Author Topic: Druidry and Vegetarianism (Read 2456 times)

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #15 on:** January 23, 2016, 06:46:27 pm »

Quote from: Elding;184130

Nope, all animal sacrifice is illegal here, at least in Sweden. Even if you kill it according to all the regulating animal care laws.

The slaughter must be performed by a professional butcher in a licenced industrial building with the equipment to follow animal care laws, and that is not a surrounding suitable for religious practice. Have you tried pronouncing a declaratory formula of sacrifice over an animal before sending it to a butcher company, and using the meat ritually when it returns from the company?

Quote from: Elding;184130

Especially because Halal slaughter is perfectly legal...

Not unqualified and unmodified. There are rules about stunning the animal that must be fulfilled. I am not informed about the details.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2016, 12:33:04 am »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;185696

OBOD celebrates eight seasonal festivals annually, and it was Ross Nichols (who influenced Gerald Gardner in the late 1940s and early 1950s) who invented the Wheel of the Year - now very widespread in the Neo-Pagan community.

Since your overview was so complete and otherwise excellent, I'll pick a small nit here: as I've heard it (I think initially from Doreen Valiente's writings, but since then from a variety of sources from both the British Druidic and BTWiccan communities), Nichols and Gardner were mutually influential, and their groups occasionally did ritual together in the early '50s. Each group at the time was using a cycle of four seasonal festivals; one did solstices/equinoxes, and the other did cross-quarters. The group members found that gathering more frequently, as they did for the joint rituals, suited them, and Nichols and Gardner ran with it, adopting the eight-festival wheel as an official part of their traditions.

(Or as one individual of my e-quaintance memorably put it, 'Nichols sold Gardner - or maybe it was the other way round - the WotY for one pound sterling and other valuable considerations.')

Sunflower

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2016, 08:13:13 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;185708

Since your overview was so complete and otherwise excellent, I'll pick a small nit here: as I've heard it (I think initially from Doreen Valiente's writings, but since then from a variety of sources from both the British Druidic and BTWiccan communities), Nichols and Gardner were mutually influential

Your knowledge about anything witchy and Wiccan is of course much deeper than anything I am able to peek into as an outsider.

Concerning practice among modern Druids, the ADO-BCUB of Robert MacGregor-Reid continued to celebrate just the equinoxes and solstices, following the speculations of Iolo Morganwg in this regard. Both Nichols and Gardner were members of ADO-BCUB in the 1940s and 1950s.

I do not know how reliable the alleged excerpts from Gardner's rituals floating around online are. Rituals for the Irish festivals are dated to as early as 1949.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/gbos07.htm
Equinox- and solstice-rituals are dated to 1957.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/gbos28.htm

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that I - years ago - read an article on OBODs website, claiming that Nichols had began bringing the equinoxes, solstices and Irish festivals together into an eightfold cycle already in the 1940s, but that he hadn't the opportunity to bring his theoretical construct into practice, until OBOD was founded in 1964. It is, of course, possible that OBOD tries to enhance the importance of its own founder, but, since OBOD sits on many unpublished manuscripts of Nichols in their archives, we possibly have to trust OBOD in the matter. The short excerpt from Nichols' The Cosmic Shape (1946) republished in Greer's The Druid Revival Reader (2011) still follows a fourfold pattern focussed on equinoxes and solstices, but the August customs surrounding John Barleycorn are mentioned.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2016, 08:28:55 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;185708

Since your overview was so complete and otherwise excellent, I'll pick a small nit here: as I've heard it (I think initially from Doreen Valiente's writings, but since then from a variety of sources from both the British Druidic and BTWiccan communities), Nichols and Gardner were mutually influential, and their groups occasionally did ritual together in the early '50s.

I may also add, that All Souls' Day is given a mention in 1946, together with the slightly surprising St. George's Day (23th of April), a week before Beltane.

Littlewolf · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2016, 11:03:25 am »

Quote from: SirMathias007;183930

Ok, so looks like me being a meat eater will not be a problem. Great.

Now my first question still stands, but I did do some research into Druidry last night. I found out there are three parts to it. bards, Ovates and Druids. I'm not sure exactly how I fit into any of those three. Although I do have an interest in learning about herbs. The interesting thing was that while looking into Druidry I noticed other connections. Reconstructionist that are Celtic, are kind of similar. Something about Celtic neopagans? and even Celtic Wiccans. I feel I may fit better into one of these other parts.

I'm about 85% positive I want to go down some Celtic path due to my ancestry in Ireland and possible England. (Ireland is known and proven thanks to my aunts genealogy research. England is only passed down by mouth.) So I definitely want to go the Celtic route, maybe even learn more about the Celtic deities. Again I am not sure where to start. Is there a board on here where I can list certain beliefs and people tell me where I might fit according to my list? I just feel like paganism is such a huge thing that I'm getting a bit overwhelmed.

Firstly, Pagan just means not an Abrahamic religion, and Celtic refers to a collection of Indo-European tribes that spoke similar languages.
To answer your first question, bards, Ovates, and Druids. From what i understand these are not three different types of Druids, they are stages in training. If you want to be a Druid then you would start out as a Bard and memorize all the songs and histories, this probably differed regionally since not all Celts had the exact same beliefs. Becoming a Druid is a long and difficult process, and you don't have to be a Druid to worship or read ogham staves.

Now as to where and how to learn about the Druid and Celtic faiths, again their are many different types of Celts so different gods, traditions, and histories. You say you are of Irish decent so that may be a good place to start. You're most likely to find information of Irish and Welsh religions, but do not put too much stock in what you find since a lot of information can be completely inaccurate or just guess work. I can recommend a good source for Irish legends, a book by Lady Gregory "Gods and Fighting Men".

There may be a local ADF that you can visit and they can give you advice and ideas, if you decide to take the druid path you might be able to find a mentor there. There is also a SIGS on this site dedicated for Celtic religions where you can gather more information. This website may also be useful, http://www.druidry.org/

You can dip your toe in by learning ogham, memorizing the meanings of trees, practing reading ogham staves, researching the Irish Celtic Gods and maybe find a Patron Diety. I think the last one is a relatively recent practice but i know Druids who have Patrons. When interpreting Gods and modern Druidry it is worth considering that the first Celts lived and worshiped differently from the later Celts.

Best of luck to you.

Allaya · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2016, 11:05:31 am »

Quote from: StagTracker;185693

If anything the only problem I have is when I see a statue of Cernunnos, Herne, or other horned deity of European origin depicted with whitetail antlers. Especially if it's Elen of the Ways... a reindeer/caribou goddess with whitetail or mule deer antlers. GAH! Hehehehehehe.

I am glad I am not the only one who finds the swapped antlers to be utterly asinine.

Allaya · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2016, 11:24:52 am »

Quote from: SirMathias007;183930

I'm about 85% positive I want to go down some Celtic path due to my ancestry in Ireland and possible England. (Ireland is known and proven thanks to my aunts genealogy research. England is only passed down by mouth.) So I definitely want to go the Celtic route, maybe even learn more about the Celtic deities. Again I am not sure where to start. Is there a board on here where I can list certain beliefs and people tell me where I might fit according to my list? I just feel like paganism is such a huge thing that I'm getting a bit overwhelmed.

If you're interested in "going the Celtic route" because of the blood connection, then it might be of interest to you to go back to your aunt's genealogical papers and see exactly where in Ireland your ancestors came from.

Why?

Ireland is not homogeneous. For example, if your blood is from anywhere around Dublin you might not be as Irish as you think you are. Dublin was controlled by vikings for several hundred years and, interestingly, some areas seem to have been insular enough to preserve the genetics.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2016, 01:22:22 pm »

Quote from: SirMathias007;183930

Now my first question still stands, but I did do some research into Druidry last night. I found out there are three parts to it. bards, Ovates and Druids. I'm not sure exactly how I fit into any of those three. Although I do have an interest in learning about herbs. The interesting thing was that while looking into Druidry I noticed other connections. Reconstructionist that are Celtic, are kind of similar. Something about Celtic neopagans? and even Celtic Wiccans. I feel I may fit better into one of these other parts.

There are three parts to it in some modern Druid orders, but that is not a universal rule even within inclusive Druidry.

OBOD arrange itself in a three-step system of Bards, Ovates and Druids (in that order), but some of the older orders (and some newer orders imitating the old ones) have a three-step system of Ovates, Bards and Druids - in that order.

RDNA doesn't organize itself in that way: There are three degrees called orders, but they are all 'Druidic' in nature, and only regulate which official positions a member is able to hold witin their local grove.

AODA have four degrees - Candidate, Druid Apprentice, Druid Companion and Druid Adept.

Both the Druid Revival style Druidry and the Celtic Reconstructionist style Druidry have their own advantages and pitfalls.

At its best, Druid Revival style Druidry transmits sets of techniques for personal deveopment, which have been refined and tested for decades or centuries, and retaining structural patterns for order governance, that safeguards against power abuse. Veneration for Nature is a central aspect of this type of Druidry. It is a living, breathing movement with historical roots as deep as the times of William Stukeley (1687-1765).

At its worst, Druid Revival style Druidry nourishes inability to distinguish between what 18th century Welsh romantics (or 19th century Theosophists) wrongly believed to be ancient Celtic beliefs, and what up-to-date research has found to be the case, and, in orders who have left traditional fraternal organizational patterns behind, there is a risk for power-abuse.

At its best, Celtic Reconstructionism style Druidry is based on top-of-the-notch level archaeological and historical research, bringing ancient Celtic religious practices to life in a way reasonably adapted to what is achievable today, and meaningful for 21st century persons.

At its worst, Celtic Reconstructionism style Druidry deteriorates into historical reenactment or LARP rather than spirituality, and, with a pretence of living Iron Age life today, failing to express a religion useful for 21st century persons. The inexperience with modes of organizing religious denominations may either lead to collapse, because of lack of structure, or power-abuse, because of lack of safeguards against that.

These four extremes are abstractions, and existing organizations probably falling somewhere in the middle, but it is useful to know which ideals to strive for and which dangers to be aware of.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2016, 08:24:06 am »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;185725

At its best, Celtic Reconstructionism style Druidry is based on top-of-the-notch level archaeological and historical research, bringing ancient Celtic religious practices to life in a way reasonably adapted to what is achievable today, and meaningful for 21st century persons.

At its worst, Celtic Reconstructionism style Druidry deteriorates into historical reenactment or LARP rather than spirituality, and, with a pretence of living Iron Age life today, failing to express a religion useful for 21st century persons. The inexperience with modes of organizing religious denominations may either lead to collapse, because of lack of structure, or power-abuse, because of lack of safeguards against that.

While these sound like fairly accurate descriptions of Celtic Reconstructionism, I don't know of any Druidic groups that are reconstructionist enough for these to apply. Do you have examples you can cite?

Sunflower

SunflowerP · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2016, 10:57:34 am »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;185713

I do not know how reliable the alleged excerpts from Gardner's rituals floating around online are. Rituals for the Irish festivals are dated to as early as 1949.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/gbos07.htm
Equinox- and solstice-rituals are dated to 1957.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/gbos28.htm

Not very reliable, though I won't get into details here; it's rather too far off the original topic of the thread. It does - along with some of the other info you provide - serve to confirm what I'd suspected (and may have once known more certainly but have since become hazy on; either way, I'd refrained from specifying in my earlier post), that Gardner's group were the ones celebrating the cross-quarters, and Nichols' group the solstices/equinoxes. And it's pretty definite that Gardner's people were using an eight-festival cycle not later than '57, since that was the year Doreen Valiente left his group, and her own subsequent practice included all eight.

Quote

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that I - years ago - read an article on OBODs website, claiming that Nichols had began bringing the equinoxes, solstices and Irish festivals together into an eightfold cycle already in the 1940s, but that he hadn't the opportunity to bring his theoretical construct into practice, until OBOD was founded in 1964. It is, of course, possible that OBOD tries to enhance the importance of its own founder, but, since OBOD sits on many unpublished manuscripts of Nichols in their archives, we possibly have to trust OBOD in the matter.

I started a response to this, then decided to go poke around on the OBOD site myself - where I was rather surprised to learn that Nichols didn't become a member of the ADO until 1954, nor was he a member of any other Druidic organization before then; as far as I can tell from OBOD's bio of him, before that point, his interests in nature-based spirituality and so on were pursued independently, without a specific structure. So while it's entirely possible that he was considering the viability of an eight-festival structure as early as the '40s (I'm not sure if that can be established, unless his 1946 essay referred to in the bio is available and contains indications), it's unlikely to have been an inherently Druidic structure, except insofar as his personal inclinations can be considered to have been innately Druidic.

That definitely changes my assumptions about the timing of the joint celebrations - 'mid-'50s' must be more accurate than 'early '50s'. Still, they mean there's something off about the article you recall, whether it's that your memory of it has faded or that OBOD's reportage was imperfect; while those rituals weren't instances of an integratedly Druidic celebration of the cross-quarters, they are an instance of bringing the eightfold construct into practice, a proof-of-concept at the basic level.

Sunflower

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2016, 02:22:47 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;185752

I started a response to this, then decided to go poke around on the OBOD site myself - where I was rather surprised to learn that Nichols didn't become a member of the ADO until 1954 ...

That detail surprises me, too. I know that he was an acquaintance of Gardner before 1954. Was it by their common interest in naturism they learned to know each other before 1954? I have to revise my former impression of Nichols as one of the persons who caused the split between Order of Druid Hermeticists and OBOD. If he joined in 1954, he can not be one of the perpetrators.

Quote from: SunflowerP;185752

So while it's entirely possible that he was considering the viability of an eight-festival structure as early as the '40s (I'm not sure if that can be established, unless his 1946 essay referred to in the bio is available and contains indications)...

Solstices, equinoxes, John Barleycorn and All Souls are mentioned as parts of a seasonal pattern in the 1946 essay. Imbolc and Beltene are not.

Quote from: SunflowerP;185752

... it's unlikely to have been an inherently Druidic structure, except insofar as his personal inclinations can be considered to have been innately Druidic...

I am inclined to define it as innately Druidic. Nichols' seasonal interpretations of Arthurian tales in 1946 are typical for the type of speculation that was current in Meso-Druidic environments of the time.

Quote from: SunflowerP;185752

Still, they mean there's something off about the article you recall, whether it's that your memory of it has faded or that OBOD's reportage was imperfect;

It is certainly my memory that has faded. I try to keep it clear. I do not always succeed.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2016, 02:31:57 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;185749

While these sound like fairly accurate descriptions of Celtic Reconstructionism, I don't know of any Druidic groups that are reconstructionist enough for these to apply. Do you have examples you can cite?

Sunflower

I have not travelled enough to have any first-hand experience of any such group. The 'flavour' of Brendan Cathbad Myers' excellent book The Mysteries of Druidry probably comes closest. Do you have any experience of Order of the WhiteOak? They present themselves as very reconstructionist (my paraphrase, not their exact choice of words), but I have no experience of how they are in reality. As far as I know, they are not active on my side of The Atlantic. Please also notice that I wrote:

Quote

These four extremes are abstractions, and existing organizations probably falling somewhere in the middle...

The dangers are there, and the ideals. Both types of Druidry have their own risks and advantages.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #27 on:** January 26, 2016, 04:56:56 pm »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;185757

That detail surprises me, too. I know that he was an acquaintance of Gardner before 1954. Was it by their common interest in naturism they learned to know each other before 1954?

OBOD bio says, 'probably'. Well, more specifically that they probably met at Spielplatz, Britain's first naturist community.

Quote

Solstices, equinoxes, John Barleycorn and All Souls are mentioned as parts of a seasonal pattern in the 1946 essay. Imbolc and Beltene are not.

Okay, so definitely moving in that direction, but not actually there yet. Lots of time in there (between '46 and, say, '54) for him to develop his ideas that way, though.

Myself, I'm sticking to the 'mutual influence' hypothesis, in which Nichols and Gardner inspired each other to the point where even they might not have been able to say definitely which of them originated a particular idea.

Quote

I am inclined to define it as innately Druidic. Nichols' seasonal interpretations of Arthurian tales in 1946 are typical for the type of speculation that was current in Meso-Druidic environments of the time.

Yes, and there's the 'by definition' angle, where Nichols was already thinking in the directions that would later form the basis of OBOD; and the perspective in which his internal sense of things was clearly proto-neoPagan - so, yes, I agree.

Quote

It is certainly my memory that has faded. I try to keep it clear. I do not always succeed.

Yeah, same here. I think it's partly because the history of the neoPagan movement is so complex; hard to keep all of it in mind without losing details - and the details are so often what matters. But some of it's just the limitations of the human brain.

Sunflower

SunflowerP · « **Reply #28 on:** January 26, 2016, 07:47:00 pm »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;185758

I have not travelled enough to have any first-hand experience of any such group. The 'flavour' of Brendan Cathbad Myers' excellent book The Mysteries of Druidry probably comes closest. Do you have any experience of Order of the WhiteOak? They present themselves as very reconstructionist (my paraphrase, not their exact choice of words), but I have no experience of how they are in reality. As far as I know, they are not active on my side of The Atlantic.

I know of OWO - a look at their website to refresh my memory indicates that they do in fact describe themselves as a 'Reconstructionist Druid organization' on their front page. On the other hand, their 'About' page refers to them as 'a Celtic Reconstructionist group', which is a closer fit with everything else about how they describe themselves; I can't see what it is that makes them druidic other than that they sometimes use the word.

Quote

Please also notice that I wrote:

Quote
These four extremes are abstractions, and existing organizations probably falling somewhere in the middle...

The dangers are there, and the ideals. Both types of Druidry have their own risks and advantages.

So you did, but that's not where the issue lies here; it's that you say 'Celtic Reconstructionism style Druidry', but go on to describe the extreme modes of Celtic Reconstructionism itself. Most (IME, all) CRs are quite explicit that they are not druidic (or if they are both CR and druidic, that their druidry is not reconstructionist), and usually explain that there's just not enough known about the ancient druids to effectively apply reconstructionist methodology to.

I would have to know more about just what OWO means when they use the word 'druid' to be certain where they fall on the spectrum. It might be that they're expressing earnest intentions of going beyond what most CR groups do, and including the very little that's known about ancient druids into what they apply reconstruction to as best they can, rather than excluding it as unreconstructable; if so, they're probably as close an approximation as we're likely to find to your positive extreme.

Just about any other meaning would, I think, veer into 'negative extreme' territory in some way - whether by succumbing to Romanticist oversimplification about ancient Celtic religious practices and the role of druids in Celtic life, or by being less than honest (with themselves or with others) about what's reconstructed and what's invented to bridge the gaps, or by some other form of not-as-recon-as-they-claim. You didn't include anything like that in your 'negative extreme' description, but it might be worth doing (not just to make it more druidry-specific, either, but because it's one of the failure modes of recon polytheism generally).

Sunflower

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