The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

The 3rd step prayer is "God, I offer myself to thee. To build with me, and do with me as thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, so that I may better do thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them would bear witness to those I would help of thy power, thy love, and thy way of life. May I do thy will always."

 Is it frowned upon or seen as weak, especially in Asatru? Aren't we based around self-determination and morally accountable for our actions?

Young and alone on a long road,
Once I lost my way:
Rich I felt when I found another;
Man rejoices in man,

If you find a friend you fully trust
And wish for his good-will,
exchange thoughts,
exchange gifts,
Go often to his house.

If you know a friend you can fully trust,
Go often to his house
Grass and brambles grow quickly
Upon the untrodden track.

Cherish those near you, never be
The first to break with a friend:
Care eats him who can no longer
Open his heart to another.

Affection is mutual when men can open
All their heart to each other:
He whose words are always fair
Is untrue and not to be trusted.
 
-Havamal


I'm not sure if trust, friendship and loyalty are things you're comfortable applying to the gods. If so, then I would say that trusting in them could be an interpretation of "they will be done".

Now I have a hard time relating this to Paganism, and my path of Asatru. I always thought of Paganism as an equal exchange; that we ask of something, we give an offering or sacrifice, and hopefully the wish is granted if the Gods are pleased. Thy Will Be Done means putting the utmost faith in your God, and whatever his plan is for you, is the best even if it is something you do not want.

Is there anyway that I could apply this to Paganism? Is it frowned upon or seen as weak, especially in Asatru? Aren't we based around self-determination and morally accountable for our actions?

Can I apply Paganism to my recovery?

 
When I think of what you are describing:  of putting myself in the hands of my deity and submitting to their plan for me, that to me speaks of sacrifice.  I have not participated in a 12 step, but from what I have heard, it is a very active process.  You aren't just saying 'God help me' and then waiting around for your Higher Power to step in and make everything right.  What you are doing is acknowledging that this process is bigger than yourself, that you can't do it on your own.  You are taking the steps you can, doing everything in your power, and then asking for help.  

If it were me, I would consider all the steps part of my offering.  Every day, every moment, when I was making the choices to stay on my path, those are my sacrifices and devotion to my Higher Power, and they are my demonstrations of my faith that my Higher power will lead me where I need to go.

And what happens if all this prayer fails? Has the group explained that to you?

 
The AA party line is apparently that AA works "for those people who implement the program properly".  (I actually saw an article on this yesterday or the day before, so it's in my head.)  Therefore, the logic is that if it doesn't work, people are doing it wrong.

This process you describe sounds just like evangelical, fundamentalist Christian faith-healing sects I've heard of.

'Cept it has zero to do with fundie Christian faith-healing.

AA recommends you get a rapport with your 'higher power', a God of your understanding.  Because some days your addiction is bigger than you can handle.  It's an active process that requires some heavy lifting; you go to your God when you need a lil more strength.

The AA party line is apparently that AA works "for those people who implement the program properly".  (I actually saw an article on this yesterday or the day before, so it's in my head.)  Therefore, the logic is that if it doesn't work, people are doing it wrong.

12 step programs have a good record of success (significantly higher than control groups, at least) from what I've read. Fortunately, while AA is the best known 12 step program, they aren't the only one as that attitude you mention is silly. Their program does not work for everyone, even if they "implement the program properly". Thinking that it should work for everyone is an example bad pop psychology in my book.

Ok so I've been coming into a conflict lately, based around the concept "Thy Will Be Done" in Christianity and other religions. I am wondering if this is also applicable to Pagan religions, or if it is frowned upon.

So let's back up. I am in the 12 step program of Alcoholics Anonymous. I have complete faith in it, and it has helped me get back on my feet and start functioning normally. The steps are not religious per se, but is described as "spiritual". It is not Christian, Alcoholics are to find a "God of your own understanding".  

So that being said, the program seriously revolves around the concept of Thy Will Be Done. The steps main fundamentals are: that we are powerless over alcohol, that belief in a higher power could restore us to sanity, that no human power could relieve our suffering, to make a list of character defects, and humbly asking our HP to remove these character defects.

The 3rd step prayer is "God, I offer myself to thee. To build with me, and do with me as thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, so that I may better do thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them would bear witness to those I would help of thy power, thy love, and thy way of life. May I do thy will always."

Now I have a hard time relating this to Paganism, and my path of Asatru. I always thought of Paganism as an equal exchange; that we ask of something, we give an offering or sacrifice, and hopefully the wish is granted if the Gods are pleased. Thy Will Be Done means putting the utmost faith in your God, and whatever his plan is for you, is the best even if it is something you do not want.

Is there anyway that I could apply this to Paganism? Is it frowned upon or seen as weak, especially in Asatru? Aren't we based around self-determination and morally accountable for our actions?

Can I apply Paganism to my recovery?

Perhaps a Pagan take on it would be "And so it is done."  Many sources I have encountered suggest one of the best ways to set intention in motion with prayers and workings is to express gratitude as if whatever it is has been done or has come to pass.  That helps to align your mental model of a successful outcome to your work rather than messing up the vibes by thinking, "I'd like this to happen... but it probably won't."

I personally wouldn't perceive it as weak, and whether or not it fits within the definition from the standpoint of Asatru... well, that depends on your flavor of Asatru.  If you mean the hypermasculine variety that makes the Norse gods and peoples out to be some kind of Hollywood stereotype then it might be.  If you mean the kind that esteems the positive virtues of the gods and people while realizing that we do, in fact, live in the 21st century and our definitions of what it means to be "weak" vs "strong" do not align to some comic-book interpretation of the concepts then it shouldn't be seen as weak.  If your Asatru community does view it as weak then perhaps you should ask yourself whether or not that community's values will help you or hinder your recovery.

Either way, consider this - part of divinity is within us.  When you call out to the gods for help it is not necessarily entirely to put it in their hands.  You're not reaching out and asking for them to carry you along while you do nothing to help yourself.  The way I see it, to put yourself out there and say "Thy will be done" from a Pagan perspective, especially working with the Norse or Saxon deities, is to ask them to help ignite that divine part of yourself that is stronger than your addictions.  The way of many of the Pagan gods is not one of interceding on behalf of someone being passive but to strengthen them.  Their will is not so much for you to be their puppet but for them to help you be the best you you can be.

When you reach out to Odin, Freyr, Tyr, Ullr, Freya, Thor, or any others and say, "I cannot do this alone.  I need your help.  Thy will be done." is not anything like the concept some Christians have of, "God, you're in the driver's seat and I'm just along for the ride."  No.  You may use similar wording to satisfy the people conducting the meetings... but in your heart you are saying something like this:

Gods and goddesses of the Nine Worlds, I face a great foe whose strength I cannot best alone.  I have not the strength nor the wisdom to defeat this on my own.  Lend me your gifts.  Guide me to find the strength of Asgard within myself.  Grant fire to my spirit and strength to my resolve!  Lend me your might so that I may slay the serpents within my soul complex that feed on my addiction!  Grant me the vision to see the bright strands of the web of wyrd that are my true orlog and weave them into a tapestry that gives praise to your might!  So it is done!

Short version - you're not asking them to do everything for you.  You're asking them for the power to do it.  It is not weak to acknowledge weakness for the sake of overcoming it.  Weakness would be to do nothing.  You're already on the proverbial battlefield to confront your enemy.  That is certainly not weak.

That's true of any program as none work 100% of the time with everyone.  


 
That's true of any addiction that has a physiologic component (and that's the vast majority of them). So knowing that a program is not 100% effective might affect its success, especially with people who don't try to make it work. However, one would have to be pretty ignorant of science to expect any program to be 100% effective.

 
My point wasn't about the programs effectiveness. The point was that questioning the effectiveness of a program to an addict currently going through the program isn't very supportive.