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Author Topic: In the Shadow of America  (Read 11861 times)

Materialist

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In the Shadow of America
« on: February 15, 2016, 09:59:15 am »
Introduction: in the little over a decade I've been studying Neo-paganism-reading books written by practitioners, talking to them, I've noticed that ethnic identity is put on and taken off very freely. A conversation on this website revolves around this issue about every month: "I'm descended from all these ethnic groups [which are all European] and I'm trying to figure out which one I really identify with so I can pick the right form of Paganism to honor my ancestors with" is the gist of a lot of conversations I've come across.

Sometime, in this little over a decade, I realized that this was one of the items of white privilege: only a people who had not been subjected to ethnocide could be preoccupied with questions like these; and further, a people who had not been disenfranchised by laws written by European colonists and their descendants.

As with every other white privilege, it must be destroyed to liberate communities who have been classified "non-white" by the government and society to truly make an egalitarian country. I've wanted to express this to the neo-pagan community for a while, but didn't know how, until last night I found an article written by a sociologist at Harvard, who says what I feel very clearly.

Please, if you are a resident of the United States, of an old colonial family, or a European immigrant, or just plain white, I want you to read this, and think twice before asking yourself which ethnic flavor of Neo-paganism you should go with.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jc3962/COR/Racism/Racism_1.pdf

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 10:17:24 am »
Quote from: Materialist;186645
Introduction: in the little over a decade I've been studying Neo-paganism-reading books written by practitioners, talking to them, I've noticed that ethnic identity is put on and taken off very freely. A conversation on this website revolves around this issue about every month: "I'm descended from all these ethnic groups [which are all European] and I'm trying to figure out which one I really identify with so I can pick the right form of Paganism to honor my ancestors with" is the gist of a lot of conversations I've come across.

Sometime, in this little over a decade, I realized that this was one of the items of white privilege: only a people who had not been subjected to ethnocide could be preoccupied with questions like these; and further, a people who had not been disenfranchised by laws written by European colonists and their descendants.

As with every other white privilege, it must be destroyed to liberate communities who have been classified "non-white" by the government and society to truly make an egalitarian country. I've wanted to express this to the neo-pagan community for a while, but didn't know how, until last night I found an article written by a sociologist at Harvard, who says what I feel very clearly.

Please, if you are a resident of the United States, of an old colonial family, or a European immigrant, or just plain white, I want you to read this, and think twice before asking yourself which ethnic flavor of Neo-paganism you should go with.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jc3962/COR/Racism/Racism_1.pdf

 

As I perceive things regarding a standpoint of "where does my blood come from", there is nothing stopping anyone of any skin color/ethnic background/etc to take a cheek swab and send it in for analysis. It's getting cheaper by the day.

Whether or not ethnic identity is important to selecting a flavor of neo-paganism, that's up to the individual. I don't think it's something for others to police.

I would be just as enthused to hear stories of "ethnic identity informing religious practice" from someone who found they are of the Dinka or Nuer people as I would of someone of the Rusyn or Lemko people as I also would of someone with Tagalog ancestry.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Castus

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 12:58:29 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;186645
Introduction: in the little over a decade I've been studying Neo-paganism-reading books written by practitioners, talking to them, I've noticed that ethnic identity is put on and taken off very freely. A conversation on this website revolves around this issue about every month: "I'm descended from all these ethnic groups [which are all European] and I'm trying to figure out which one I really identify with so I can pick the right form of Paganism to honor my ancestors with" is the gist of a lot of conversations I've come across.

Sometime, in this little over a decade, I realized that this was one of the items of white privilege: only a people who had not been subjected to ethnocide could be preoccupied with questions like these; and further, a people who had not been disenfranchised by laws written by European colonists and their descendants.

As with every other white privilege, it must be destroyed to liberate communities who have been classified "non-white" by the government and society to truly make an egalitarian country. I've wanted to express this to the neo-pagan community for a while, but didn't know how, until last night I found an article written by a sociologist at Harvard, who says what I feel very clearly.

Please, if you are a resident of the United States, of an old colonial family, or a European immigrant, or just plain white, I want you to read this, and think twice before asking yourself which ethnic flavor of Neo-paganism you should go with.
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jc3962/COR/Racism/Racism_1.pdf


Look, I enjoy making white people feel guilty for no reason as much as any other. Indeed, daily I find myself thanking God for the herculean efforts of the liberal intelligentsia; without whom we might live in a world where 'racism' actually means something besides a vague, open-ended slur of nebulous association.

But even I think this is a bit silly.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

LunaStar

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 02:05:16 pm »
Quote from: Castus;186651
Indeed, daily I find myself thanking God for the herculean efforts of the liberal intelligentsia; without whom we might live in a world where 'racism' actually means something besides a vague, open-ended slur of nebulous association.

Excuse me? We do live in a world where racism means something literal.  Something awful and painful for some of us.  I'm done with some people pretending that racism doesn't exist.  That is extremely disrespectful.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 02:09:56 pm by LunaStar »

Castus

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 03:14:23 pm »
Quote from: LunaStar;186652
Excuse me? We do live in a world where racism means something literal.  Something awful and painful for some of us.  I'm done with some people pretending that racism doesn't exist.  That is extremely disrespectful.

Racism exists, obviously. I just think it carries meaning beyond "a white person did something I don't like".
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

LunaStar

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 03:31:10 pm »
Quote from: Castus;186655
Racism exists, obviously. I just think it carries meaning beyond "a white person did something I don't like".

Wow, your disrespect knows no end.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:32:14 pm by LunaStar »

Castus

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 03:50:09 pm »
Quote from: LunaStar;186661
Wow, your disrespect knows no end.

As does your seeming penchant for taking words and using them to fit what you want them to mean, as opposed to their actual meaning.

dis·re·spect
/ˌdisrəˈspekt/
noun
1.
lack of respect or courtesy.
"growing disrespect for the rule of law"
synonyms:   contempt, lack of respect, scorn, disregard, disdain More
verbNORTH AMERICANinformal
1.
show a lack of respect for; insult.
"a young brave who disrespects his elders"


Please point out to me where I have failed to respect anyone. I was rather sarcastic in response to the OP, this is true. However the extent of my contribution, as it were, to this thread has been to make the point that in my view the term 'racism' has come into such widespread usage as an epithet -- applied regardless of circumstance or intent, usually to smear victims of the prevailing liberal sentiment -- that it, much like the words fascist or socialist has come to lack concrete meaning. Instead, an act can be defined as 'racist' under an infinite and ever-expanding list of qualifications and criteria. I have simplified those qualifications/criteria to 'a white person has done something I don't like' for ease of usage.

If, to you, that qualifies as disrespect, well then I'm sorry to hear that. But I haven't slandered, insulted, or disrespected anyone here beside the attitudes of a liberal establishment and their accompanying cultural hegemony. If you don't like it, no skin off my nose.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

LunaStar

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 04:18:21 pm »
Quote from: Castus;186662
As does your seeming penchant for taking words and using them to fit what you want them to mean, as opposed to their actual meaning.

dis·re·spect
/ˌdisrəˈspekt/
noun
1.
lack of respect or courtesy.
"growing disrespect for the rule of law"
synonyms:   contempt, lack of respect, scorn, disregard, disdain More
verbNORTH AMERICANinformal
1.
show a lack of respect for; insult.
"a young brave who disrespects his elders"


Please point out to me where I have failed to respect anyone. I was rather sarcastic in response to the OP, this is true. However the extent of my contribution, as it were, to this thread has been to make the point that in my view the term 'racism' has come into such widespread usage as an epithet -- applied regardless of circumstance or intent, usually to smear victims of the prevailing liberal sentiment -- that it, much like the words fascist or socialist has come to lack concrete meaning. Instead, an act can be defined as 'racist' under an infinite and ever-expanding list of qualifications and criteria. I have simplified those qualifications/criteria to 'a white person has done something I don't like' for ease of usage.

If, to you, that qualifies as disrespect, well then I'm sorry to hear that. But I haven't slandered, insulted, or disrespected anyone here beside the attitudes of a liberal establishment and their accompanying cultural hegemony. If you don't like it, no skin off my nose.

 
Oh Castus, may your heart be filled with love.

Castus

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 04:28:06 pm »
Quote from: LunaStar;186664
Oh Castus, may your heart be filled with love.

Nice sidestepping there. Very artful.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

LunaStar

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 04:45:43 pm »
Quote from: Castus;186665
Nice sidestepping there. Very artful.

 
Meh, I don't feel like wasting any more time arguing with a disgruntled conservative.  

Just rest assured that as a person of color I will always call out any white person in America who thinks they're the authority on racism. :)

Castus

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2016, 04:49:54 pm »
Quote from: LunaStar;186666
Meh, I don't feel like wasting any more time arguing with a disgruntled conservative.  

Just rest assured that as a person of color I will always call out any white person in America who thinks they're the authority on racism. :)


Apologies for expecting you to actually give reasons for telling me things like "your disrespect has no end." Rest assured, however, that I will always call out anyone who uses fearmongering, half-baked pseudo-slurs to perpetuate a cultural narrative of oppression and victimisation in order to benefit their liberal cultural policies.
“Castus, meanwhile, goes straight for the bad theology like one of those creepy fish that swims up streams of pee.” — Darkhawk

“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2016, 05:18:18 pm »
Quote from: LunaStar;186661
Wow, your disrespect knows no end.

 
I don't agree that it's as widespread or as hegemonic as Castus states, but the phenomenon he mentions is an actual thing in some places, both in meatspace or on the internet.

I don't think it's useful to discourse to completely shut down the very idea that the word racism might sometimes be misapplied. It happens, and it muddies the conversation about *actual racism*.

And this phenomenon isn't just exclusive to racism, I should add. It's happening with the other -isms, and muddying the conversations around them as well.
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Allaya

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2016, 06:30:44 pm »
Quote from: LunaStar;186652
Excuse me? We do live in a world where racism means something literal.  Something awful and painful for some of us.  I'm done with some people pretending that racism doesn't exist.  That is extremely disrespectful.

If I may offer my thoughts on what Castus was, perhaps unartfully, trying to express...

The grinding, terrible, systemic racism that you have likely had to put up with is well and truly alive. I don't think anyone with their head screwed on would deny that.

However, there seems to be a creeping redefinition of what 'racism' is in the way the word is applied to situations and events. Some have argued that by expanding the application of the word to include these, the deadly-serious connotation is lost and the word loses its power.

The phenomenon is well-attested in the field of linguistics and so if the raw power of the word racism is to be preserved so that it can be used by those who need it most...perhaps we collectively need to reexamine how loosely it is being applied in some circumstances.

Does that make sense to you? Sometimes I am not sure if I've gotten the thoughts out of my head intact.

Edit: if that came out like whitesplaining..holy shit did I not mean it that way. Text is a shitty medium to convey feelings.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 06:34:47 pm by Allaya »
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Kaio

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 12:15:29 am »
Quote from: Materialist;186645
Introduction: in the little over a decade I've been studying Neo-paganism-reading books written by practitioners, talking to them, I've noticed that ethnic identity is put on and taken off very freely. A conversation on this website revolves around this issue about every month: "I'm descended from all these ethnic groups [which are all European] and I'm trying to figure out which one I really identify with so I can pick the right form of Paganism to honor my ancestors with" is the gist of a lot of conversations I've come across.

 
 Well, religious identity isn't usually regarded as ethnic identity even among most reconstructionist contemporary Pagan religions' practitioners, I think; AFAICR my Danish friends (who weren't Pagans, however, AFAIK) didn't see me as a Dane when I was a North Germanic-focused reconstructionist.

Quote from: Materialist;186645
Sometime, in this little over a decade, I realized that this was one of the items of white privilege: only a people who had not been subjected to ethnocide could be preoccupied with questions like these; and further, a people who had not been disenfranchised by laws written by European colonists and their descendants.


 I think this reasoning has some problems related to concepts (like whether by "ethnocide" you mean "genocide" or the anthropologically meaningless notion of "culturcide") and to counterevidence.

 I have African, European and Native American ancestry. I have a clue about some of the specifics of at least some of the non-European peoples which I descend from, like their possible native languages and aspects of the possible non-Abrahamic religions they practiced prior to their possible christianization, because I know Brazilian history; I can't (re)construct my genealogical tree, but maybe what I know about my ancestry is enough if I was a Pagan reconstructionist who wanted to practice a religion strictly aligned with my ancestry.
 I, that still have a somewhat traditionalistic bent regarding religion, also have considered my adherence to religion according to my ancestry, and I'm not white; I thought about being initiated into Umbanda, an African-Brazilian religion, for years, along with my thinking about practicing other religions; even my practicing of North Germanic-focused reconstrucionist Paganism was informed by my Northeastern Italian ancestry, that may include some Germanic ancestor(s).
When in Rome do as the Romans do. (Ambrose)

Faemon

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Re: In the Shadow of America...
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2016, 12:28:53 am »
Quote from: Materialist;186645
A conversation on this website revolves around this issue about every month: "I'm descended from all these ethnic groups [which are all European] and I'm trying to figure out which one I really identify with so I can pick the right form of Paganism to honor my ancestors with" is the gist of a lot of conversations I've come across.

Sometime, in this little over a decade, I realized that this was one of the items of white privilege: only a people who had not been subjected to ethnocide could be preoccupied with questions like these; and further, a people who had not been disenfranchised by laws written by European colonists and their descendants.

As with every other white privilege, it must be destroyed to liberate communities who have been classified "non-white" by the government and society to truly make an egalitarian country.


This article has, I think, an important point of contention in the phrase "symbolic ethnicity" in that it comes off as some fake and maybe bad thing. But if we're talking about paganism in an anthropological context, yes, it's going to be symbolic, as in symbolic as jargon inclusive of all the enactments of a categorical religion.

I'm also getting the impression that religion uniquely applies to the circumstance articulated by Waters...but that makes no mention, and I don't feel it quite meshes to replace, for instance, Waters' extensive analysis of asking about hairstyles in a racist way, am I meant to just replace hairstyle with pagan and find the same dynamics? I didn't find the same dynamics, I think religion requires a tangent from this article, maybe closer to Waters' argument in earlier paragraphs against the 'Plastic Paddies' but precisely how much closer might want more examination.

From the article:

Quote
The implications of symbolic ethnicities for thinking about race relations are subtle but consequential. If your understanding of your own ethnicity and its relationship to society and politics is one of individual choice, it becomes harder to understand the need for programs like affirmative action, which recognize the ongoing need for group struggle and group recognition, in order to bring about social change. It also is hard for a White college student to understand the need that minority students feel to band together against discrimination. It also is easy, on the individual level, to expect everyone else to be able to turn their ethnicity on and off at will, the way you are able to, without understanding that ongoing discrimination and societal attention to minority status makes that impossible for individuals from minority groups to do.


Not so sure about this bolded. I think on another thread someone argued against drawing attention to social inequalities because equality was performative, so we're suppose to think of everyone as equal in order to make things equal. And while that sounds good, the rhetoric has mainly been used to presume that someone else has had lifelong validation and support and resources and privileges completely ignoring that some people, suspiciously demographic trends in fact, don't have that and that's why attention must be drawn to this inequality. So, that's good, to point out that individualist ideology can and has been used for evil.

At the same time, equality is the goal, and individualism to me was the clarification of it. It's individualism that makes it so that My Rights End Where Yours Begin, or my right to swing my fist around ends at somebody else's nose because that punch is when it turns harmful.

So, when someone comes on and puts forth the question, unknowing that we've got that question here for the billionth time, whether they're supposed to be more Slavic or more Roman as pagans as though we could determine that for them...I actually think that's okay? Kind of annoying, but I just ignore those threads because I'm more into "What is my sort of paganism going to be like based on my worldview, values, and philosophy, and maybe lifestyle limitations" threads.

But as long as the former sort of topic-starters don't go up to other people all: "Hi, you mentioned you were Black in one post, but I noticed that you identify as Brythonic Reconstructionist. Haven't you heard of Voodoo? I just found it so fulfilling to get back in touch with your roots, and you would really benefit from doing the same."



What is it exactly you're proposing we do that's different if another thread comes up about lineage being the thing in paganism? Is this a call to collectively respond, "Ethnicity is not something that influences your life unless you want it to, like right now with your seeking a religion you didn't grow up with, and that's a problem."?

What's the solution to that problem?
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