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Author Topic: Other: Thoughts on this sentiment?  (Read 3041 times)

Juniperberry

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Thoughts on this sentiment?
« on: November 12, 2015, 05:03:18 pm »
I know that "Everything Happens for a Reason" is an offensive sentiment, as is the sentiment that we choose what life lessons we're going to learn before birth.

And I came across this one today:

"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis

My first thought on this was to wonder about all the Social Justice issues, and if this is offensive towards those problems which do seem to be out of people's control.

What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 03:07:35 pm by RandallS »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 07:04:12 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182229
I know that "Everything Happens for a Reason" is an offensive sentiment, as is the sentiment that we choose what life lessons we're going to learn before birth.

And I came across this one today:

"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis

My first thought on this was to wonder about all the Social Justice issues, and if this is offensive towards those problems which do seem to be out of people's control.

What are your thoughts?


I personality believe in both threads of thoughts are true.  Yes, there is a thing as fate, but our actions easily change fate's doctrines. I don't personally find what Ellis said as offensive, but again I don't completely agree with it.

Faemon

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 11:07:36 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182229
I know that "Everything Happens for a Reason" is an offensive sentiment, as is the sentiment that we choose what life lessons we're going to learn before birth.


This reminds me a bit of Marsha Linehan, who pioneered a treatment for those with borderline personality disorder (and I believe she was borderline herself), took that same statement and, rather than use it as a way to dismiss or gloss over human experiences such as pain, used it as a way to clarify the world.

Her example was of a child on a bike that got run over by a car. The socially acceptable response is, "That shouldn't have happened," because there are grieving parents or guardians, and a potential that will never be realized because the person who would have embodied that is dead. However, the fact that it happened means that there were reasons for it. That's just basic physics, which is inappropriate to bring up in a social situation so highly charged, but physics are a fact. That isn't to say that people should not grieve, or that people should find a way to blame a child or an adult driver. Only to recognize that we live in a system of consequences.

Yes, everything happens for a reason. But if one person tries to impose a concept of Reasons and Lessons all for some mysterious "Greater Good" to someone else who just isn't there...that's just not going to work. That's a fact of consequence, too.

Quote
"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis

My first thought on this was to wonder about all the Social Justice issues, and if this is offensive towards those problems which do seem to be out of people's control.


First, I think that Ellis is somewhat irresponsible in saying what will be the best years of my life. Even the "general you" is an effort to universalize what is obviously a personal experience. Some people's best years are spent being raised by a conscientious parent, in a climate of abundance, with a government that's working well for the people. By complete coincidence, they may or may not also enjoy the feeling of immense personal agency.

If that's the personal experience of Ellis, then good for Ellis. What I believe Social Justice is working to justify is personal agency for everyone. The decisions and realizations that Ellis upholds is one expression of personal agency. So, it's a good thing to feel...but perhaps the words for it, and where it applies, would be more appropriate if it were just different.

However, getting to make those decisions and realizations are a process. I believe that it's a largely subconscious process, so Ellis might have just been walking along the street one day and realized, "Hey! I don't harbor any ill will towards my mom anymore! The fact that rain water is no longer safe to drink isn't such a bummer today! I don't care about voting for the President!" And it might have felt like a choice...but was it, really? Because if it were a choice rather than a response to a compulsion, why wouldn't Ellis have had the best years from birth?

TL;DR: The sentiment doesn't offend me, but it's not one that I can adopt. Destiny to me is too vast and wild for one person to keep under their control. Some people are situated alongside more domesticated destinies, and whether that's on the skill of the trainer or the breed of destiny isn't one I can comment on.

I have my aspirations and I do feel that I own enough to move all the buckyballs of whatever world I live in so that I can construct something that looks close enough to the world I want to live in. However, just because I also recognize that the way I perceive the world today is made up of whatever I've picked up of the rubble of every day before, and that natural resources are restricted by development and bureaucracy, doesn't mean that I'd prefer to blame the world than enjoy the best years of my life. Dare I say that it just means that I have an individual comprehension of my place in the world and my powers. What will be a good year isn't entirely up to me, unless I refuse aspects of reality hard enough that I don't have a relationship with it. Then I might not feel like I have any problems, but I've really got a problem.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 12:02:05 am »
Quote from: Faemon;182236
This reminds me a bit of Marsha Linehan, who pioneered a treatment for those with borderline personality disorder (and I believe she was borderline herself), took that same statement and, rather than use it as a way to dismiss or gloss over human experiences such as pain, used it as a way to clarify the world.

Her example was of a child on a bike that got run over by a car. The socially acceptable response is, "That shouldn't have happened," because there are grieving parents or guardians, and a potential that will never be realized because the person who would have embodied that is dead. However, the fact that it happened means that there were reasons for it. That's just basic physics, which is inappropriate to bring up in a social situation so highly charged, but physics are a fact. That isn't to say that people should not grieve, or that people should find a way to blame a child or an adult driver. Only to recognize that we live in a system of consequences.

Yes, everything happens for a reason. But if one person tries to impose a concept of Reasons and Lessons all for some mysterious "Greater Good" to someone else who just isn't there...that's just not going to work. That's a fact of consequence, too.



First, I think that Ellis is somewhat irresponsible in saying what will be the best years of my life. Even the "general you" is an effort to universalize what is obviously a personal experience. Some people's best years are spent being raised by a conscientious parent, in a climate of abundance, with a government that's working well for the people. By complete coincidence, they may or may not also enjoy the feeling of immense personal agency.

If that's the personal experience of Ellis, then good for Ellis. What I believe Social Justice is working to justify is personal agency for everyone. The decisions and realizations that Ellis upholds is one expression of personal agency. So, it's a good thing to feel...but perhaps the words for it, and where it applies, would be more appropriate if it were just different.

However, getting to make those decisions and realizations are a process. I believe that it's a largely subconscious process, so Ellis might have just been walking along the street one day and realized, "Hey! I don't harbor any ill will towards my mom anymore! The fact that rain water is no longer safe to drink isn't such a bummer today! I don't care about voting for the President!" And it might have felt like a choice...but was it, really? Because if it were a choice rather than a response to a compulsion, why wouldn't Ellis have had the best years from birth?

TL;DR: The sentiment doesn't offend me, but it's not one that I can adopt. Destiny to me is too vast and wild for one person to keep under their control. Some people are situated alongside more domesticated destinies, and whether that's on the skill of the trainer or the breed of destiny isn't one I can comment on.

I have my aspirations and I do feel that I own enough to move all the buckyballs of whatever world I live in so that I can construct something that looks close enough to the world I want to live in. However, just because I also recognize that the way I perceive the world today is made up of whatever I've picked up of the rubble of every day before, and that natural resources are restricted by development and bureaucracy, doesn't mean that I'd prefer to blame the world than enjoy the best years of my life. Dare I say that it just means that I have an individual comprehension of my place in the world and my powers. What will be a good year isn't entirely up to me, unless I refuse aspects of reality hard enough that I don't have a relationship with it. Then I might not feel like I have any problems, but I've really got a problem.

 
You brought up a lot of things that I want to address but I only have a minute right now so I'll just say, wrt the SJ issues, the ones I'm mainly thinking of are racism and other forms of bigotry. Is it really fair to advise people to own those problems as their own?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

MadZealot

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 12:39:56 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182229
I know that "Everything Happens for a Reason" is an offensive sentiment, as is the sentiment that we choose what life lessons we're going to learn before birth.  

I don't see either one as offensive, really.  
I DO feel the first one is some feel-good horseshit.  Maybe stuff happens for a reason, maybe not.  Maybe, sometimes, "Shit happens" is just more realistic.
And I've never been able to accept the whole "we choose our life lessons" thing.  Theologically lazy horseshit.


Quote
"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis


w/r/t social justice issues I don't see much problem here.  Yes, I'm a minority.  Yes, I've dealt with bigotry.  I also have a chronic illness.  So what.  I could worry over being a victim of circumstance, but that just seems a godawful waste.  

The Serenity Prayer makes more sense, imho, than either the above sentiments.  Control what you can, when you can, and fuck the rest.  That's my version, anyway.
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Allaya

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 10:33:41 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182229
I know that "Everything Happens for a Reason" is an offensive sentiment, as is the sentiment that we choose what life lessons we're going to learn before birth.

And I came across this one today:

"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis

My first thought on this was to wonder about all the Social Justice issues, and if this is offensive towards those problems which do seem to be out of people's control.

What are your thoughts?

 

I no longer find "Everything happens for a reason" to be offensive. Said offence hinged entirely on assuming the story was about me. I've realized that sometimes the story just isn't about me.
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beachglass

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 03:52:46 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182229
"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis

My first thought on this was to wonder about all the Social Justice issues, and if this is offensive towards those problems which do seem to be out of people's control.


I can get on board with this if there's a narrow definition of "your problems," as problems that you actually own, rather than any problem that you might have.

For example, say I apply for a job and I don't get it. If that's because I didn't prepare for the interview, I would call that a problem I own. I can work on being prepared next time.

If I didn't get it because the CEO's nephew was going to get it no matter what, that's not a problem I own. Nothing I could have done would have changed the outcome that time. Not to say that I wouldn't want to support fairer hiring practices in general, but there's not much use in dwelling on my not having a CEO aunt, because there's nothing I can do about that.

Determining which problems are "yours" is not always so straightforward, so being in a place where you can make that distinction would be worth working toward. I have no idea if that's what Ellis meant, though.
 
My only problem with "everything happens for a reason" is that people seem to add a silent "good" before "reason." Absent that, it's just cause and effect.
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Liadine (dragonflyeyes)

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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 09:20:58 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;182229
"The best years of your life are the ones in which you decide your problems are your own. You do not blame them on your mother, the ecology, or the president. You realize that you control your own destiny."  -Albert Ellis

My first thought on this was to wonder about all the Social Justice issues, and if this is offensive towards those problems which do seem to be out of people's control.

What are your thoughts?


Not "offensive" (man but I hate that weird meaningless word), just patently untrue to a certain extent, as far as I'm concerned. Related to what beachglass said above, it's true to the extent that there are certain things that are 100% your problems to deal with, and treating them that way is immensely freeing sometimes. (Note: this doesn't always mean forgiveness for the people who may have contributed to those problems, and it's not freeing to take responsibility for problems which Aren't Just You.)

Forget about social justice, which I think gets used in a "well, that's how some people see the world" way. It's just facts - some people get attacked, killed, denied opportunity, denied housing, denied all kinds of things, because of their gender/race/sexuality/medical conditions/what have you. When an unchangeable fact of your existence is what's causing Bad Things, do we call that your problem, considering it has no solution you are able to reach for on your own? Or do we place the blame on the people who are causing the Bad Things as a reaction to that unchangeable fact of your existence?

One can argue that it's Up To Them to ~fight for their rights~, but that can't be done individually - it's a societal problem with a societal solution. To the extent that it's an individual one, it's the problem of the individual assholes.

So, basically: useful advice in some situations. Not offensive, but just flat-out false, when applied to other situations. "Social justice" doesn't need to come into it, for the allergic.
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Re: Thoughts on this sentiment?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2015, 11:54:10 am »
Quote from: Liadine (dragonflyeyes);182333
Not "offensive" (man but I hate that weird meaningless word)


Liadine, I have been thinking about that more and more lately - when someone says I am offended. It's become such a quick shortened phrase, but what does it mean when someone says that?

On a work evaluation recently, someone wrote they were offended by something I said about special needs/ESL learners, and I was shocked. I am very aware of these things as someone who works in education, but I also am socially privileged in that I am not special needs and English is my first language. But this comment said nothing about what I said or how I could fix it and make sure I don't repeat the mistake, and that to me just felt like feeling offended for the sake of feeling superior over other's mistakes? I dunno.

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