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Author Topic: When in doubt, explain and ask ....  (Read 1388 times)

Bekan

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When in doubt, explain and ask ....
« on: February 12, 2016, 10:14:19 am »
Where to start?! Well, I guess firstly an apology for the fact that this is likely to be a long first post and probably isn't the first of it's kind!

I'm lost. Absolutely and totally. So, here comes some of my life story in the form of a brain dump ….

As a child initially I was Christian (C of E) and even sang in the church choir for events etc. as well as attended Sunday school like a good god fearing young boy! (following my mother’s preference mostly). As I grew older I found myself not having any kind of faith in the beliefs of Christianity even to the extent of playing cards for money as a pastime when sat in the choir pews between hymns … disrespectful to another’s belief system in hindsight now and I am ashamed of that but I think it’s important to point out that I was barely in my teens and couldn’t at the time, associate a respect for something that I didn’t believe in.

My ‘mid’ teens were spent predominantly with no faith although at that point I still believed in ‘some’ higher power of sorts so I guess at a push you could say I was ‘spiritualist’ to an extent. I don’t recall my age but I think it was around 16/17 when my mother embarked on her own quest for faith having had a similar loss of faith in Christianity. Still young and impressionable really, I followed her into the Catholic church and ultimately was confirmed into the faith. It was a nice environment with decent people and generally I felt comfortable there … unfortunately I still didn’t find god as it were and ultimately drifted away from it too. My mother stayed there longer than I did but some years later she also left. During those years I didn’t particularly think about things at all - I was 18 upwards and here in the UK that meant drinking was legal, driving was allowed and the combination of the two (NOT dui to be clear!!!) meant girls! Of course the fact of the matter was that really I was a tech geek so whilst I wasn’t the classic spotty nerd and could be charming when needed, I always lost out to the ‘cool kids’ really! lol! Either way I was care free and having fun so it didn’t really matter to me.

Essentially I became pretty much agnostic at that point but looking at it now, I was also arrogant in my view that the people following such ‘rigid’ and ‘restrictive’ religions like Christianity or Catholicism did so as crutches or coping mechanisms for when they couldn’t explain something bad in their lives …… in all honesty a part of me that I keep repressed still does think that sometimes (I should clarify that I don’t intend that as an insult to anyone although I can see why I would be taken that way - it’s more a statement of confusion and conflict in my own mind and self since on the one hand I think that but on the other, I’m seeking faith … or ‘something’ myself!).

Moving on, my mother discovered buddhism and explored that which encouraged me to do the same (noticing a trend here? lol) although for different reasons - mine were somewhat more shallow to be frank; I was into martial arts and had started training in Wing-tsun at the time so it seemed logical to investigate some of the Asian paths particularly as in some cases they’re strongly tied. Again though, I didn’t find what I was looking for and ultimately went back to a mixed state of agnostic some days and ‘spiritual’ the others. My father throughout this course firmly remained agnostic not that he would’ve accepted any kind of title being given to it.

Moving on ten years to now and looking back at my life so far (early mid-life crisis perhaps?! lol!) I find myself in a strange position of not exactly being unhappy with the outcome so far but simply, feeling like there could or should be something else there; something missing if you will. I’ve not had a bad life by any means - I’m not rich but there’s certainly people in worse positions. I have good health (so far lol!) and am blessed with having met a good woman that loves me unconditionally. I also have a roof over my head and nice material objects / luxuries which makes life pleasant. The flip side is same as everyone else though, I’ve had losses and bad times that I’ve struggled to get through and indeed right now, there are some ‘challenging’ things for me to deal with. On the whole I guess I’ve been lucky but most of that is what I perceive to be consequence of my own doing rather than luck in the traditional sense. In fact most that know me would say I’m actually quite unlucky in that way - I’m not the guy that wins on the scratch cards … actually I think I’ve only ever won a couple of those and that was just the amount I’d paid for the card! There’s a running joke between a friend and myself that I’m so unlucky I can’t even win the nigerian email lottery!

So here I am. A faith history of experimentation still with nothing that sits right with me. I don’t believe or disbelieve in anything specifically and still do have some agnostic feelings on that basis yet, at the same time can’t help feeling that there’s something more that I should be seeking. I’ve spent the last few weeks (with the other things in my life at the moment I haven’t slept much so it’s allowed good amounts of time!) reflecting and trawling through pages upon pages of beliefs, rules, fancy over the top expressions people have used to make themselves sound authoritative on their chosen topic and some strong opinions of what ‘should be’ according to some (obviously expected). Honestly, the amount of information is overwhelming and most of it is almost impossible to determine whether it’s fact, fiction or individual interpretation. My conclusion there is that predominantly it’s all three. All I do know is I’ve found ‘aspects’ of things that I find myself drawn to but, in many ways there’s conflict between them. Do I want to ‘cherry-pick’ the things I like? Yes, I suppose I do to an extent - to me that’s simply human nature. It’s also the logical part of me saying that most religion or faith essentially boils down to ‘guidelines’ on how to live your life and not be an a$$ with little to no evidence of ruling from on high (I know thats where the faith part really kicks in) so it makes sense that it’s predominantly constructed of things we like. It also seems logical to me that historically, people were likely to have done the same.

What am I drawn to then? Well, first and foremost is the pentagram which was what led me to ‘paganism’ as the colossal umbrella term! Can’t explain it, I’m just drawn to it. Specifically the star of solomon/david (at least that’s what I think it’s called). In fact, I’m wearing one as of this morning. I guess a part of me is hoping it’ll afford me some protection against the things in my life at the moment that I perceive to be bad luck. I’m also wearing an ankh although I don’t particularly feel any affinity towards it other than simply liking it aesthetically. The turkish evil eye ward is also something that holds some attraction to me, again though I have no explanation for why. Nature has always had a strong draw for me yet despite owning air rifles I’ve never had the capacity to hunt or kill an animal (I do however enjoy the challenge of outdoor target shooting). Magic … honestly I think it’s cool and being a fantasy fiction fan I love the various concepts but, I find myself doubting in it as a ‘real’ thing (please, please don’t take that as an insult) - that’s not to say I wouldn’t be willing to be proven otherwise though. A closed mind is a limited one! Finally the deities … this is the big crunch! I’m drawn to the norse gods, particularly odin, thor and tyr …. I think! I also find myself sharing similar beliefs in some cases to the Asatru / norse followings but, in places it seems too absolute and rigid. Typically in those places the ‘generic’ Wiccan beliefs seem more appropriate - to me it’s essentially a balance. Sometimes it’s right to stand your ground and defend yourself or honour (or indeed someone else’s) but other times it’s better to walk away or seek a peaceful resolution. A limited example I’ll grant but hopefully demonstrates my thoughts. Finally the offerings and prayers respectively … honestly I’m not much for praying or kneeling at alters and similarly burning dried plants or chucking good beer on the floor seems illogical or even counter productive to me - for example, if a norse god loves beer so much surely he wouldn’t want to see it wasted on the floor?! Much as I’ve light heartedly joked about it I don’t mean any disrespect by it - it’s simply a way to express a point of sorts. As for ‘sky clad’ … Don’t get me wrong I can see the appeal but, I’m sorry - that had to be a man that came up with that idea! ;)

As at the start, I want to apologise. Not only for the monumental read (I hope you were sat comfortably!) of my brain dump but also to anyone I may have offended in ANY way with this post. I generally try to take a light hearted approach to life (never get out of it alive as the old saying goes!) as my way of dealing with things. I honestly do understand that some have a more serious outlook on things and don’t like jokes being made when it comes to their faith/beliefs. As I said before, I’m lost. In a sea of information, beliefs and let’s be honest here; pages of bs too. I have absolutely no idea where my personal beliefs fit or where I should be looking. Joking makes things easier for me I guess but it’s not (nor will it ever be) intended to be disrespectful in a circumstance like this.

Final note, If anything I guess I'm closest to the Norse Wicca following at the moment  although even that isn't quite right to me. If anyone is kind enough to have taken the time to read this and offer some guidance to me, it would genuinely be appreciated! The only thing I absolutely do know for sure is that Odinism is not the path for me courtesy of an old thread on here from some years back … a thread in fact that made up my mind to sign up - a member named Valentine did a fantastic job in a post to conclude that particular thread lol!

RecycledBenedict

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Re: When in doubt, explain and ask ....
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2016, 05:08:32 pm »
I hope you will find some advice here on The Cauldron. Just remember, that your personal existential path is your own.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
Final note, If anything I guess I'm closest to the Norse Wicca following at the moment  although even that isn't quite right to me.

I am not familiar enough with the ways Wicca has branched out since the 1970s, to give you any advice on Norse Wicca. Is it non-initiatory? It sounds like you haven't found a coven of Wiccans yet? Are Nanna, Balder and Ho∂r important in Norse Wicca?

Quote from: Bekan;186532
I don’t recall my age but I think it was around 16/17 when my mother embarked on her own quest for faith having had a similar loss of faith in Christianity. Still young and impressionable really, I followed her into the Catholic church and ultimately was confirmed into the faith. (...)
Essentially I became pretty much agnostic at that point but looking at it now, I was also arrogant in my view that the people following such ‘rigid’ and ‘restrictive’ religions like Christianity or Catholicism did so as crutches or coping mechanisms for when they couldn’t explain something bad in their lives ……

Just remember that Roman Catholicism is a sub-group of Christianity, and the largest one at that. It is not the opposite of Christianity, but a part of it.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
Again though, I didn’t find what I was looking for and ultimately went back to a mixed state of agnostic some days and ‘spiritual’ the others. (...) I don’t believe or disbelieve in anything specifically and still do have some agnostic feelings on that basis yet, at the same time can’t help feeling that there’s something more that I should be seeking.

You will find that a lot of modern pagans have a semi-Agnostic attitude to the divine: Just because one perform rituals involving some deities, does not mean that one claim to know everything about the entire divine reality, or even about the deities involved in one's preferred rituals.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
It’s also the logical part of me saying that most religion or faith essentially boils down to ‘guidelines’ on how to live your life and not be an a$$ with little to no evidence of ruling from on high (I know thats where the faith part really kicks in) so it makes sense that it’s predominantly constructed of things we like. It also seems logical to me that historically, people were likely to have done the same.

Personally, I find better tools to reflect on ethics in philosophy than in religion.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
What am I drawn to then? Well, first and foremost is the pentagram which was what led me to ‘paganism’ as the colossal umbrella term! Can’t explain it, I’m just drawn to it. Specifically the star of solomon/david (at least that’s what I think it’s called). In fact, I’m wearing one as of this morning. I guess a part of me is hoping it’ll afford me some protection against the things in my life at the moment that I perceive to be bad luck.

If a star has five points, it is a pentagram. Penta means 'five' in Greek. If a star has six points, it is a hexagram. Hexa means 'six' in Greek. The star of David has six points, and is a hexagram.

There are several stars called 'Star of Solomon'. Some are pentagrams. Some are hexagrams. The pentagram is nowadays one of the symbols of Wicca, but it is also used in many other surroundings. In ancient Greece, the Pythagorean philosophers used it to symbolise Health. In the middle ages, Christians used it as a symbol for Virgin Mary. Both the pentagram and the hexagram have been popular among ceremonial magicians.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
Nature has always had a strong draw for me yet despite owning air rifles I’ve never had the capacity to hunt or kill an animal (I do however enjoy the challenge of outdoor target shooting). (...) I have absolutely no idea where my personal beliefs fit or where I should be looking.

Perhaps pantheism and/or Druidry could be an option for you? Some Wiccans have also been Druids.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
Magic … honestly I think it’s cool and being a fantasy fiction fan I love the various concepts but, I find myself doubting in it as a ‘real’ thing (please, please don’t take that as an insult) - that’s not to say I wouldn’t be willing to be proven otherwise though. A closed mind is a limited one!

Scepticism is a sign of health. A large amount - but not all - of the things which, out of convention, are called 'magic' are rather pop-psychological methods. If it makes you more comfortable to call it pop-psychology instead of magic, you are welcome.

Quote from: Bekan;186532
As for ‘sky clad’ … Don’t get me wrong I can see the appeal but, I’m sorry - that had to be a man that came up with that idea! ;)

Yes, probably. His name was Gerald Gardner (1884-1964).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 05:11:20 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Faemon

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Re: When in doubt, explain and ask ....
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2016, 03:06:08 am »
Quote from: Bekan;186532
I became pretty much agnostic at that point but looking at it now, I was also arrogant in my view that the people following such ‘rigid’ and ‘restrictive’ religions like Christianity or Catholicism did so as crutches or coping mechanisms for when they couldn’t explain something bad in their lives …… in all honesty a part of me that I keep repressed still does think that sometimes

I find myself in a strange position of not exactly being unhappy with the outcome so far but simply, feeling like there could or should be something else there; something missing if you will. I’ve not had a bad life by any means

So here I am. A faith history of experimentation still with nothing that sits right with me.



As at the start, I want to apologise. Not only for the monumental read (I hope you were sat comfortably!) of my brain dump but also to anyone I may have offended in ANY way with this post.  

If anyone is kind enough to have taken the time to read this and offer some guidance to me, it would genuinely be appreciated!


I gather from all this that you'll know when you find it, but you've searched a lot and nothing is It for you part and parcel really. (Yet.) Which is totally okay, in case you need to be told that. ;)

Personally, I do my best to get circumspective (or 'meta') about it all, and that's structured my approach. Even though that structured approach and its process is, itself, the It that I've found and accepted...in a meta way, as applies to Religion, but to me that distinction makes a not-always-useful separation between religion, secularity, and life.

Quote
Do I want to ‘cherry-pick’ the things I like? Yes, I suppose I do to an extent - to me that’s simply human nature. It’s also the logical part of me saying that most religion or faith essentially boils down to ‘guidelines’ on how to live your life and not be an a$$ with little to no evidence of ruling from on high (I know thats where the faith part really kicks in) so it makes sense that it’s predominantly constructed of things we like. It also seems logical to me that historically, people were likely to have done the same.


A question I hope would clarify what you seek with the answer: How does faith interface with logic and history, to you? Do they honestly feel more contradictory and mutually exclusive? Or is it a matter of application, or balance? Or are they all key concepts in your very own Great Unified Philosophy of Life?

(Some days, reading about religious history and the politics have been to me like watching sausage being made, I don't want to eat it after. Other times, it's just come off to me as more, well, that's simply how it is and the impulse to a value judgment just doesn't come up.)

Quote
What am I drawn to then?

Well, first and foremost is the pentagram which was what led me to ‘paganism’ as the colossal umbrella term! Can’t explain it, I’m just drawn to it. Specifically the star of solomon/david (at least that’s what I think it’s called). In fact, I’m wearing one as of this morning. I guess a part of me is hoping it’ll afford me some protection against the things in my life at the moment that I perceive to be bad luck. I’m also wearing an ankh although I don’t particularly feel any affinity towards it other than simply liking it aesthetically. The turkish evil eye ward is also something that holds some attraction to me, again though I have no explanation for why.

Nature has always had a strong draw for me yet despite owning air rifles I’ve never had the capacity to hunt or kill an animal (I do however enjoy the challenge of outdoor target shooting).

Magic … honestly I think it’s cool and being a fantasy fiction fan I love the various concepts but, I find myself doubting in it as a ‘real’ thing (please, please don’t take that as an insult) - that’s not to say I wouldn’t be willing to be proven otherwise though. A closed mind is a limited one!

Finally the deities … this is the big crunch! I’m drawn to the norse gods, particularly odin, thor and tyr …. I think! I also find myself sharing similar beliefs in some cases to the Asatru / norse followings but, in places it seems too absolute and rigid. Typically in those places the ‘generic’ Wiccan beliefs seem more appropriate - to me it’s essentially a balance. Sometimes it’s right to stand your ground and defend yourself or honour (or indeed someone else’s) but other times it’s better to walk away or seek a peaceful resolution. A limited example I’ll grant but hopefully demonstrates my thoughts.

Finally the offerings and prayers respectively … honestly I’m not much for praying or kneeling at alters and similarly burning dried plants or chucking good beer on the floor seems illogical or even counter productive to me - for example, if a norse god loves beer so much surely he wouldn’t want to see it wasted on the floor?! Much as I’ve light heartedly joked about it I don’t mean any disrespect by it - it’s simply a way to express a point of sorts.


I consider these, the geometry and materials of religious symbols, the anthropomorphism, the mythology, the offerings, the gestures of devotional practice...as fitting under the broader meaning of symbolism; I gather that you seek some expression of an existential hope or anxiety, that would be recognized and supported by society (not necessarily a harmonious community that stands in solidarity, not that anybody actively seeks a hostile community), or at least to your subconscious so as to feel fulfilled or to excel in that sense of...positioning oneself in the world?

Or, in general, some bridge between religious symbols and meaningfulness or applicability to your life?

(If it doesn't help to pathologize or politicize your way, as much as to just do the thing, please do feel free to say so, and also of course if I'm reflecting back anything wrong. I don't know anything about your inner world, really. This is all merely, as I said, my approach to my approach. I wouldn't be able to word the thing I'm approaching, even if I could be certain that it was the same thing you were approaching or wanted to approach, and that I can't be certain.)
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

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