The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

I have a strong connection with nature, and always have since I was a kid.  I love hiking and camping.  I've always enjoyed being in nature.  There are many times I will go out and just sit in nature and just listen to it. I feel a connection to it and that is one thing that made me think paganism is the way to go.  Just, I eat meat and fish from time to time.

I'm no expert in any of this, but I don't think there are any (or at least many; there are probably /some/ somewhere) branches of paganism that disallow meat-eating. Ancient people ate meat, and whether you eat it or not doesn't have to have anything to do with your religion. I'm a pescetarian, but it's got nothing to do with my paganism.

2nd.  This is a question I've had in my head since looking into paganism.  I was told in the Intro board that being a vegetarian is not a requirement of being in some of these pagan religions.  My question is exactly how far does that go?  How frowned upon is a pagan who eats meat?

I would say that most pagan religions don't care if you're vegetarian or not. Or rather, you'll have the same vegetarian shaming rates you'll find in most other religions.

Now Hinduism is another thing entirely. Many Indian Hindus are vegetarian. And if you eat cattle, especially in India, you are dead meat! (Or at least according to BBC radio.)

I don't know about non-India Hindu standards on eating meat or cattle, however.

I grew up in the southern United States and my dads side of the family are very big outdoorsmen. My family members are avid fly fishermen.  Is that something that is frowned upon?  I know some parts of paganism believe that no animals should be harmed and fishing is harming an animal.  What if the fish is used for food though?  

Here's the thing about paganism: it differs by religion & it differs by community.

If you kill a goat in America for the gods, then it doesn't matter how gently you killed it compared to how the local slaughterhouse does it. You are officially effed up in the minds of most Americans.

But offering the gods some McDonald's? Sure, why not?


Now, you kill a goat for the gods in Scandinavia? Well, did you follow the local laws ensuring a gentle killing? Well, okay then. Good for you.

(At least, that's how I understood it. I mean, a zoo sacrificed a giraffe for blood purity & lions and it was done as an educational attraction. )

I don't know about fly-fishing per se, but you should be good. The ones more focused on nature might be worried about the sustainability of the fish caught, however.

I have a strong connection with nature, and always have since I was a kid.  I love hiking and camping.  I've always enjoyed being in nature.  There are many times I will go out and just sit in nature and just listen to it. I feel a connection to it and that is one thing that made me think paganism is the way to go.  Just, I eat meat and fish from time to time.

You're in the right place. Lots of pagans (but not all) are nature lovers and lots of pagans eat meat. Go wild! (Pun intended.)

Now my first question still stands, but I did do some research into Druidry last night.  I found out there are three parts to it. bards, Ovates and Druids.

That's a thing for one, or maybe a couple, of druidic organisations.  There are a number of them and someone can be a good fit for some and not others.

Reconstructionist that are Celtic, are kind of similar.  Something about Celtic neopagans? and even Celtic Wiccans. I feel I may fit better into one of these other parts.  

Celtic reconstructionism aims at attempting to recreate/revivify religion as practiced by various Celtic peoples.  The most popular form I've seen is the Irish, though there's also a sort of vague pan-Celtic thing that's mostly Irish except when it isn't that's an attempt to make up for the fact that there is very little concrete information to work from.

Is there a board on here where I can list certain beliefs and people tell me where I might fit according to my list?  I just feel like paganism is such a huge thing that I'm getting a bit overwhelmed.

 
Here's a thing that's going to trip you up until you manage to shift your worldview: listing off beliefs will not help you orient yourself.  Pagan religions are for the most part not creedal - there isn't a "if you believe this then you are a" involved.  There are belief-sets attached, yes, but they are a whole lot less definitive until you get into some very specific theological points that you're unlikely to have an articulated opinion on just yet.

Practicing the same religion - sometimes in the same group - you may find people who believe in Strict Every Divine Name Belongs To A Different God polytheism, people who figure that hey, some of these names may be different handles for the same god, people who think that the gods are purely symbolic but that's not a reason to be rude, people who think that all gods are forms or reflections of their preferred set of gods, people who think of gods as archetypes, people who imagine gods to be psychological constructs, people who think of gods as emanations from a monistic Source, atheists who value the rituals, and bunches of other sorts of positions.  (Further, depending on the day, some of those people may actually be the same person!)  This means that talking about 'well, I believe gods are like this' gets you pretty much nowhere.

The same holds for bunches of other beliefs.  You might believe a thing, and encounter a half-dozen pagan religions where believing that thing is common or even important, and another twenty where believing that thing is not wrong, because there's no required belief in that zone so, hey, whatever floats your boat.

So you're wanting to explore in the direction of your heritage.  That's a common start point.  And there are a bunch of ways it can go from there:

* you investigate your heritage-based practices, and find that they satisfy your soul-itch, and perhaps you develop meaningful relationships with the forces of the cosmos on that model, and that is great, and you are sorted out
* you investigate your heritage-based practices, and find some interesting things, but nothing ever feels like it fits, so you take the pieces that work for you, set them aside, and move on to something else
* you investigate your heritage-based practices, and find that the respect you wanted to show for your heritage is better expressed through some form of ancestor veneration instead, and move on to something else
* you investigate your heritage-based practices and ricochet off them like a superball dropped down a spiral staircase, and you spend a while going "... what happened there?" and move on to something else

And you don't know which of these - or any other thing - is going to happen until you try out a set of things on for size and see whether or not it feels like it works.

I personally went through a lot of stuff to which my internal response was, at best, "Doing this makes me feel kind of silly" before I found something that seriously hit my "Doing this feels good, right, helps me be a better person, stabilises some of my issues, and generally is functional" almost entirely by accident.  Allow space for lucky accidents.

Well that is a world view shift.  I always assumed it was a "if you believe this" kind of thing.  Going from a Christian background into paganism is a learning curve. yet, I kind of like the fact that that is true.  This all is really interesting to me and I enjoy learning about it.  Maybe, I'll figure it all out one day.  

That's often one of the biggest culture shocks for people coming from a Christian background - lots of us grew up in a culture that assumed that "religion" was nearly a synonym for "belief", and learning to adapt to a different model takes time.

I spent like a decade flailing around with incoherent "belief" not getting anywhere before I started making progress, myself. :}

What I gather from this is I just need to start trying things?  I have always said I learn best by getting involved.  Like when someone tries to teach me about a game and I get confused.  They will say, "Let's just start playing and you will figure it out."  That might be what I need to do here, try one of these and see how it feels for me. I can do that.  Thanks for all the info/tips.  It really is helping.

 
Oh, especially if you're a learn by doing sort, you should probably try things and see what works.  Hang on, lemme find a link...

Jenett's seeking site, I don't know if someone's given you the link already, is here:  http://gleewood.org/seeking/

She's focused on religious witchcraft, as that's what she does, but there's a bunch of stuff there for figuring out how to organise your brain about things, and you may find the 'practices' section work going through and trying things in to see which tools work for you immediately.

Hello everyone.  I am new here and made a post in the Introductions board.  In that post I mentioned a whole lot of stuff and was informed that I might get better answers to questions if I split my questions into smaller groups and posted them in the appropriate boards.  I am exploring different religions trying to figure out where I belong, and paganism seems to closely relate to many of my beliefs.  This being a general pagan beginners board I feel this would be a good place for my two questions.  (Although I have a whole lot more, I'll save those for later.)

1st.  I feel I may fit into three parts of paganism.  Reconstructionist, Wiccan, and Druidry.  I have the most interest in Druidry so I want to start looking into that first.  Would any of you know where I could start?  Websites, reading materials, any kind of starters tip would help.  I'm coming from a Christian background so I am kind of in the dark about a lot of this.  I did some light research about paganism in general but I know that is a very broad spectrum.  I'd like some help in furthering that research.

2nd.  This is a question I've had in my head since looking into paganism.  I was told in the Intro board that being a vegetarian is not a requirement of being in some of these pagan religions.  My question is exactly how far does that go?  How frowned upon is a pagan who eats meat?  

I grew up in the southern United States and my dads side of the family are very big outdoorsmen. My family members are avid fly fishermen.  Is that something that is frowned upon?  I know some parts of paganism believe that no animals should be harmed and fishing is harming an animal.  What if the fish is used for food though?  

I have a strong connection with nature, and always have since I was a kid.  I love hiking and camping.  I've always enjoyed being in nature.  There are many times I will go out and just sit in nature and just listen to it. I feel a connection to it and that is one thing that made me think paganism is the way to go.  Just, I eat meat and fish from time to time.

 
I am not a vegetarian personally, though I have given it some thought since I am an animist. (I eat meat and I see no problem with it at all from the standpoint of being a pagan though.)

Why do you want to become a vegetarian? You need to answer this question if you want to seriously put in the effort of changing your diet. If your goal is environmentalism, but most of your diet comes from annual grains rather than livestock fed on annual grains, then you're just choosing the lesser of two evils since grain production is really, really bad for the environment and you'd be better off eating food that comes from perennial plants that won't strain the ecosystem so much, or contribute to the loss of topsoil (not because there is anything wrong with grains per se, but because the modern large-scale farming of them simply isn't sustainable and is really, really damaging to the planet). However, cutting out both animal protein AND grains is very hard and will require a lot of planning, especially in nutrition. This reason would also cut out most sources of eggs and dairy.

Or do you not care so much about environmentalism, but don't want to see animals live in a feedlot? Look up your sources, find a good, ethical mom and pops farm somewhere where the animals are treated well, and buy in bulk and freeze everything. This is what I plan to do once I've gotten the space needed for a bigger freezer. Great farms exist, and they deserve every penny despite the fact that their meat might be more expensive!

Or perhaps you simply don't want to eat meat at all, but don't care about avoiding the grains, and don't care much about your sources of eggs and such? That's probably the easiest route TBH, but it is a goal that will be very different from the environmental route.

Give it some thought. WHat are your reasons for wanting to avoid meat?

Now Hinduism is another thing entirely. Many Indian Hindus are vegetarian. And if you eat cattle, especially in India, you are dead meat! (Or at least according to BBC radio.)

I don't know about non-India Hindu standards on eating meat or cattle, however.

 
I have been to an Indian restaurant that served beef cooked in Tandoori style, and although it is now illegal, male water buffalo were traditionally sacrificed to Kaali in some areas.

1st.  I feel I may fit into three parts of paganism.  Reconstructionist, Wiccan, and Druidry.  I have the most interest in Druidry so I want to start looking into that first.  Would any of you know where I could start?

It would be useful to know, that the Druid scene today, as it were, consists of several, originally distinct, currents. Druid can refer to each of these, or a mix thereof.

1. In 18th century England fraternal orders were a a very popular way of organizing associations for the purpose of socializing, cultural pursuits like poetry or music, charity, and (before the age of insurance companies, and in some cases) financial assistance for members whose health had deteriorated, or for surviving widows and children. From the 1760s, some of these fraternal orders took their inspiration from the Druids, but the oldest surviving of them - Ancient Order of Druids - was founded in 1781. In the 1830s, United Ancient Order of Druids split off. This type of Druids like dinners, folk music and donating means to charity, but they would be aghast if anyone thought that they were a Pagan organization. Members are expected to believe in a Supreme Being (i.e. any religious adherence would do). Local units are called groves.

2. In the second half of the 18th century, Scotspersons and Welsh living in England formed learned associations in order to research the history, literature and folklore of their home-countries. Out of that environment came Edward Williams (whose pen-name was Iolo Morganwg). Iolo was an avid collector of Welsh folklore, but he was also a skilful forger, who created poetry and lore he didn't take credit for. He organized a Druid cultural academy called the Gorsedd of Bards in 1792. Meanwhile, Thomas Jones arranged a cultural festival, the Eisteddfod in Wales in 1789, and when a National Eisteddfod emerged in 1858, Iolo's Gorsedd became closely associated to it. The Gorsedd is not a Pagan organization, but its rituals have inspired the ritual life of younger Druid associations with an esoteric or pagan profile. Famous members of the Gorsedd are Queen Elizabeth II, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, and the actor Ioan Gruffudd.

3. In the 1850s, some members of the Gorsedd, especially those in Pontypridd, organized Druid groups of their own, which held non-mainstream religious views, in part inspired by Iolo Morganwg's writings. To this current did Dr. William Price, Evan Davies (pseudonym: Myfyr Morganwg) and Owen Morgan (pseudonym: Morien) belong.

4. The esotericist and freemason Robert Wentworth-Little is known as the founder of several fraternal orders interested in western esotericism. He is also the alleged founder of the Ancient and Archaeological Order of Druids (1874), from which, later, the Literary and Ancient Order of Druids (1884), Ancient Order of Druids in America (1912), and Universal Druid Order (1960s) split off.

5. During the years 1909-1912 a druid order emerged, which later became known as Ancient Druid Order - British Circles of Universal Bond. The leader of the order was George Watson MacGregor-Reid. That order celebrated summer solstice at Stonehenge for many years. In 1932 the order was split into a Universalist church and a druid  order known as Order of Druid Hermeticists. At the death of George Watson MacGregor-Reid in 1946, his son Robert split the druid order. One branch continued under the name Order of Druid Hermeticists, and Robert's branch continued under the name Ancient Druid Order - British Circles of Universal Bond. The latter continued the tradition of celebrating summer solstice at Stonehenge, until the time of Margaret Thatcher. These orders are influenced by the Pontypridd druids and western esotericism.

6. Some members of Ancient Druid Order - British Circles of Universal Bond left it in 1964 and founded, under the leadership of Ross Nichols, Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids. Just as the formerly mentioned orders, OBOD welcomes members of many different religious convictions: Pagans, Christians, Jews, Deists, 'spiritual-but-not-religious', Buddhists, Pantheists et cetera. OBOD celebrates eight seasonal festivals annually, and it was Ross Nichols (who influenced Gerald Gardner in the late 1940s and early 1950s) who invented the Wheel of the Year - now very widespread in the Neo-Pagan community.

7. College students at Carleton College (Minnesota, U.S.A.) protested against mandatory participation in religious services in 1963, by founding Reformed Druids of North America (RDNA), but for some members the experience of outdoors meditation, ritual and free discussions fulfilled an existential purpose, so they continued after the obligation to participate in worship was lifted. The organization is intentionally very anarchic in organization, and encourages diverse views and practices among its members and local units, groves. Members are free to follow their conscience in religious matters, and the network is only united by the practice of sharing a symbolic chalice of water, The Waters of Life. Four, six or eight annual festivals are celebrated, originally focussing on Celtic deities from Gaul. To the ritual language of RDNA belongs the Earth Mother, the sky-father Be'al and the forest-spirit Dalon ap Landu, but memebers are free to interpret these as figures of speech or literlly, according to conscience. Unlike British Druidry, RDNA and its offsprings doesn't cast circles, out of the reason that all ground is sacred.

In the 1970s New Reformed Druids of North America, with a more consciously Pagan self-identification, split from RDNA. Out of that group emerged ADF. More recently, did Reformed Druids of Gaia emerge from the RDNA roots. Order of the Mithril Star (1996) is also related to RDNA and RDG.

8. Ár nDraíocht Féin is a Neo-Pagan Druid order which sacrifices to the deities of the Indo-European pantheons (each grove and individual selects one particular pantheon). ADF was founded by Isaac Bonewits in 1983.

Out of ADF did Henge of Keltria (exclusively Celtic) branch off in 1988.

9. Back in UK, British Order of Druids, was founded in 1979 by Philip Shallcrass. Although Neo-Pagan in character, it is on friendly terms with the older inclusive orders.

10. Secular Order of Druids was founded in UK in the mid-80s, because of the policy to keep celebrations away from Stonehenge by force. It is rather New Age in character. A similar order, Glastonbury Order of Druids, was founded in 1988. A Druid association very much concerned of the public availability of Stonenehge is the Loyal Arthurian Warband, emerged under the leadership of King Arthur Pendragon in the late 80s and early 90s.

11. Since the 1990s, the number of Neo-Pagan druid orders have exploded, often with a considerably more reconstructionist profile than the former ones. It wouldn't be possible to list them here.

A book you must read is Ronald Hutton's fascinating Blood and Mistletoe: The History of the Druids in Britain.