in the next generation. If you look at the shape of a demographics chart, you can usually find the correlation to the economic condition of a nation.

    ethnicity, race, racism, school prayer
    Then there's the usefulness of specifying a nation, itself an ethnic palette, even as it encompasses ethnicities within itself as a nation. If you imagine that the global economy can be generalized with a single cause, unfortunately economies vary depending on currency, resources, and demographics (see above quoted and here.)

    Also note that religious narratives have been massively powerful political tools as much as they have been products of the cultural, political, and economic climate. It might be comfortable and natural to forget that, but these narratives would continue to have economic effects through the actions of people who adhere to them as members of a capitalist society.

    Or if you're proposing to dismantle capitalism and let's all live off the grid like wilderness survivalists...well, we've still got sustainability of natural environmental resources to worry about, as well as active challenges based on all of the above nonsenses you've listed, which should be rather difficult to dismiss as irrelevant when one is personally challenged on all of those fronts to even function, fit in, or belong as a human being, let alone an active agent to realizing the ideal.
    Last edited by Faemon; 8 Mar 2016 at 07:09 AM. Reason: typo
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  3. #23
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by DIASPORA-1963 View Post
    Well, from what I see, the race issue is slowly dissolving at the bottom. Mixing of the races is so common among the poor that it won't be long before it will be hard to speak in terms of race when it comes to poor people. Then, what? I know, 1/2-white is still black. But, curious thing in America in the last 30 years - the rich are emulating the poor - blame that on Hip-Hop music. That's the first time in history that that has happened. What do you think about that?
    Honestly, I don't think much of it. First of all, mixed race marriages and relationships are still a tiny minority of all relationships. Most people still date/marry people from their own ethnic group. Second of all, the most common form of intermarriage is between White males and Asian women. Black/White unions are fairly rare still, especially for White males and Black women. I'm not sure about the role of class in interracial marriage, but all I know suggests that it is most common in the middle-class, not the lower class.

    And what is the significance of this? What is it supposed to prove? It certainly does not prove that poverty is an issue separate from racism, as it does not demonstrate that these changes are the sole result of changing economic conditions. There is no proven causal relationship. To me, all it suggests is that White men like Asian women, not that I'm blaming them. And again, there are complex social reasons why.

    Besides, one should never believe that a trend will continue in the long-term. I mean, just six months ago, would anyone have predicted Trump?

  4. #24
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yei View Post
    Honestly, I don't think much of it. First of all, mixed race marriages and relationships are still a tiny minority of all relationships. Most people still date/marry people from their own ethnic group. Second of all, the most common form of intermarriage is between White males and Asian women. Black/White unions are fairly rare still, especially for White males and Black women. I'm not sure about the role of class in interracial marriage, but all I know suggests that it is most common in the middle-class, not the lower class.

    And what is the significance of this? What is it supposed to prove? It certainly does not prove that poverty is an issue separate from racism, as it does not demonstrate that these changes are the sole result of changing economic conditions. There is no proven causal relationship. To me, all it suggests is that White men like Asian women, not that I'm blaming them. And again, there are complex social reasons why.

    Besides, one should never believe that a trend will continue in the long-term. I mean, just six months ago, would anyone have predicted Trump?
    Not from what I see ... Now, I don't know what circles you move in, but I came from a comfy middle-class family, but, because of my mental illness & my autism, since my parents died, I have been exposed to the "System" - that is, most of the people I now know are poverty stricken; the majority have been in & out of jail, if not prison, many are drug-addicted, many live on less than $800/month - black & white - & they are mixing very well indeed. It is rare to find a white woman w/anything other than a black boyfriend. My sister, on the other hand, is rather well-to-do - her take is yours - the white men who want the delicate China-dolls for wives, the tiny waists, the wives who don't gain an ounce, the obedient wives who walk a yard behind them, only to wake up to find that they are married to women who have bound them w/silk chains that are tighter and harder to break than any iron shackles. A friend married one of these - he's on a treadmill to provide the mansion, the expensive clothes, the best schools for the children, the designer everything. Goodie for him because he didn't like fat American women. Sorry, at the lower end, blacks & whites are mixing rampantly.True, it's mostly white women & black men, but it goes the other way, too. The other day, in Neptune, I saw a black woman, 6'5" tall, at least 300 lbs, a solid wall of muscle, w/ a white man who was perhaps 5'4" tall, 150 lbs, & a complete nerd - they were very much in love. She actually picked him up to kiss him!
    Last edited by DIASPORA-1963; 8 Mar 2016 at 04:34 PM. Reason: typo
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  5. #25
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by DIASPORA-1963 View Post
    Not from what I see ... Now, I don't know what circles you move in, but I came from a comfy middle-class family, but, because of my mental illness & my autism, since my parents died, I have been exposed to the "System" - that is, most of the people I now know are poverty stricken; the majority have been in & out of jail, if not prison, many are drug-addicted, many live on less than $800/month - black & white - & they are mixing very well indeed. It is rare to find a white woman w/anything other than a black boyfriend. My sister, on the other hand, is rather well-to-do - her take is yours - the white men who want the delicate China-dolls for wives, the tiny waists, the wives who don't gain an ounce, the obedient wives who walk a yard behind them, only to wake up to find that they are married to women who have bound them w/silk chains that are tighter and harder to break than any iron shackles. A friend married one of these - he's on a treadmill to provide the mansion, the expensive clothes, the best schools for the children, the designer everything. Goodie for him because he didn't like fat American women. Sorry, at the lower end, blacks & whites are mixing rampantly.True, it's mostly white women & black men, but it goes the other way, too. The other day, in Neptune, I saw a black woman, 6'5" tall, at least 300 lbs, a solid wall of muscle, w/ a white man who was perhaps 5'4" tall, 150 lbs, & a complete nerd - they were very much in love. She actually picked him up to kiss him!
    Its not exactly rigorous statistical evidence though is it? Considering that the US population exceeds 300 million, it would be safe to say that what you see at your local DMV is nor representative.

  6. #26
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yei View Post
    Its not exactly rigorous statistical evidence though is it? Considering that the US population exceeds 300 million, it would be safe to say that what you see at your local DMV is nor representative.
    I am a mathematician, you know. I am aware that I have not presented a rigorous case; neither have you. We are merely chatting. I am presenting anecdotal evidence. By stating that you had seen statistics & then not citing them - well, sloppy ... I've seen my anecdotal evidence in NY, NJ, DE, MD VA, & FL. Densely populated states, by the by, NJ being the most densely populated state in the country - a good place to take a statistical sample, if one wishes to take a representative sample.
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  7. #27
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by DIASPORA-1963 View Post
    I am a mathematician, you know. I am aware that I have not presented a rigorous case; neither have you. We are merely chatting. I am presenting anecdotal evidence. By stating that you had seen statistics & then not citing them - well, sloppy ... I've seen my anecdotal evidence in NY, NJ, DE, MD VA, & FL. Densely populated states, by the by, NJ being the most densely populated state in the country - a good place to take a statistical sample, if one wishes to take a representative sample.
    I wasn't actually calling for statistics though. I was just pointing out that the USA is a big place, and that conditions vary. That, and considering how divisive US society can be I would hesitate to generalise between regions.

    To be honest, I'm not sure (good) statistics would even exist for this, because I am fairly certain you mean relationships, while statistics usually list marriages. In the end I have no idea what is going on. You may very well be right, and you probably are for areas you are familiar with. But it will take 10 years to find out, and then another 20 years to understand it.
    Last edited by Yei; 9 Mar 2016 at 03:26 PM. Reason: wanted to amend a comment

  8. #28
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yei View Post
    I wasn't actually calling for statistics though. I was just pointing out that the USA is a big place, and that conditions vary. That, and considering how divisive US society can be I would hesitate to generalise between regions.

    To be honest, I'm not sure (good) statistics would even exist for this, because I am fairly certain you mean relationships, while statistics usually list marriages. In the end I have no idea what is going on. You may very well be right, and you probably are for areas you are familiar with. But it will take 10 years to find out, and then another 20 years to understand it.
    Excellent guesses could be made, simply by surveying the DMV for addresses. It would give a rough idea of who is living w/whom. This could be supported by a survey of bail records - who bailed out whom, who visited whom in jail/prison, etc. In a short time, a large, detailed picture of inter-racial relationships would emerge. Perfect? No. But, as Carveth Read pointed out in his wonderful book, "Logic", if we waited for perfect, we would wait forever; we simply have to settle for less-than-perfect.
    Last edited by DIASPORA-1963; 9 Mar 2016 at 04:40 PM. Reason: typo
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  9. #29
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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by DIASPORA-1963 View Post
    Blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame-blame - ad infinitum ... & never a moment's pause in all of it. There isn't any race or ethnicity on this planet that hasn't worn a heavy set of heavy chains at one time or another - that hasn't been invaded, raped, enslaved, & seen many thousands slaughtered. NOT any race or ethnicity. & no two sets of poor people are willing & able to look at each other long enough to see that they have more in common than their apparent differences: poor Black people have more in common w/poor white people than they do w/rich Black people - period! & - get this - b/c some one person from a group treated you like crap does not entitle you automatically to treat any other member of that person's group like crap (exceptions - the KLAN, the NAZI's, people like that ... They're all assholes!). I'm SO SICK of this NONSENSE!
    DIASPORA-1963, Well said, sir. I agree.
    larry campbell

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    Re: So sick of this nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry View Post
    DIASPORA-1963, Well said, sir. I agree.
    All though there is so much negativity in the world I tend to focus on the positive.

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