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Author Topic: Skepticism and Intuition  (Read 2179 times)

Floofy Bunny

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Skepticism and Intuition
« on: October 27, 2015, 06:43:41 pm »
Greetings,

I need some help reconciling or working through what feel like conflicting/competing messages about ecauldron and, admittedly, some of my own issues, and I welcome input from more experienced folk.

When I researched online pagan communities, I was most drawn to ecauldron due to the emphasis on critical thinking, debate, etc. I have been searching the boards for various topics and reading a lot of the material on the wiki and am really enjoying the conversations and insight.

That being said, as a "recovering academic" who trained in rhetoric, logic, and argumentation all this is very appealing to me, but a part of my return to witchcraft has been necessitated by the fact that a strictly logical approach doesn't meet all my needs. In fact, through engaging in play therapy and getting in touch with my inner child via therapy, I discovered that I needed spirituality back in my life - and the only thing that has ever had any resonance whatsoever with me is paganism (goddess-centered paganism in particular). And a lot of that has been guided by intuition more than anything, but yet there's all this research and these rules, and I feel a little intimidated and wonder if this is even for me.

My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

Mountain Cat

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2015, 07:20:11 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

I compartmentalise. Yes, the world works in one rational, logical, way that can be seen and documented and studied and verified. And, yes, the world works in another way that can't always be seen and documented and studied and verified.

It is, for me, a matter of letting two worlds exist together at the same time, denying the validity of each other, yet remaining real in equal measure.

When it comes down to it I actually just don't think about how they can conflict. I don't need the mental stimulation, thanks. :)

I also feel, on some level, that it is about balancing different aspects of myself. I can't let logic and scepticism win. I am neither a Spock, nor a Scully. Nor can I let  the Otherworld take over, for that, to me (personally only) is a way to madness. They have to balance out or I become unhealthy. So I just live and let live.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 07:20:34 pm by Mountain Cat »

LunaStar

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2015, 09:14:54 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
Greetings,

I need some help reconciling or working through what feel like conflicting/competing messages about ecauldron and, admittedly, some of my own issues, and I welcome input from more experienced folk.

When I researched online pagan communities, I was most drawn to ecauldron due to the emphasis on critical thinking, debate, etc. I have been searching the boards for various topics and reading a lot of the material on the wiki and am really enjoying the conversations and insight.

That being said, as a "recovering academic" who trained in rhetoric, logic, and argumentation all this is very appealing to me, but a part of my return to witchcraft has been necessitated by the fact that a strictly logical approach doesn't meet all my needs. In fact, through engaging in play therapy and getting in touch with my inner child via therapy, I discovered that I needed spirituality back in my life - and the only thing that has ever had any resonance whatsoever with me is paganism (goddess-centered paganism in particular). And a lot of that has been guided by intuition more than anything, but yet there's all this research and these rules, and I feel a little intimidated and wonder if this is even for me.

My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

 
I've struggled with this issue as well, being a highly logical person and even having a logic-based career.  The way I see it is, and I hope I can illustrate this properly, that while we can explain most things in a scientific or logical way there is always a piece of the puzzle missing.  That to me is magick.  Maybe it's that special something that we lost as we evolved.  Or it could be something very logical in essence, but just beyond our understanding.  

I've identified as a witch pretty much my whole life, but when I became an adult I went through a phase where I thought I was being silly.  But being logical actually helped me understand how important it is for us to have rituals and be in touch with our nature, to be spiritual.  And that logic helped me continue working on my craft.  Soon after I found my balance between logic and spirituality and I couldn't be happier about it! I hope that helps! :)

Juniperberry

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2015, 11:00:09 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573

My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

I think intuition is such a powerful force because it normally informs us of what Is. If intuited knowledge was often/always wrong, then it wouldn't be recognized as a Thing by people. What I mean is, intuition often falls in line with what is actually real, so I don't see why it would necessarily conflict with reason and logic. Wouldn't it just exist alongside them as another tool?

Edit: Also, there's a quote attributed to Isaac Asimov that goes: "The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm... that's funny...'"

So keep on with  those "funny" intuitive feelings.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 11:05:32 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Faemon

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 12:33:05 am »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
part of my return to witchcraft has been necessitated by the fact that a strictly logical approach doesn't meet all my needs. In fact, through engaging in play therapy and getting in touch with my inner child via therapy, I discovered that I needed spirituality back in my life - and the only thing that has ever had any resonance whatsoever with me is paganism (goddess-centered paganism in particular).

And a lot of that has been guided by intuition more than anything, but yet there's all this research and these rules, and I feel a little intimidated and wonder if this is even for me.

Maybe these similar threads would help.

The research, I take it as an opportunity to expand symbolic vocabulary. The rules, for the most part, might be more about what you do than how you think. Faith, to me, is more of an art than a science. It's an expression and relationship, and it's creative rather than reductive(?) Science and logic applies in their own sphere, art and faith in the other places. They all apply to personal experience and situate ourselves in the world, but they're not irreconcilable to me because neither ought to "win".
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 12:36:23 am by Faemon »
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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 07:24:34 am »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
Greetings,

I need some help reconciling or working through what feel like conflicting/competing messages about ecauldron and, admittedly, some of my own issues, and I welcome input from more experienced folk.

When I researched online pagan communities, I was most drawn to ecauldron due to the emphasis on critical thinking, debate, etc. I have been searching the boards for various topics and reading a lot of the material on the wiki and am really enjoying the conversations and insight.

That being said, as a "recovering academic" who trained in rhetoric, logic, and argumentation all this is very appealing to me, but a part of my return to witchcraft has been necessitated by the fact that a strictly logical approach doesn't meet all my needs. In fact, through engaging in play therapy and getting in touch with my inner child via therapy, I discovered that I needed spirituality back in my life - and the only thing that has ever had any resonance whatsoever with me is paganism (goddess-centered paganism in particular). And a lot of that has been guided by intuition more than anything, but yet there's all this research and these rules, and I feel a little intimidated and wonder if this is even for me.

My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

 
Honestly, I find that the critical thinking skills I learned in college are actually really useful to apply to my spirituality as I develop my own practice, but my background is in the humanities (history specifically) where sources can be interpreted more than one way and sources are not always reliable due to author bias anyways.

I also know reading up on things like the theory of chaos magick helped me out a lot to get where I am, where you have this idea that you can hold more than one competing belief at a time or at different times based on your needs. That you can have a space where you're a logical rational person if that's best thing for that particular situation and later on be able to get yourself into a more ritual, magical mindset when a different situation calls for it.

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 08:04:10 am »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
That being said, as a "recovering academic" who trained in rhetoric, logic, and argumentation all this is very appealing to me, but a part of my return to witchcraft has been necessitated by the fact that a strictly logical approach doesn't meet all my needs. In fact, through engaging in play therapy and getting in touch with my inner child via therapy, I discovered that I needed spirituality back in my life - and the only thing that has ever had any resonance whatsoever with me is paganism (goddess-centered paganism in particular). And a lot of that has been guided by intuition more than anything, but yet there's all this research and these rules, and I feel a little intimidated and wonder if this is even for me.

One thing to remember about The Cauldron is that it is a multi-religion forum. Some religions (e.g. reconstruction religions trying to recreate a specific ancient religion) really require a more academic and less intuitive approach. Other religions (like eclectic Wicca) can be much more intuitive. Many TC members are members of one of the pagan recon religions so that's what you see, especially in the SIGs devoted to recon religions.
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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 09:50:14 am »
Quote from: Faemon;181584
Maybe these similar threads would help.

The research, I take it as an opportunity to expand symbolic vocabulary. The rules, for the most part, might be more about what you do than how you think. Faith, to me, is more of an art than a science. It's an expression and relationship, and it's creative rather than reductive(?) Science and logic applies in their own sphere, art and faith in the other places. They all apply to personal experience and situate ourselves in the world, but they're not irreconcilable to me because neither ought to "win".


Very eloquently put. I agree.

And to Floofy Bunny: I'm coming from a similar place as you are. I'm not an academic, but I was raised with a strong science background and, as a debater all through high school and college, I prize a rational approach and critical thinking above most anything else.

My paganism for me is akin to poetry; it's a metaphorical, symbolic means of intuiting things that are too big to grasp effectively in any other way. Science gives me the raw data; my paganism is the operating system that interprets it, gives it meaning, presents it in a coherent form. I allow the two to cross-pollinate where appropriate, but I don't confuse one (empirical reality) for the other (the metaphor).

That said, I don't use spells (which is one reason I don't call myself Wiccan). My rational brain won't buy into it. I know there's so much out there we don't understand yet, and I acknowledge the power of thought to shape our reality...so I allow for certain paranormal possibilities. But spells don't get over the hump for me. Rituals do (because I see them as primarily altering the mindset of the participant).
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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 10:36:22 am »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

 
A personal question for you:

Have you ever been in love?  Did you feel the need to apply skepticism, rhetoric, logic, and so on before you allowed yourself to consider a relationship?

Religion is about relationship.

Do you enjoy a form of art?  Poetry, literature, a good movie?  Is your enjoyment based on whether or not that thing meets an academic standard or discourse?

Personally, I find that applying analysis to art afterwards enhances my enjoyment of the thing - you should've heard me after seeing The House of Flying Daggers analysing who lives and who dies in terms of morality play ethics and illustrations - but that is an enhancement of enjoyment of the art, which does not require it.

Religion is also about beauty.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2015, 02:08:00 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573

My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

 
Very much what Darkhawk said: that relationship is different from academic analysis (and should be!)

But more than that, good, solid, thoughtful academic work often involves intutition, too. How much, and where in the process it happens varies depending on field, (sometimes it's that someone is drawn to a particular field in the first place, sometimes it's about intuitive reaction to the people one is working with, sometimes it's about intuitions about the work itself) but it's really really hard to do sustained research work without caring what happens in the topic one is discussing, and a lot of substantial breakthroughs or new understandings come from an intuitive response to research, not a purely logical one.

I think it's also entirely possible (actually, I tend to think it's desireable, though I admit my background is mostly in the humanities, where this works particularly well) to recognise the role of intuition, but not let it be the only thing at play: to recognise that spark of desire, or recognition or emotional response, and then use that to feed your more logical, rational research.

And to recognise when no amount of logic is going to bridge certain gaps, and acknowledge - when we are trying to make a living, breathing thing - that you're going to have to fill those gaps somehow. Which is probably some trial and error, and probably some intuition.

What matters is about being honest (with yourself, and when relevant with other people or in documentation) which thing comes from where, so that people interested in your research can follow your research sources back.
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Floofy Bunny

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2015, 03:36:37 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;181619
Very much what Darkhawk said: that relationship is different from academic analysis (and should be!)
"

Thank you everyone for giving me your two cents. Your responses affirmed some things for me and are helping me look at things in different ways.

(Also, wasn't sure as far as the quoting guidelines goes that if I want to respond to an entire thread, the best way to do that without individually quoting and replying to each person - or is that preferred?)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 03:39:28 pm by Floofy Bunny »

Floofy Bunny

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2015, 03:38:46 pm »
Quote from: Altair;181602
..as a debater all through high school and college, I prize a rational approach and critical thinking above most anything else.


Hey someone formerly in the debate community! I didn't do debate, but my academic experience exposed me to that world, and my bf is a debater so now I found myself saying things like "arg" as short for "argument" and asking people what their claim is based on. :)

Floofy Bunny

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2015, 03:54:45 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;181584
Maybe these similar threads would help.


Thanks Faemon, those links were helpful. I think I have internalized a lot of the stigma surrounding mysticism (for lack of better word) in ANY religion, and having done some research this morning, I realized how much my patron goddess Freya has been pushing me towards this point for over a year now, and the more I learn about her, the more it's like oh, of course, it would be Freya!

Also, I saw your recommendation for Sam Harris' book Waking Up, which I may check out.

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2015, 09:05:45 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181691
(Also, wasn't sure as far as the quoting guidelines goes that if I want to respond to an entire thread, the best way to do that without individually quoting and replying to each person - or is that preferred?)

 
Responses that really are to the whole thread, such as saying, 'thanks, everyone,' are one of the exceptions to the quoting rules. In practice, that just means it's okay in that situation to delete the whole quote, including the quote/trackback code, from your reply, since you have to choose a post and use its 'Reply With Quote' button to post at all - so it's often easier not to delete it, especially if the post being quoted is short enough not to need trimming.

For figuring out which post to hang it from - most people choose either their own initial inquiry, or (as you did) the most recent of the posts they're thanking, but it can be any of the posts that the 'thanks, all,' applies to.

Since you use the phrase 'quoting guidelines', you've probably read the supplementary rules page of that name, but I'm linking it here just in case you haven't. But the way you've done it here - a general 'thanks, everyone', hung off the most recent post you're thanking, plus a couple of replies in which you're responding to specific points people have made and that quote the posts you're responding to - is exactly right!

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Re: Skepticism and Intuition
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2015, 10:29:55 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;181573
Greetings,

I need some help reconciling or working through what feel like conflicting/competing messages about ecauldron and, admittedly, some of my own issues, and I welcome input from more experienced folk.

When I researched online pagan communities, I was most drawn to ecauldron due to the emphasis on critical thinking, debate, etc. I have been searching the boards for various topics and reading a lot of the material on the wiki and am really enjoying the conversations and insight.

That being said, as a "recovering academic" who trained in rhetoric, logic, and argumentation all this is very appealing to me, but a part of my return to witchcraft has been necessitated by the fact that a strictly logical approach doesn't meet all my needs. In fact, through engaging in play therapy and getting in touch with my inner child via therapy, I discovered that I needed spirituality back in my life - and the only thing that has ever had any resonance whatsoever with me is paganism (goddess-centered paganism in particular). And a lot of that has been guided by intuition more than anything, but yet there's all this research and these rules, and I feel a little intimidated and wonder if this is even for me.

My question is for new and old practitioners alike - what do you do to help you work through these conflicts? Currently, the skepticism of my academic training seems so incompatible with the more spiritual, mysterious, and intuitive. I don't think that has to be the case, but it's causing a lot of emotion in my head right now. :(

 
Perhaps this intuition leading you towards spirituality (particularly if it came through inner child connection) is your inner self calling you back to an early developmental stage to deal with a hang up or pathology? I'm reading through the Higgenbotham's "Pagan Spirituality" at the moment and the phrasing of your question is bringing up their exposition of developmental stages/phases. Maybe you find it relevant and useful in processing your return to mysticism?

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