collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?  (Read 15405 times)

sionnachdearg

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2014
  • Posts: 127
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Considering how long paganism existed in Europe, why did it completely disappear in less than 1000 years since the introduction of Christianity to Europe?

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 04:11:32 pm »
Quote from: sionnachdearg;184082
Considering how long paganism existed in Europe, why did it completely disappear in less than 1000 years since the introduction of Christianity to Europe?

The conversion process, from a socio-cultural point of view, had several stages.

Initially, individuals from mobile groups of people with international contacts became acquaintanced to Christianity on journeys: Merchants is the most obvious sub-group belonging to this category, but, during parts of the process, owners of slaves imported from other regions also were a sub-group of this category. In the Northern part of Europe, about which I know more than other parts, formerly Pagan merchants gladly accepted to prepare for baptism, one of the motivations being that only those who were baptised (or had begun preparation for it - the cathecumens) were allowed to trade with kingdoms with Christian monarchs. Some of these nurtured a dual adherence of both Paganism and Christianity, some forgot their Christianity once they had returned home to a mainly Pagan envionement.

At a later stage, these cosmopolitan groups of people began to nurture a positive view of Christian practice - not necessarily a detailed intellectual belief* - and began to practice Christianity at home, building private chapels on their farms if they were middle- or upper class, practicing Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory be if they were slaves (taking part of holy communion if it was possible).

At a third stage, the persentage of Christian adherents had become sufficiently large to cause monarchs to take a look at the new religion. As long as the major part of the population, especially the upper classes upon which the monarchs had to rely to maintain ther political power, was Pagan, it would be political suicide to side with Christianity, but when the numbers had changed, it would be politically tactical of the monarchs to treat the Christian church in a friendly way - but for some generations not necessarily by being baptised themselves. A baptised monarch was eligible to anointment and coronation by a bishop, an act that would increase the formerly Pagan monarch's prestige in the sight of neighbouring Christian monarchs.

The fourth stage didn't happen until the percentage of potential Pagan opponents was negligible: To enshrine Christianity in the laws of the realm, and outlaw the practice of Pagan religions.

Neo-Paganism has often inserted an aspect of Christianity in itself, that often was absent from the old Pagan religions: A personal relationship with the deity and an openness for religious experience (although these aspects of Christianity became much more prominent in forms of Christianity from the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, than they - although present - had been in early Christianity). The Pagan mystery religions had this personal aspect, but the official, public face of Paleo-Pagan religions was very much about upper-class representatives performing traditional rites for the good of the city, region, country or empire in a strict, impersonal and automatic way. What Christianity (and other mystery religions) brought to Paleo-Pagans of the day was the personal relation to a deity that was interested in the everyday worries of slaves, women and other marginalised groups - Christianity incorporating the (Pagan) Stoic ideal of the equal worth of slaves and emperors alike, in contrast to the dominating aristocratic view of society. The Christian Afterlife must have seemed more positive than the Mesopotamian and Greek Afterlife. A parallel development is seen in Phrygia in the emerging cult of Theos Hypsistos (a hybrid of Zeus, YHWH and Plato's The Good). The appeal of Christianity for Scandinavian women, may - in part - be explained by that Christianity caused the abolishment of leaving babies unwanted by their fathers in the forests.

* A heavy stress on belief belong to Protestantism and Counter-reformation forms of Catholicism, not Christianity during the first 1500 years of Christian history. That one was more practice-oriented.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 04:14:20 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 04:22:41 pm »
Quote from: sionnachdearg;184082
Considering how long paganism existed in Europe, why did it completely disappear in less than 1000 years since the introduction of Christianity to Europe?

 
Well, some parts of Europe were still considerably Pagan for a long time, even up until the end of the middle ages. Parts of Greece were Polytheistic even by 800 AD. About 1.4 of the rural Egyptian population was still polythesistic until the Islamic Conquest. Scandanavia was still polytheist until well after 1000 AD, possibly for another 500 years (depending on the year), and the Northern Crusades to Christianise North Eastern Germany, Poland, and Lithuania occurred from the 12th to the 13th century. So I would not be so sure that 'Paganism' died out in 1000 years.

Allaya

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • *
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 88
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 05:00:26 pm »
Quote from: Yei;184091
Well, some parts of Europe were still considerably Pagan for a long time, even up until the end of the middle ages. Parts of Greece were Polytheistic even by 800 AD. About 1.4 of the rural Egyptian population was still polythesistic until the Islamic Conquest. Scandanavia was still polytheist until well after 1000 AD, possibly for another 500 years (depending on the year), and the Northern Crusades to Christianise North Eastern Germany, Poland, and Lithuania occurred from the 12th to the 13th century. So I would not be so sure that 'Paganism' died out in 1000 years.

 
Adding to this...

...at least in Norway, the veneer of Christianity is reeeeeeally thin. Reading between the lines, it seems that Norway collectively converted in order to get the missionaries to STFU and GTFO.

Fun Fact: Santa does not deliver Jul (modern form of the Old Norse jól, midwinter festive season) gifts to children here. The Julnisse is who brings presents and he (being a nisse) is a land wight. In some areas, the Julnisse is said to arrive on the Julbukk, a he-goat.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Elding

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Posts: 98
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 06:52:21 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;184089
Neo-Paganism has often inserted an aspect of Christianity in itself, that often was absent from the old Pagan religions: A personal relationship with the deity and an openness for religious experience (although these aspects of Christianity became much more prominent in forms of Christianity from the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, than they - although present - had been in early Christianity). The Pagan mystery religions had this personal aspect, but the official, public face of Paleo-Pagan religions was very much about upper-class representatives performing traditional rites for the good of the city, region, country or empire in a strict, impersonal and automatic way. What Christianity (and other mystery religions) brought to Paleo-Pagans of the day was the personal relation to a deity that was interested in the everyday worries of slaves, women and other marginalised groups - Christianity incorporating the (Pagan) Stoic ideal of the equal worth of slaves and emperors alike, in contrast to the dominating aristocratic view of society. The Christian Afterlife must have seemed more positive than the Mesopotamian and Greek Afterlife. A parallel development is seen in Phrygia in the emerging cult of Theos Hypsistos (a hybrid of Zeus, YHWH and Plato's The Good). The appeal of Christianity for Scandinavian women, may - in part - be explained by that Christianity caused the abolishment of leaving babies unwanted by their fathers in the forests.

While I agree with most of your post, I am curious about why you would deem this to be the case? Why would individuals not approach the deities they choose to follow? Certainly some Gods weren't exactly as approachable as others, but there are many instances of people who performed their religious practices on their own, in lore and history. I don't know about other religions because I have not studied them, but Thor and his hammer for example was invoked during marriages, births, oath-makings, and other, often quite personal, events.. not to mention that he was described as traveling to peoples houses, sharing goat meat while doing so. Furthermore, shaman and priest type people would be required to have some sort of personal relationship with the powers they worked with, even if that might, in extreme cases, be the relationship between a master and a slave. There was also the relationship to be maintained with ancestors, which must be regarded as part of the religion, although perhaps a slightly different part.

It is true that most written accounts of old religions are from foreigners who wrote down the happenings of public events, and describe large temples and the harrowing events of bigger blóts. But frankly, the same would be true for Christianity if the roles were reversed - an outsider looking in, would only see the fancy churches and the public events. He or she would never see the private prayers, the private offerings, the private ceremonies that were carried out alone or with family. They'd just see stuff like Christmas, the expensive Vatican buildings, the cemeteries, and the likes of such especially notable things.

(I assume, by the way, that you are not speaking of the PALEO religions, but iron age and forward? After all.. the Paleolithic was a pretty damn long time ago and we have no written sources of that era of ancient Europe, unless you want to count the petroglyphs. I'd argue that a stone age setting wouldn't have much of an upper class to begin with, but that's a different subject.)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 06:55:06 pm by Elding »
Out in the woods, and I\'m not alone, but the sun\'s quickly going down!
There! In the trees! Something stalking me! Stop walking around!
\'K, just be cool, don\'t be such a fool! There is nothing at all to fear...
... other than the trees and the night and a beam of light, and the breathing in my ear...
[/I]

Elding

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Posts: 98
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 07:05:13 pm »
Quote from: sionnachdearg;184082
Considering how long paganism existed in Europe, why did it completely disappear in less than 1000 years since the introduction of Christianity to Europe?

 
It did not disappear COMPLETELY until the advent of the industrialization (and even today it remains, though now it is more of a curiosity to most people than an actual part of 'faith', in a lack of better words). You need only look to folklore to find remnants of the old religion - trolls, magics, cats and certain kinds of healing never disappeared until the day they were demoted to the stuff of children stories, but was incorporated into the new religion, sometimes in very different forms, sometimes not. In Scandinavia, we still put out porrige to the farm spirit at Christmas for example, and lets not forget the infamous Midsummer pole that is really the flower-clad idol of Freys penis... and the Sami remained unconverted until the 1800's and have kept much of their old religion.

But yeah, there were times when not being a Christian was.. not such a good idea. If you had to choose between being burned alive or at least SYMBOLICALLY go to church on Sundays and shut up about your real faith, the latter one might be tempting.
Out in the woods, and I\'m not alone, but the sun\'s quickly going down!
There! In the trees! Something stalking me! Stop walking around!
\'K, just be cool, don\'t be such a fool! There is nothing at all to fear...
... other than the trees and the night and a beam of light, and the breathing in my ear...
[/I]

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2015, 06:57:01 am »
Quote from: Elding;184101
... and lets not forget the infamous Midsummer pole that is really the flower-clad idol of Freys penis...


No it isn't. That's a widely circulating idea propagated by national romanticism. The maypole was invented in Germany in the middle ages, and spread to Sweden, probably in the 14th century.

Quote from: Elding;184101
If you had to choose between being burned alive or at least SYMBOLICALLY go to church on Sundays and shut up about your real faith, the latter one might be tempting.


Burning living persons was never a part of penalties in Swedish law. It happened, though, that the corpse of persons executed by other means were burned after death.

The penalty for performing blót was to pay a fine to the local community, not capital punishment. Take a look in Gutalagen (Gotland Law) paragraph 4.

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2015, 07:00:17 am »
Quote from: Elding;184099
(I assume, by the way, that you are not speaking of the PALEO religions, but iron age and forward? After all.. the Paleolithic was a pretty damn long time ago and we have no written sources of that era of ancient Europe, unless you want to count the petroglyphs. I'd argue that a stone age setting wouldn't have much of an upper class to begin with, but that's a different subject.)


I am speaking about Paleo-Paganism, in distiction to Neo-Paganism, as per Isaac Bonewits. I am not speaking about the Paleolithic Age.

Neolithicum had an upper class, but not Paleolithicum and Mesolithicum. Social stratification began in Neolithicum.

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2015, 07:10:26 am »
Quote from: Elding;184099
While I agree with most of your post, I am curious about why you would deem this to be the case? Why would individuals not approach the deities they choose to follow? Certainly some Gods weren't exactly as approachable as others, but there are many instances of people who performed their religious practices on their own, in lore and history.


Yes of course there were, but that was not the public face of the Paleo-Pagan religions. Regardless of if we are talking about the rites performed by the Pharao in Egypt, rites performed by members of the Roman Senate (or their close relatives) or rites performed at comparatively small regional Thingr (Swedish: Ting) they were done on behalf of a political unit. Individualist it was not. The contractual view of the practice was probably more obvious among the Romans, who nurtured a deeply juridical view on religion, but some form of basic do-ut-des thinking was probably present in every Paleo-Pagan religion.

Elding

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Posts: 98
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2015, 07:26:24 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;184113
Yes of course there were, but that was not the public face of the Paleo-Pagan religions. Regardless of if we are talking about the rites performed by the Pharao in Egypt, rites performed by members of the Roman Senate (or their close relatives) or rites performed at comparatively small regional Thingr (Swedish: Ting) they were done on behalf of a political unit. Individualist it was not. The contractual view of the practice was probably more obvious among the Romans, who nurtured a deeply juridical view on religion, but some form of basic do-ut-des thinking was probably present in every Paleo-Pagan religion.

 
Again, I see no evidence of this. I see a bunch of religions that we, historically speaking, know very little of, and certainly not enough to make such a claim. Perhaps the Greek and Romans had enough preserved writing to make such statements accurate, but it is a very big step from saying that "the Romans did it this way" to "All of ancient Europe did it this way".
Out in the woods, and I\'m not alone, but the sun\'s quickly going down!
There! In the trees! Something stalking me! Stop walking around!
\'K, just be cool, don\'t be such a fool! There is nothing at all to fear...
... other than the trees and the night and a beam of light, and the breathing in my ear...
[/I]

Elding

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Posts: 98
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2015, 07:27:52 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;184112
I am speaking about Paleo-Paganism, in distiction to Neo-Paganism, as per Isaac Bonewits. I am not speaking about the Paleolithic Age.

Neolithicum had an upper class, but not Paleolithicum and Mesolithicum. Social stratification began in Neolithicum.

 
Ok. Thanks for clarifying.
Out in the woods, and I\'m not alone, but the sun\'s quickly going down!
There! In the trees! Something stalking me! Stop walking around!
\'K, just be cool, don\'t be such a fool! There is nothing at all to fear...
... other than the trees and the night and a beam of light, and the breathing in my ear...
[/I]

Allaya

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • *
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 88
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2015, 07:34:42 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;184111
Burning living persons was never a part of penalties in Swedish law. It happened, though, that the corpse of persons executed by other means were burned after death.

 
Just FYI: Norway had a nasty habit of setting its accused witches on fire.

91 people got torched up in Vardø. We even put up a memorial to them.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2015, 07:58:34 am »
Quote from: Allaya;184116
Just FYI: Norway had a nasty habit of setting its accused witches on fire.

91 people got torched up in Vardø. We even put up a memorial to them.


If Norwegians burned alive persons convicted of worshipping the Christian Devil, the penalties in Norwegian law were different than the Swedish ones. That, of course, doesn't tell us which penalities persons convicted of blót had to suffer. Two different alleged crimes.

Allaya

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • *
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 88
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2015, 08:08:12 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;184117
If Norwegians burned alive persons convicted of worshipping the Christian Devil, the penalties in Norwegian law were different than the Swedish ones. That, of course, doesn't tell us which penalities persons convicted of blót had to suffer. Two different alleged crimes.

 
You're the one who brought up blót and narrowed the focus to Sweden. The post you were referencing mentioned Scandinavia, not Sweden specifically. Last I checked, Sweden isn't the only Scandinavian country. It also contained no mention of blót.

You're moving goalposts.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Why did paganism completely die out in Western Europe Completely?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 08:12:33 am »
Quote from: Allaya;184118
You're the one who brought up blót and narrowed the focus to Sweden. The post you were referencing mentioned Scandinavia, not Sweden specifically. Last I checked, Sweden isn't the only Scandinavian country. It also contained no mention of blót.

You're moving goalposts.


But the alleged act of worshipping the Christian Devil (the victims were probably innocent of the accusation) has nothing to do with surviving pre-Christian religions?

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
1957 Views
Last post September 05, 2011, 01:40:02 pm
by sailor
0 Replies
3307 Views
Last post June 02, 2012, 01:58:28 pm
by RandallS
1 Replies
1981 Views
Last post August 02, 2012, 03:57:49 am
by Utusitusi
8 Replies
2244 Views
Last post October 30, 2014, 07:02:12 pm
by Sefiru
5 Replies
2980 Views
Last post December 27, 2015, 04:02:26 pm
by Yei

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 196
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal