collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy  (Read 5024 times)

Zephyrine

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« on: December 05, 2015, 06:09:42 pm »
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

My father was an arborist and landscaper so our entire lives revolved around the seasons. Nature wasn't "good", it was just a powerful and mysterious force that governed our entire lives. There were times when it was beautiful and times when it was terrifying (ice storms, whiteouts, thunderstorms etc).

Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.

LunaStar

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 100
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 07:07:57 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

My father was an arborist and landscaper so our entire lives revolved around the seasons. Nature wasn't "good", it was just a powerful and mysterious force that governed our entire lives. There were times when it was beautiful and times when it was terrifying (ice storms, whiteouts, thunderstorms etc).

Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.

Why are you generalizing?  Pagans come in all shapes, colors, sizes, interests and just about any path one could imagine and more.  Likewise, many non-pagans fall into these "fallacies" you mention.  Since you identify as pagan (it's specified as your religion) do you consider yourself a sucker for anything labeled organic?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 07:09:08 pm by LunaStar »

Lana288

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • *
  • Posts: 255
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 07:40:12 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

My father was an arborist and landscaper so our entire lives revolved around the seasons. Nature wasn't "good", it was just a powerful and mysterious force that governed our entire lives. There were times when it was beautiful and times when it was terrifying (ice storms, whiteouts, thunderstorms etc).

Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.

 
I'm not actually sure what you're asking. I don't think it's fluffyism to regard nature as being innately good any more than it's fluffyism to regard, say, all people as being innately good. It's not an idea that I personally subscribe to, but it's not a bad philosophy in of itself.

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2015, 08:56:54 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.

 
Urban pagan, here. Yes, it's a contradiction in etymological terms, but I am. And maybe some of it was an admiration for the idea of something wild/old/other that predates civilization--but that can be admired from the safety of modern conveniences, in maybe a "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" mode. Maybe nature had once been considered a terrible thing, red in tooth and claw, and what you witness is simply the opposite polarization of that.

But now, personally, a lot of it is recognition that nature isn't something we actually ever escape, and we must acknowledge ourselves as a part of that whole because if we put non-civilization under a Somebody Else's Problem field then it will eventually become a problem that affects everybody...devastatingly.

If another pagan's view of nature moved them to such ecstatic adulation, then that's where they are. It's none of my business how they got there, as long as they're not calling me fluffy for having a "modernist fallacy". Why should I want to tell somebody else that they're wrong for finding what makes them happy, or living their lives in the best way they know how?

If there's something in the production of marketed "organic" products that does more harm than good or isn't honest, then it's likely they'd want to know about it, but it's not something I'd look up and throw at them just because I don't want somebody to be too happy. It's their life and lifestyle, not mine.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015, 01:32:20 am »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

My father was an arborist and landscaper so our entire lives revolved around the seasons. Nature wasn't "good", it was just a powerful and mysterious force that governed our entire lives. There were times when it was beautiful and times when it was terrifying (ice storms, whiteouts, thunderstorms etc).

Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.

 
Are you talking about some other place? Perhaps a different forum, or Polytheistic groups you've met in real life, because I don't know anyone in the forum who is that 'fluffy'. In fact, I imagine that to most of the participants here this post would be stating the obvious.

So I'm assuming that this has some relevancy to a real-life encounter, in which case some context might help.

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 01:46:12 am »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

My father was an arborist and landscaper so our entire lives revolved around the seasons. Nature wasn't "good", it was just a powerful and mysterious force that governed our entire lives. There were times when it was beautiful and times when it was terrifying (ice storms, whiteouts, thunderstorms etc).

Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.


Young and alone on a long road,
Once I lost my way:
Rich I felt when I found another;
Man rejoices in man,


Trust not an acre early sown,
Nor praise a son too soon:
Weather rules the acre, wit the son,
Both are exposed to peril,

A snapping bow, a burning flame,
A grinning wolf, a grunting boar,
A raucous crow, a rootless tree,
A breaking wave, a boiling kettle,
A flying arrow, an ebbing tide,
A coiled adder, the ice of a night,
A bride's bed talk, a broad sword,
A bear's play, a prince' s children,
A witch' s welcome, the wit of a slave,
A sick calf, a corpse still fresh,
A brother's killer encountered upon
The highway a house half-burned,
A racing stallion who has wrenched a leg,
Are never safe: let no man trust them.

-Havamal
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 01:46:38 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Megatherium

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 68
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Heathen(ish)
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 01:37:07 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

My father was an arborist and landscaper so our entire lives revolved around the seasons. Nature wasn't "good", it was just a powerful and mysterious force that governed our entire lives. There were times when it was beautiful and times when it was terrifying (ice storms, whiteouts, thunderstorms etc).

Is this just fluffyism? For me, respecting nature is paramount but nature itself is neither good nor bad. It just is.


I can't speak for anyone else, but looking at the view of nature among historical Heathen populations, I think there was very much an idea that the wilderness was something to be respected, but also very much to be feared.

I think the idea of holiness or the sacred was very much rooted in the idea of a proper functioning community. The wilderness was sort of "out there" and a place of great potential danger. I think people made offerings to land wights who were present  in the surrounding areas just outside of the community, but this was to ensure the benefits of such offerings flowed into one's human community.

That being said, I'm sure humans of all ages and faiths have found beauty and awe in natural landscapes, and the veneration of nature in many modern pagan traditions is, I think, a very reasonable effort to retain the importance of the natural world among populations that have been cut off from it to some extent by urbanization and modernity.

Personally, feelings of respect and awe towards the natural world are an important part of my spiritual life. For me, the historical Heathen notion that the Gods are/can be immanent in the world rather than completely transcendent beings leads to an identification of deities, to some extent, with the natural forces they influence.

For example, when I visit the Rockies, I identify them as holy - in and of themselves, as the home to various wights/landvaettir, and as the realm under the influence of Skadi. However, the respect I feel towards the mountains absolutely requires a healthy level of fear, because the mountains are ultimately not a "safe" space for me in the same way my home is.

The mountains are more than worthy of my respect, but that respect must include an acknowledgement of the fact that my well-being is not their primary concern.
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
-George W. Bush

HarpingHawke

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • *
  • Posts: 1531
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 16
    • View Profile
  • Religion: shapeshifting, witchery, polytheism. under endless construction.
  • Preferred Pronouns: they/them
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2015, 12:10:48 am »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183205
I've noticed since a lot of pagans are white collar city folk that there seems to be this idea of the Pagan weekend warrior "getting back to nature" and an sentimental notion of nature and the natural world.

Pagans seem to be suckers for anything labeled organic or natural: the old fallacy that what is natural is good.

 
A lot of modern paganism finds its roots in the Romantic Movement. A hallmark of Romanticism is the nature=benevolent paradigm.

However, IMO, we create the best paths for ourselves when we draw from our own experiences. This is one of those things that's neither right nor wrong, (hint hint--a lot of things are like that) and while some beliefs that fit with your path require some mental acrobatics, if the nature=benevolent paradigm doesn't *work* for the path you want to build, then leave it out. Plenty of us get along fine without it! :)

If it helps at all, I share a similar belief in the uh, nature of nature.

And the fact that you're doing all this thinking and learning, and asking questions instead of just sitting in a willful ignorance bubble makes me pretty confident that you're not displaying signs of fluffyism. ;)
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

Zephyrine

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2015, 04:57:41 pm »
Quote from: Yei;183228
Are you talking about some other place? Perhaps a different forum, or Polytheistic groups you've met in real life, because I don't know anyone in the forum who is that 'fluffy'. In fact, I imagine that to most of the participants here this post would be stating the obvious.

So I'm assuming that this has some relevancy to a real-life encounter, in which case some context might help.

I have some Pagan friends (one is Wiccan man who identifies as Pagan, one is a university student, who is the younger sister of a  friend, who identifies as Wiccan). They think working as a farmer, gardener, or landscaper is somehow romantic. I've done it and most of the time it's really just hard, dirty work.

My male friend seemed shocked that people who actually go to university to learn to become a farmer and that much of modern "family" farming is based on science, tradition, as well as traditional knowledge. His parents were academics who took them camping as kids so they could see the natural world.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 05:00:50 pm by Zephyrine »

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 05:43:34 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183273
I have some Pagan friends (one is Wiccan man who identifies as Pagan, one is a university student, who is the younger sister of a  friend, who identifies as Wiccan). They think working as a farmer, gardener, or landscaper is somehow romantic. I've done it and most of the time it's really just hard, dirty work.

My male friend seemed shocked that people who actually go to university to learn to become a farmer and that much of modern "family" farming is based on science, tradition, as well as traditional knowledge. His parents were academics who took them camping as kids so they could see the natural world.

 
Well that explains it. Don't worry. A season or two at it and they'll soon learn that respecting nature is different from idolising it.

Zephyrine

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2015, 06:28:03 pm »
Quote from: Yei;183277
Well that explains it. Don't worry. A season or two at it and they'll soon learn that respecting nature is different from idolising it.

 
The part of me that gets a bit angry and that I find a bit frustrating with the city dwelling Wiccans I know, is blaming people for their misfortunes because they weren't doing things "Naturally". My cousin suffered a massive crop failure because of a severe hailstorm (seriously, they were about the size of tennis balls).

My male Wiccan friend, who knows nothing about farming said crop failures wouldn't happen if my cousin had "diversified more". My cousin has a pretty diverse farm with apples, pumpkins, corn, and a variety of vegetables. She isn't a hobby farmer. She is a commercial family farmer and considered an expert in apple farming. Very few things could withstand that kind of hail.

He seemed to imply that if she had been a farmer like in the imaginary olden days, being at one with nature, without modern farming practices, her crops would have survived. But agricultural catastrophes happened all the time throughout history and people just starved to death back then.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2015, 07:11:16 pm »
Quote from: Zephyrine;183280
The part of me that gets a bit angry and that I find a bit frustrating with the city dwelling Wiccans I know, is blaming people for their misfortunes because they weren't doing things "Naturally". My cousin suffered a massive crop failure because of a severe hailstorm (seriously, they were about the size of tennis balls).


The thing about that, from my perspective, is that it's the same victim-blaming bullshit that's popular all over the place.  Or blaming hurricanes on the abortion rate, or earthquakes on marriage equality.  Or "that's clearly their karma".  Or illnesses on people's weight.  Or anything else that lets someone say "Well, that won't happen to meeeeeeee because I'm not a siiiiiiiinner."

If you really want to piss those sorts off tell them they sound just like a televangelist telling people that all their problems will get better if they just get right with Jesus. ;)

Quote
He seemed to imply that if she had been a farmer like in the imaginary olden days, being at one with nature, without modern farming practices, her crops would have survived. But agricultural catastrophes happened all the time throughout history and people just starved to death back then.

 
There's a bloody reason the hail rune hagalaz means 'catastrophe'!
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9909
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 732
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2015, 07:40:49 pm »
Quote from: HarpingHawke;183249
A lot of modern paganism finds its roots in the Romantic Movement. A hallmark of Romanticism is the nature=benevolent paradigm.

 
Quoting Hawke, because what I have to say expands on what ze said, but addressing Zephyrine:

This article (it's very long, but well-worth the time) does a really good job describing how the connotations of 'nature' and 'wilderness' have shifted over time. It's from the perspective of environmentalism and doesn't refer to the neoPagan movement at all, but it's very much about the 'nature' aspect of the broader cultural stew from which neoPaganism emerged (and, incidentally, about how the naturalistic fallacy became pervasive in modern Western culture).

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 10:21:30 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;183288
This article (it's very long, but well-worth the time) does a really good job describing how the connotations of 'nature' and 'wilderness' have shifted over time.

That's a very interesting article with a lot opf details I didn't know about.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

Zephyrine

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 24
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Pagans and the naturalistic fallacy
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 12:34:37 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;183288

This article (it's very long, but well-worth the time) does a really good job describing how the connotations of 'nature' and 'wilderness' have shifted over time. It's from the perspective of environmentalism and doesn't refer to the neoPagan movement at all, but it's very much about the 'nature' aspect of the broader cultural stew from which neoPaganism emerged (and, incidentally, about how the naturalistic fallacy became pervasive in modern Western culture).

Sunflower

 
It really enjoyed that article and it did articulate some of the issues I have with some elements of the broader Pagan community.

This really struck me: "Why, for instance, is the ” wilderness experience” so often conceived as a form of recreation best enjoyed by those whose class privileges give them the time and resources to leave their jobs behind and “get away from it all?” Why does the protection of wilderness so often seem to pit urban recreationists against rural people who actually earn their living from the land (excepting those who sell goods and services to the tourists themselves)?"

"For one, it makes wilderness the locus for an epic struggle between malign civilization and benign nature, compared with which all other social, political, and moral concerns seem trivial. Foreman writes, “The preservation of wildness and native diversity is the most important issue. Issues directly affecting only humans pale in comparison.” (36) Presumably so do any environmental problems whose victims are mainly people, for such problems usually surface in landscapes that have already “fallen” and are no longer wild. This would seem to exclude from the radical environmentalist agenda problems of occupational health and safety in industrial settings, problems of toxic waste exposure on “unnatural” urban and agricultural sites, problems of poor children poisoned by lead exposure in the inner city, problems of famine and poverty and human suffering in the “overpopulated” places of the earth—problems, in short, of environmental justice."

Nature isn't the really the Other. It doesn't glisten with nobility. Nature is the entire world we live in, city, suburb, highway, town, wilderness, farm, sea. Mentally condoning off nature from civilization ultimately doesn't help people, flora or fauna who inhabit our world.

I remember when I lived in Toronto, a city of 3 million people, someone remarked that there were actually 10 million trees in the city, so many that in mid summer I could look off my grandfather's 14th story balcony and see mostly trees. The natural world isn't "out there"; it's everywhere.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
10 Replies
5661 Views
Last post June 24, 2012, 02:11:28 pm
by nancyrowina
0 Replies
2969 Views
Last post June 20, 2012, 12:03:33 pm
by LyricFox
0 Replies
3347 Views
Last post July 02, 2012, 10:37:53 am
by RandallS
5 Replies
1187 Views
Last post April 04, 2013, 08:15:53 am
by Violet Skies
14 Replies
2833 Views
Last post November 30, 2021, 08:58:39 pm
by Sefiru

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 208
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal