collapse

* Recent Posts

Re: "Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 10:58:24 am]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SirPalomides
[Today at 08:57:21 am]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:06:51 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 10:30:17 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Darkhawk
[Yesterday at 08:31:19 pm]

Author Topic: Studying the Hávamál  (Read 3146 times)

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Studying the Hávamál
« on: November 30, 2015, 12:58:07 am »
Recently I've been looking for advice within the Havamal for the questions that are posted here on TC, and I even considered making it a challenge for myself to only answer in relevant stanzas. And I've just been feeling really drawn to the idea of concise and tidy reminders of heathen spirituality rather than lengthy and involved reconstructionist-type explorations.    

However, I'm still a recon at heart, and I do want a more in-depth understanding of the Havamal, the context of it's stanzas, etc. So, naturally, I'm going to google-scholar the shit out of it!  

I don't know if anyone else is interested in studying it with me, but I thought I'd start a thread here for note-keeping, open discussion, and the sharing of information. If not, then don't mind me...I'll just be blathering away to myself in here. :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2015, 01:54:53 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183001

 I thought I'd start a thread here for note-keeping, open discussion, and the sharing of information.

 

Source: Canevaro, Lilah Grace. "Hesiod and Hávamál: Transitions and the Transmission of Wisdom." Oral Tradition 29.1 (2014).

Hávamál is [...] a wisdom poem with a composite structure.  It is made up not only of precepts and maxims but also elaborate mythological sections. It is associated with catalogic elements, which may be original or later accretions[.] And most interestingly it is [...] a poem rooted in oral tradition, but poised at that crucial juncture: the advent of writing.

Wisdom texts may be read from beginning to end, but they definitely lend themselves more readily to division and cherry-picking.



Havamal 81 begins a calendar of right times and right activities.  

Havamal uses metaphorical language to describe the different stages in life.

Odin teases the audience with what he knows that they do not:

Hávamál likewise gives a tantalizing glimpse into divine knowledge, making mortals yearn for more. Secondly, such strategies mean that the audience are not simply being spoon-fed facts, but are being forced to work for their lesson.

The intellectual gap between narrator and addressee thus creates a didactic hierarchy (the narrator has the upper hand), a positive paradigm to emulate (the narrator is the intellectual model), and a method of teaching based on intellectual self-sufficiency: thinking for oneself.


Havamal focuses on measure/balance of wisdom, drinking, and reciprocal relationships ("[H]ere the predominant strategy is frugality, rather than calculated largesse."). But it also focuses on being self-sufficient, so that one has a reciprocal relationship, but never a dependent one.)
 
As for Havamal's wariness of women, it's either a foreign idea to Nordic pagans and evidence of Christian influence, or a common grievance in agrarian societies.  (?)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2015, 12:04:19 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183002
As for Havamal's wariness of women, it's either a foreign idea to Nordic pagans and evidence of Christian influence, or a common grievance in agrarian societies.  (?)

Source: Knight, Dorian Robert Heaton. "A Giantess Deceived: A Reinvestigation into the Origins and Functions of Hávamál Stanzas 104-110 in the Light of Sacral Kingship." (2012).

The thesis illuminates stanzas 104-110 in Hávamál as a motif of initiation into sacral kingship by a comparison to the very same theme within Celtic mythology. Using Gísli Sigurðsson‟s premise that the oral background to much eddic poetry was more open to Gaelic influence than normally assumed[.]

In the application of a sacral kingship model to Old Icelandic myth, most
definitions cite hieros gamos as being a key feature whereby a god or king marries the country, which is personified as a woman.


The motif gained cultural currency, following the 5th century A.D., "when
royal lines and central rule achieved greater importance than before; when the ancient custom of sacrificing outside in groves and bogs was replaced by a cult much more closely linked to royal houses‟. Thus the motif proved very important
for royalist ideologies as the king wished to show that he represented a different type of being, and was a descendent of a god and a giantess, indicating "cosmic polarity‟.

Odin's visit to Gunnlod's mountain in Havamal differs from Snorri's account in several ways. First, Odin breaks out fo the mountain not into the mountain. Second, Gunnlod sits on a throne and presents Odin the mead, not reversed. Third, she is praised for her beauty and helpfulness. This would cast her in the role of a sovereignty figure.

The passing over of the mead by the female sovereignty figure to a hero or god is considered a "magical‟ act by many archaic societies.



It seems more likely that Havamal depicts a sacred ritual wedding than a deception. The wedding with Gunnlod marks an initiation:

The mythic process that brings the numinous object from the liminal phase into the final phase can be understood as a symbolic expression of death and rebirth; it is only through Óðinn‟s direct contact with feminine sexuality in the form of sexual intercourse and a wedding with Gunnlöð that liberates the numinous object into his grasp and therefore into the world of the gods.

Analogous Oppositional Pairs: Life-Death, Upperworld-Underworld, manifest-active, latent-passive, masculine-feminine.

In all myths relating to the acquisition of a numinous object the purveyor of the object is a woman. The feminine as a semantic category in Old Icelandic culture is intrinsically linked with "chaos, wild nature or the irrational‟.

The mead might refer to the waters of life, fertility imagery would apply well to the development of a king during an initiation ceremony, where he is being imbued with sacral power, which is what the poem seems to be describing.


Something goes wrong and Odin deceives the giantess and no offspring is produced. This may mean that these verses serve as a parody of sacral kingship. Gunnell believes these mock rituals and parodies occur when the sacred meaning has lost it's religious import in society, but still serves as a cultural tradition.


---I do think the ritual practice of god/king marrying the land can be a useful tool in modern heathenry, especially for the Non-European sort, which often seems insecure about where it stands compared to the native spiritual landscape?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 12:04:47 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2015, 12:09:00 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183002

Havamal focuses on measure/balance of wisdom, drinking, and reciprocal relationships ("[H]ere the predominant strategy is frugality, rather than calculated largesse."). But it also focuses on being self-sufficient, so that one has a reciprocal relationship, but never a dependent one.)
 

 
I was thinking about this last night, especially as it relates to the recirpocal relationship between man and god.

Would it then be better to be "frugal" with the gods then to "beg" at their altars? Does the concept that gods do not bother much with individual people, but with the big picture, correspond to the idea that one should not be dependent on the relationships with others? Where could you find balance between  reciprocity and dependency?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015, 01:18:04 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183002
As for Havamal's wariness of women, it's either a foreign idea to Nordic pagans and evidence of Christian influence, or a common grievance in agrarian societies.  (?)

Source: Larrington, Carolyne. "“What Does Woman Want?” Mær und Munr in Skírnismál." Alvíssmál 1 (1992): 3-16.
 
Mitchell’s Lévi-Straussian identification of woman with gift (Mitchell 1983, 116–17) overlooks the fundamental difference between gift-objects and women, noticed by Norse poets and illustrated, with comic irritation, by Hávamál 90. Women have minds of their own:

[So is the love of women,
 those who think falsely,
 like driving a horse with unspiked hooves
 on slippery ice,
 a frisky two-year-old,
 and badly broken-in,
 or in a raging wind,
 steering a rudderless boat,
 or having to catch when lame
 a reindeer on a thawing hillside.]

Though the man seeks to control the woman, driving her like a horse or a boat, she is intent on going in quite a different direction. What the man defines as “flátt hyggia” [thinking falsely] is in fact the woman’s sense of herself as autonomous subject. Women do not always cooperate with the patriarchal plan.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 01:18:43 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 01:39:48 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183002

As for Havamal's wariness of women, it's either a foreign idea to Nordic pagans and evidence of Christian influence, or a common grievance in agrarian societies.  (?)


Source: Friðriksdóttir, Jóhanna Katrín. "Hyggin ok Forsjál. Wisdom and Women’s Counsel in Hrólfs saga Gautrekssonar." Making History: Essays on the Fornaldarsögur (2010): 69-84.

The association of women with wisdom, knowledge and good counsel is
by no means unique to Hrólfs saga Gautrekssonar or the fornaldarsögur;
many such examples can be found in Old Norse literature. [...] The gnomic poem Hávamál portrays women as horscar ‘wise’ when it advises men on how to seduce them by flattery and deception (st. 91):

[when we speak most fairly, then we think most falsely,
that entraps the wise mind.]

In the same poem Billings mær, described with epithets such as iþ ráð-spaka ‘sagacious woman’ (st. 102) and in horsca mær ‘wise girl’ (st. 96), shows wisdom, tact and resourcefulness in eluding Óðinn’s advances.5



-----


The Old Norse Hávamál in Modern Norwegian Folk Song (Albert Morey Sturtevant, 1910) is an interesting read on how a modern  folk song performed by men and women echoes the Havamal. The men tease women for being like a "colt, boat, and reinder", while the women tease men for flattery, seduction, and adandonment (Odin and the Giantess).
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 09:35:24 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183001
Recently I've been looking for advice within the Havamal for the questions that are posted here on TC, and I even considered making it a challenge for myself to only answer in relevant stanzas.


Hi, I've been following this thread! :) I just thought to ask for clarification if the "composite structures" of the stanzas that you've been replying in lately...would be related to Galdrs?

(If the answer is not too personal for you to share comfortably) Does your dyslexia interface with or influence your relationship to these verse forms, or verse form in general?
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2015, 01:14:15 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;183234
Hi, I've been following this thread! :) I just thought to ask for clarification if the "composite structures" of the stanzas that you've been replying in lately...would be related to Galdrs?



I'm not entirely sure? A galdr is a spell or incantation, and the Havamal is gnomic, or wisdom literature. It lists spells, but isn't a spell itself.

But that's a good area to focus on next!

Quote
(If the answer is not too personal for you to share comfortably) Does your dyslexia interface with or influence your relationship to these verse forms, or verse form in general?

 
Some of the stanzas can read like Greek to me, especially when littered with a lot of abstract articles or prepositions, but generally the stanzas are evocative enough and contained enough that they don't really pose too many problems out of the ordinary.


This stanza is a good example of that:

It is time to sing in the seat of the wise,
Of what at Urd's Well I saw in silence,
saw and thought on.
Long I listened to men
Runes heard spoken, (counsels revealed.)
At Har's hall, In Har's hall:
There I heard this.



The repetitiveness and run on articles makes it difficult to read through and that makes it difficult to form a mental picture of what's being said. The bolded words are what stick out at me in a jarring way, in such a way that it's as if they aren't connected anymore to the rest of the idea.


Edit: "Of what at" are all mostly abstract. When you read "cat" it connects to a concrete image of a cat. "Of" doesn't connect to anything concrete, neither does "what", and "at" only a little more so. But "Of what at" becomes a nonsense string of words that form a mental block. If that explains it a little better.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 01:20:39 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9911
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 736
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2015, 09:19:58 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183236
Edit: "Of what at" are all mostly abstract. When you read "cat" it connects to a concrete image of a cat. "Of" doesn't connect to anything concrete, neither does "what", and "at" only a little more so. But "Of what at" becomes a nonsense string of words that form a mental block. If that explains it a little better.

 
I think that's a poetic-structure thing. 'Of what at' isn't a coherent phrase, but a chance juxtaposition of words resulting from fitting the sentence to the scansion. Commas would help - 'Of what, at Urd's Well, I saw...' - and a different sentence structure would help more - 'Of what I saw, at Urd's well...,' but at that point it's not in the culturally-proper poetic form at all.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2015, 11:25:42 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;183244
I think that's a poetic-structure thing. 'Of what at' isn't a coherent phrase, but a chance juxtaposition of words resulting from fitting the sentence to the scansion. Commas would help - 'Of what, at Urd's Well, I saw...' - and a different sentence structure would help more - 'Of what I saw, at Urd's well...,' but at that point it's not in the culturally-proper poetic form at all.

Sunflower

 

Yeah, that makes sense. I think the frustration for dyslexics is that getting stuck on things like that interrupts the flow of information and makes it hard to relate words to one another, which is a different type of difficulty then decoding an awkward turn of  phrase. It can be frustrating sometimes.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Ulfsdottir

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jan 2016
  • Posts: 14
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Studying the Hávamál
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 01:20:28 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;183001
I don't know if anyone else is interested in studying it with me, but I thought I'd start a thread here for note-keeping, open discussion, and the sharing of information. If not, then don't mind me...I'll just be blathering away to myself in here. :)

 
Hi there, I just started reading through the Havamal myself, and the notes and discussions already posted in this thread is a big help! I'm eager to read on and see if I can contribute anything to the discussion.
Give Praise to the day at evening, To a woman on her pyre, To a weapon which is tried, To a maid at wed lock, To ice when \'tis crossed, To ale that is drunk. - Hávamál 81

Also known by my Kemetic Orthodoxy name Gezemyinepu (Gez)- "Anointed by Anubis"

Divined a daughter of Anpu and Wepwawet; Beloved of Sekhmet and Hethert.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
2894 Views
Last post August 01, 2011, 01:46:22 pm
by HeartShadow
11 Replies
3245 Views
Last post November 17, 2011, 01:52:09 am
by Micheál
25 Replies
4984 Views
Last post May 23, 2013, 04:17:30 pm
by Jujulinda
9 Replies
2362 Views
Last post November 14, 2014, 01:07:46 am
by MattyG
3 Replies
4608 Views
Last post May 06, 2018, 03:20:22 am
by Froði Ingsson

Special Interest Group

Warning: You are currently in a Special Interest Group on the message board with special rules and focused discussions.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 225
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal