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Author Topic: Paris Under Siege  (Read 8848 times)

Juniperberry

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2015, 03:31:23 am »
Quote from: beachglass;182512
This is exactly what Daesh wants. It's a lot easier to radicalize oppressed people.

 
Just hanging this here.

I am literally overwhelmed right now by the amount of terrorist attacks and alerts spreading across the world. The Russian plane, Paris, Beruit, Nigeria, German stadium evacuated, the Barbie doll bombs, the Mali hostage situation, the evacuations and threat level alerts in Belgium. It has just been non-stop this week. It's 1am, my lizard brain is scared, and I just can't see how this doesn't end in war. ...It already is war.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

RandallS

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2015, 07:55:41 am »
Quote from: Ceath;182516
Verse 34 of Surah 4 of The Quran is a reason why many women are mistreated in the muslim world, I recommend people read and think about this verse.

http://quran.com/4/34

I realize all the bad verses in The Bible but most Jews/Christians do not take Bible literally. At this stage in the development of islam many muslims do appear to take the Quran literally.

First, proof texting can be done with any religious text (Bible, Qu'ran, Book of Mormon, etc.) and if the text is long enough, can be used to "prove" just about any position.

Second, there are a large number of Christians who do take the Bible literally -- many of them live in the US -- they are called Fundamentalists.  They are also common in parts of Africa where Fundamentalist Christian sects have done a lot of missionary work.

Third, you are trying to radicalize people against Muslims, the same thing Muslim extremists try to do against Christians. You probably are not trying to recruit terrorists, but otherwise you are doing the same thing.  You may think what you are doing is very different, but at its core it isn't.  Only the goal is slightly different.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 06:05:41 pm by RandallS »
Randall
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RandallS

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2015, 08:06:45 am »
Quote from: Ceath;182526
The constitution implies that black Americans are 3/5 human. If I believe that black people are fully human would that make my belief unconstitutional? If that is the case then I have no problem being unconstitutional. I have every right to believe black people are fully human even if the constitution goes against that.

And that part of the US Constitution has not been in effect for over 100 years.

Quote
And so this would make it so that we do not allow legal immigration from the entire muslim world. The policy itself though would not directly discriminate against muslims, it would be indirect and thus it would be constitutional.
Lots of things are constitutional that are bad policy, bad morality and just bad ideas. Unconstitutional usually means "bad idea" but the "constitutional" does not atumatically mean "good idea".

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As for the value of freedom of religion there are some religions that are not religions but are instead dangerous cults. The thuggee cult of India was made illegal by the british for instance.
Fortunately, the First Amendment prohibits the government from deciding what beliefs are real religions and which are not as that would be a form of establishment of religion. The Supreme Court has made this very clear.

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Also I would support colleges to train imams in more liberal interpretations of the Quran in order to foster a type of islam that is compatible with Western culture.
The government, however, cannot be involved in this as it would violate the First Amendment for them to do so. Again, the government CANNOT decide which religious beliefs get taught.

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If we do not do something to counteract the spread of radicalism within the islamic faith our civilization could face some very troubling situations in the future. By our civilization I refer to the western world. It is not moral to allow for troubling situations to evolve into existence. Islamic civilization is a historic rival of the western world and has made many attempts to colonize the west and import into the west its legal system.
IMHO, we don't need radicalization from either side. And this is an example of the type of statements used to radicalize people. The fact that is is coming from an anti-Muslim person instead of a pro-Muslim person does not change what it is: an attempt to radicalize people against another set of people.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 08:07:19 am by RandallS »
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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2015, 01:38:26 am »
Quote from: Ceath;182526
The islamic faith is a trojan horse for the political ideology of Sharia law.

 
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Ceath

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2015, 12:03:52 pm »
Quote from: Ceath;182526

The islamic faith is a trojan horse for the political ideology of Sharia law.

Quote from: SunflowerP;182595
*** MOD HAT ON ***
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Blanket condemnations of peoples, cultures, or religions, such as the above statement, are a violation of our rules. Consider this your first formal warning; the third will result in a temporary gag.

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Thanks for letting me know Sunflower. I won't discuss my opinions on islam anymore if I post on this forum. I am also glad to see that you consider my associating of Sharia law with islam to be a condemnation of islam, I definitely agree with you that Sharia law is evil. It's nice to see we are on the same page on that one. But sure, no more islam talk for while posting on this forum.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 12:05:47 pm by Ceath »

RandallS

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2015, 06:39:05 pm »
Quote from: Ceath;182610
Thanks for letting me know Sunflower. I won't discuss my opinions on islam anymore if I post on this forum. I am also glad to see that you consider my associating of Sharia law with islam to be a condemnation of islam, I definitely agree with you that Sharia law is evil. It's nice to see we are on the same page on that one. But sure, no more islam talk for while posting on this forum.

[mod=HOST HAT ON]Responding to a moderator call, especially to repeat the very violation you were called on, is a violation of forum rules. This is your second strike. Do not respond to this message in any way or discuss Islam on The Cauldron in the future.[/mod]
Randall
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Altair

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2015, 08:36:23 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182527
Just hanging this here.

I am literally overwhelmed right now by the amount of terrorist attacks and alerts spreading across the world. The Russian plane, Paris, Beruit, Nigeria, German stadium evacuated, the Barbie doll bombs, the Mali hostage situation, the evacuations and threat level alerts in Belgium. It has just been non-stop this week. It's 1am, my lizard brain is scared, and I just can't see how this doesn't end in war. ...It already is war.


Turn the news off. Seriously. The news media can distill this stuff into such concentrated form, repeated tirelessly, that one can overdose.

Go for a walk instead, and admire the sky. The world will still be falling apart when you get back, but you'll have had some fresh air and some perspective--enough to realize that the world has been falling apart for a couple of thousand years, but it's still here.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

Juniperberry

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2015, 09:48:31 pm »
Quote from: Altair;182632
Turn the news off. Seriously. The news media can distill this stuff into such concentrated form, repeated tirelessly, that one can overdose.

Go for a walk instead, and admire the sky. The world will still be falling apart when you get back, but you'll have had some fresh air and some perspective--enough to realize that the world has been falling apart for a couple of thousand years, but it's still here.


Thanks. I have been taking a break a bit the last few days. :)

I don't watch the news normally. I browse Reddit a lot, which tends to get news on its front page before any other source. There's usually multiple people online in the affected area with live streams going, with enough commenting (usually in the thousands) to get a nice *balanced* report on the situation.

I've been doing a lot of reading on ISIS lately, trying to be as aware as possible, and I think it was just depressing-info-overload. It got to me a bit.

When I saw that a Russia missile strike had taken out 600 people in an ISIS target area it really brought everything into perspective. These people can't win, it's not possible. They may have scattered terrorist attacks killing a 100 or so, but the chances of that happening to me or mine  are so infinitesimal (knock on wood) that worry is a waste of energy. And they'll never be able to truly become a challenge to the world's actual super powers.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

RandallS

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2015, 08:09:15 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182635
They may have scattered terrorist attacks killing a 100 or so, but the chances of that happening to me or mine  are so infinitesimal (knock on wood) that worry is a waste of energy. And they'll never be able to truly become a challenge to the world's actual super powers.

The chance of the average person in a western nation being a victim of a foreign terrorist in a western nation is extremely low, far lower than their chance of being the victim of things like a fatal car crash from all I've read. Unfortunately, governments tend to play up the risk and the danger so justify their "security measures" (read: reduction of freedoms). Political parties are even worse at playing up the "you could be a victim of another 9/11 if you vote for the other guy" card.  Heck, in the US, except for the year 2001, I believe you are in more danger of being a victim of a homegrown and non-Muslim related) terrorist than a foreign terrorist and even those chances are far lower than risks the average person thinks nothing of taking every day (like driving to work or school).
Randall
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sailor

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2015, 10:11:48 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182527
Just hanging this here.

I am literally overwhelmed right now by the amount of terrorist attacks and alerts spreading across the world. The Russian plane, Paris, Beruit, Nigeria, German stadium evacuated, the Barbie doll bombs, the Mali hostage situation, the evacuations and threat level alerts in Belgium. It has just been non-stop this week. It's 1am, my lizard brain is scared, and I just can't see how this doesn't end in war. ...It already is war.

 
And it gets more interesting.  Nuclear power vs NATO ally.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509

RandallS

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2015, 06:38:50 pm »
Quote from: sailor;182725
And it gets more interesting.  Nuclear power vs NATO ally.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-shoots-down-jet-near-syria-border-1448356509

To be honest, I have no idea what Turkey's leaders were thinking. Yes, the Russian fighters were warned not to enter Turkish airspace. However, it looks like they were in Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds. While Turkey may have had the legal right to shoot the Russian fighter down, actually doing so was a stupid decision, IMHO.
Randall
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Juniperberry

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2015, 11:21:08 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;182741
To be honest, I have no idea what Turkey's leaders were thinking. Yes, the Russian fighters were warned not to enter Turkish airspace. However, it looks like they were in Turkish airspace for a matter of seconds. While Turkey may have had the legal right to shoot the Russian fighter down, actually doing so was a stupid decision, IMHO.

 
I heard that they didn't just shoot down the plane, but also shot down the ejected pilots as they parachuted.

Apparently the Russian jets weren't equipped with transponders, so Turkey had no way to identify them?

Russia is claiming Turkey deals in oil with ISIS, and Turkey is supposedly concerned with the Turkmen in Syria? Who knows anymore.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

RandallS

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2015, 07:55:14 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182753
I heard that they didn't just shoot down the plane, but also shot down the ejected pilots as they parachuted.

According reports I've read, that was not Turkey, for some of the rebels in Syria  -- the ones who oppose Assad who Russia supports.

Quote
Apparently the Russian jets weren't equipped with transponders, so Turkey had no way to identify them?


Given Turkey played tapes for other NATO members of the Russians being warned off, that's nonsense. Turkey apparently knew they were Russia fighters.

Quote
Russia is claiming Turkey deals in oil with ISIS, and Turkey is supposedly concerned with the Turkmen in Syria? Who knows anymore.

Russia is probably right to some extent. Turkey's main interest in the area is keeping the Kurds under control and keeping them from trying to form a Kurd state out of parts of Syria, Iran, Turkey. ISIS keeps the Kurds to busy to do much else so I doubt there is a lot of support fort destroying ISIS in Turkey. On the other hand, I doubt there is a lot of desire for ISIS to succeed in its Islamic Caliphate as ISIS would want to include Turkey in it.
Randall
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sailor

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Re: Paris Under Siege
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2015, 09:00:10 am »
Quote from: RandallS;182768
According reports I've read, that was not Turkey, for some of the rebels in Syria  -- the ones who oppose Assad who Russia supports.

 

 
It was a stupid move by the rebels to shoot the Russian pilots.  First, it's a war crime, and it gives Russia a legally free hand to retaliate.  Two pilots, a couple of thousand  civilians in rebel areas and nobody who knows anything about the laws of war will say boo.

Second, it's the Russians.  They are  signatories to the Additional Protocols which removes the protections of the regular laws of war if one side meets certain political criteria.

Third, they are Russians.  There is no such thing as overkill, just "open fire" and "I need to reload".   There was a reason that only one Russian was kidnapped and killed in Lebanon during the 1980s.

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