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Author Topic: Old & New  (Read 1640 times)

Aubren

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Old & New
« on: October 06, 2015, 01:14:59 am »
Hi! I'm Aubren.

I've technically been a member here for over a year, but something in the realcame up within days of registering, and I backed off.

But I'm here now!

I'm an eclectic polytheist. Not so good at the polytheist part, all of my solitary honorings have been unsatisfactory & all of the groups as well.

So, I'm not paying attention to them until someone can hold my hand thru it.

For now I mostly work with animal guides/omens/psychological "personifications", both with myself and others when it arises (I'm particularly good at guided meditations, at least in this area), dream, and energy work.


I'd like to work with deities from many different traditions, but especially from the Americas. I also want to work with local spirits and pop-culture icons.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 01:16:59 am by Aubren »
Wazhazhe

RandallS

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2015, 06:30:30 pm »
Quote from: Aubren;180796
Hi! I'm Aubren.

I've technically been a member here for over a year, but something in the realcame up within days of registering, and I backed off.

Welcome to posting at The Cauldron.

But I'm here now!

Quote
Not so good at the polytheist part, all of my solitary honorings have been unsatisfactory....

In what way unsatisfactory?
Randall
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Aubren

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2015, 10:51:49 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;180803

In what way unsatisfactory?

 
Narrowing it down, I'd say the first problem is...what is it called, dissociating? Discerning? Trying to separate the sock puppets & your thoughts from the deity/spirit's response.

Along with that,  social anxiety & social-based low self esteem developed from how peers treated me due to my Asperger's. I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what to say to people who I can see. Even if I think I feel a positive response from a deity, how am I to be sure? And why would they be? And when negative, what do I do?

In a lot of my solitary practices, I've just given food to them and talked. Usually for help, or just what's on my mind. But this isn't how you treat strangers, is it?

There's also the fact that I learned the hard way that giving Loki offerings caused him to make trouble. I don't recall noticing at first that he was doing that, but I already had a lot of chaos in my life at that point. Regardless of when it started, it definitely became a thing.
Life has stabled with less offerings to him.

A local spiritual elder once criticized me, saying "what did you expect?"
Well, I have no idea.Even with all the research online I've done, I still have no idea.
 I asked for help from her and others in her group, and they all said they couldn't help me out with this.


I still don't know what exactly went wrong. To be expected? A relationship gone sour? Too many "lessons" taken too far?
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RandallS

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2015, 09:25:32 am »
Quote from: Aubren;180805
Along with that,  social anxiety & social-based low self esteem developed from how peers treated me due to my Asperger's. I have a hard enough time trying to figure out what to say to people who I can see. Even if I think I feel a positive response from a deity, how am I to be sure? And why would they be? And when negative, what do I do?

Everyone has similar problems trying to tell if something is coming from a deity or one's subconscious or one's imagination or something else. Only experience (and common sense) will help you determine this. By common sense, I mean if what you are being told doesn't match with reality, chances are good that it isn't coming from a deity.

Quote
In a lot of my solitary practices, I've just given food to them and talked. Usually for help, or just what's on my mind. But this isn't how you treat strangers, is it?

This is how most people relate to deities, however. They have a one-sided conversation with them. Responses generally are emotions/feelings rather than obvious/clear signs (let alone "verbal" replies).

Quote
There's also the fact that I learned the hard way that giving Loki offerings caused him to make trouble. I don't recall noticing at first that he was doing that, but I already had a lot of chaos in my life at that point. Regardless of when it started, it definitely became a thing.

There's a lesson to be learned here. Do a bit of research on deities you are thinking about choosing to interact with to decide if you really want to invite them into your life. Loki is a "trickster" deity and is likely to bring chaos. If that isn't what you want, you probably don't want to make offerings to Loki. A good book on mythology can help prevent a lot of problems.

Quote
Life has stabled with less offerings to him.

I imagine it would. :)

Quote
A local spiritual elder once criticized me, saying "what did you expect?"
Well, I have no idea.Even with all the research online I've done, I still have no idea. I asked for help from her and others in her group, and they all said they couldn't help me out with this.

Can't help you find out about deities before you call on them? Right. If they can't, a good source on mythology can.
Randall
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Jenett

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2015, 12:59:08 pm »
Quote from: Aubren;180805
Even if I think I feel a positive response from a deity, how am I to be sure? And why would they be? And when negative, what do I do?


It's a thing that varies a lot. Generally, I believe in taking it slowly, in stages, and looking for multiple forms of feedback.

So, for example, if I have an experience in ritual, I might look for confirmation by doing some research, or divination, or meditation, or just waiting a bit and seeing what happens next time I do that ritual thing.

Sometimes there will be a strong obvious reaction, but a lot more often, it's more subtle, and for the more subtle things, more time and iterations usually help with figuring out how it's going.

(It does go better if you avoid the obvious problem things: this is where research is really helpful, since some deities have items or foods or whatever that just wouldn't be a good offering.)

When I was training, one of the exercises we had to do was do a short 1-2 page essay on the deity we were focusing on that month, and also do a creative project of some kind (this was our choice: some people did poetry or art or music, but we also had people do things like garden designs, mix essential oils, and so on.) The combination worked really well for helping people figure out if they were getting meaningful feedback or not, and I think also made people feel more confident they weren't going to do something rude by mistake.

(The essay part asked for a brief summary of the deity, who else in the pantheon they were closely related to or associated with, a list of symbols and why they were relevant, and then retelling a story related to them. In the process, you'd find a lot of other relevant info.)

Quote

In a lot of my solitary practices, I've just given food to them and talked. Usually for help, or just what's on my mind. But this isn't how you treat strangers, is it?


For a lot of cultures, it used to be - that how you showed courtesy to guests was by giving them food and a place to rest, and some conversation without prying or demanding things of them. Those customs still carry over in a lot of ritual settings (not just Pagan ones) because they've been part of the human experience for a very long time.

Food is a really long standing offering to many deities, but so are other things depending on the deity and culture: cool water, perfume, incense, poetry, music, or small offering items symbolising things associated with that deity are all common. The idea is that the offering says "Hey, I'm asking for a little of your time, here is a thing I think you will like".

I'm a librarian, and I spend a lot of my life helping people with questions - often people I don't know at all. In that setting, people signal the 'I'm asking for some of your time' differently, but I still see a lot of it. (Even at work, where, y'know, work pays me to help people like that.)

As humans, and with a different kind of exchange, people don't need to bring me food, but I definitely notice and appreciate the people who make it easier for me to help them. (And especially when it's someone asking outside of work.)

Sometimes that's by having a good idea what they're looking for before they ask me, or realising it's a complicated question and arranging a time to stop by rather than showing up without warning. Sometimes it's offering to help me out with something I'm doing. Sometimes it's a thank you afterwards, letting me know how the information I found for them was helpful. Sometimes it's something else.

But those are all things that require a more direct two-way conversation than we often have with deities, so, y'know, food and other offerings are also good, because they will be read as cultural courtesy.  

Quote
A local spiritual elder once criticized me, saying "what did you expect?" Well, I have no idea.Even with all the research online I've done, I still have no idea. I asked for help from her and others in her group, and they all said they couldn't help me out with this.


Thinking about this, it used to be discussed more frequently, a few years ago, than I've seen it in a while.

(And there aren't a lot of great books out there about building relationships with deity: there's a lot of 'specific to this particular deity' stuff out there, especially from small presses or bloggers, but not as much general: I've been keeping an eye out, because this kind of question is part of one of the writing projects I'm starting to work on again.)

Anyway. Without knowing more context, it's hard to say why you got quite that reaction from that particular person and group.

A few things that might play into it: the way they build deity relationships is different than that (and this is the kind of thing where it can be really hard to make suggestions when it's not your mode of doing things).

Some people and groups avoid certain deities (and Loki is often on that list for people) and helping you in detail would have involved things that they weren't comfortable with.

Talking about deity relationships (like any relationship) is also sometimes an emotionally intimate thing, and it's not something someone may feel comfortable doing with someone they're not close to, or who isn't a student in their particular group, or something like that.

(You'll note, for example, that I've described some of the things I've found useful above, but I haven't actually talked about how I built my relationship with the primary deities I honour: it involves some of the things above, but also others that are very much more personal, and that I generally don't discuss in public spaces online, anymore than I'd discuss some details of a romantic relationship or close friendship in public.)

Going forward, you might find some open ended questions useful, if you're talking to people: "How did you get started honouring X? What drew you to them? What offerings seem to be received well? How'd you learn about that?" for example, may work better than asking for direct help with a particular deity (unless the person you're talking to is also fairly familiar with them and you trust that person's advice.) There's more ways to answer them that someone might be comfortable with.
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Aubren

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2015, 02:32:16 am »
Quote from: RandallS;180813
Everyone has similar problems trying to tell if something is coming from a deity or one's subconscious or one's imagination or something else. Only experience (and common sense) will help you determine this. By common sense, I mean if what you are being told doesn't match with reality, chances are good that it isn't coming from a deity.

That is very helpful. Often times, our minds make the least sense.

Quote
This is how most people relate to deities, however. They have a one-sided conversation with them. Responses generally are emotions/feelings rather than obvious/clear signs (let alone "verbal" replies).
I know the latter, but the former is helpful. I guess I'm always nervous if what I'm saying is "right: or "okay" to say.

Quote
There's a lesson to be learned here. Do a bit of research on deities you are thinking about choosing to interact with to decide if you really want to invite them into your life. Loki is a "trickster" deity and is likely to bring chaos. If that isn't what you want, you probably don't want to make offerings to Loki. A good book on mythology can help prevent a lot of problems.

I think your misinterpreting my situation with him. To be fair, I didn't give much detail.

*points at Loki, immaturely* HE started it! >__>

The thing is, as far as I'm concerned, he's been "stalking" me for years. (I say this with a mix of affection & disdain.) You see, I was the kind of kid who pointed out all of the obvious flaws around me, and most people hated it. I started sitting at the pledge of allegiance in the 1st grade, all on my own private reasonings!

So, he's basically been giving me signs. You know, the book dropping thing, where it lands on the page to read about him, over and over. Remembering Gargoyles' (a cartoon) Puck as Loki, somehow making Loki mostly synonymous with the trickster archetype; even though I barely knew anything about Norse mythology! Among other things.

And yes. I did my research.

I'm sure you will have a good guess over what caught my attention. And he jumped on that and did the whole...seduction thing he's been doing to a lot of new pagans, recently.

He did such in very specific phases of dreaming, to which he eventually popped the question and I agreed...because I was dreaming. I immediately woke up and thought: "Oh s***, what have done?"



(We're divorced now.)


I should mention that I was much more spiritually clear then I am now. I have degraded on being able to differentiate between me and the gods nowadays, but I was quite a bit better before. I have forgotten much of what I used to know.


My issue with Loki isn't so much that bad things happened. I sometimes did honor him asking him to do just that, to get rid of negative people in my life or so that I could grow as a person.

The problem is that he did it too often. I know my family hates me Loki, but just because I offered you a pizza "because that's what friends are for" doesn't mean I want you to help start another conflict with them!!

I offered him devotional food not exactly regularly, but for that purpose. I didn't expect a continuous influence of ONE ASPECT of him just because I was being nice, loyal, and doing "what I was supposed to do".

I expected him to know when going too far is going too far.
I don't need a deity furthering depression and the terrible possibilities that come with it.

Quote
I imagine it would. :)

XD

Quote
Can't help you find out about deities before you call on them? Right. If they can't, a good source on mythology can.

No, that's not the problem. I can look them up if I want to, and I do so.
The problem is INTERACTING with them. Not who I choose. (Or who chooses me.)

They all said "do it yourself" and I just have an annoying, nervouse time with it, before and after I took there advice.

For the record, I've had a continuous feeling of "go find a group to instruct you" long before Loki became obvious.
I was literally waiting for a chance to convert for maybe 3 years, waiting to find a group.

I've been in 3 groups (well, one was technically a class) in the last 3 years, and a failed attempt to start my own. No one has been willing to assist me in the one thing I need them to.

I'm tempted to believe this urge is a cruel joke.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 02:33:48 am by Aubren »
Wazhazhe

Aubren

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2015, 06:34:13 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;180819
It's a thing that varies a lot. Generally, I believe in taking it slowly, in stages, and looking for multiple forms of feedback.

So, for example, if I have an experience in ritual, I might look for confirmation by doing some research, or divination, or meditation, or just waiting a bit and seeing what happens next time I do that ritual thing.

Sometimes there will be a strong obvious reaction, but a lot more often, it's more subtle, and for the more subtle things, more time and iterations usually help with figuring out how it's going.

Thank you for your advice. I'll start doing this.

Quote
(It does go better if you avoid the obvious problem things: this is where research is really helpful, since some deities have items or foods or whatever that just wouldn't be a good offering.)
This is always important, and generally I do this.

However, there's something alluring about doing it without research, just jumping in & figuring it out from there

Quote
When I was training, one of the exercises we had to do was do a short 1-2 page essay on the deity we were focusing on that month, and also do a creative project of some kind (this was our choice: some people did poetry or art or music, but we also had people do things like garden designs, mix essential oils, and so on.) The combination worked really well for helping people figure out if they were getting meaningful feedback or not, and I think also made people feel more confident they weren't going to do something rude by mistake.

(The essay part asked for a brief summary of the deity, who else in the pantheon they were closely related to or associated with, a list of symbols and why they were relevant, and then retelling a story related to them. In the process, you'd find a lot of other relevant info.)


This sounds really cool! I could learn a lot from a class like that! I was in a goddess class that was similar, but it was more...relaxed. Just a goddess for each week. And I entered late, but I don't recall having to study for them. We just learned about a single goddess for a class then did a ritual.

Where do you find these things?

Quote
For a lot of cultures, it used to be - that how you showed courtesy to guests was by giving them food and a place to rest, and some conversation without prying or demanding things of them. Those customs still carry over in a lot of ritual settings (not just Pagan ones) because they've been part of the human experience for a very long time.
This gives me a new perspective on what it's like. This may calm me down my anxiety while doing this: it's just a normal thing. Just inviting them over.

Quote
...and some conversation without prying or demanding things of them.
That may be an issue.

I was under the impression that asking a deity for something was what you're supposed to do while honoring them, at least when it's not a "regular" offering.

I have trouble navigating conversations with normal people without prying. I'm not sure *how* I would do it with brings that can't  (usually) talk back. Or at least, without blabbing on about myself or what I think of their myths.

Quote
Food is a really long standing offering to many deities, but so are other things depending on the deity and culture: cool water, perfume, incense, poetry, music, or small offering items symbolising things associated with that deity are all common. The idea is that the offering says "Hey, I'm asking for a little of your time, here is a thing I think you will like".
This is the main reason I've avoided making alters. Capitalism is quite hard on those in poverty, you know?

I can scrounge around for objects I already have; put my phone on the alter; and add food & water; but that's about it.

It feels...well, cheap.

 
Quote
I'm a librarian, and I spend a lot of my life helping people with questions - often people I don't know at all. In that setting, people signal the 'I'm asking for some of your time' differently, but I still see a lot of it. (Even at work, where, y'know, work pays me to help people like that.)

As humans, and with a different kind of exchange, people don't need to bring me food, but I definitely notice and appreciate the people who make it easier for me to help them. (And especially when it's someone asking outside of work.)

Sometimes that's by having a good idea what they're looking for before they ask me, or realising it's a complicated question and arranging a time to stop by rather than showing up without warning. Sometimes it's offering to help me out with something I'm doing. Sometimes it's a thank you afterwards, letting me know how the information I found for them was helpful. Sometimes it's something else.


But those are all things that require a more direct two-way conversation than we often have with deities, so, y'know, food and other offerings are also good, because they will be read as cultural courtesy.  

...Does the fact that it's your duty to help people-while the gods decide on their own freewill- change anything?

I can still see ways to apply the examples given, make it easier for them & thanking them.

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I'm a librarian...people don't need to bring me food
*Twists your words to make an in joke with a librarian friend of mine.*

Quote
Thinking about this, it used to be discussed more frequently, a few years ago, than I've seen it in a while.

Do you have any links?

Quote

(And there aren't a lot of great books out there about building relationships with deity: there's a lot of 'specific to this particular deity' stuff out there, especially from small presses or bloggers, but not as much general: I've been keeping an eye out, because this kind of question is part of one of the writing projects I'm starting to work on again.)

Your project sounds interesting. I'd like to read it if you finish it.

Quote
Anyway. Without knowing more context, it's hard to say why you got quite that reaction from that particular person and group.

As Randall has/will/might discover, I am VERY willing to divulge context.

To be fair, she was a bit drunk. And I haven't gone back since then.
But she has my number, and she never apologised or asked to discuss it with. Nor did she get another member who has my phone number; so she clearly has no interest in fixing our issue.

I left mainly because she had expressed a lot of prejudice against "online pagans" and a high preference for pagan books.
I'm the opposite.
She disliked me using slang like "UPG" (and I had to explain it to her!)and had a distaste for godspouses, seeing them as immature little girls until I explained my situation  (which I've explained in my reply to Randall).

She emphasized books, and I explained my frustration with how Wiccan all of her suggestions and most others are. She tried to say that there was still good info in them anyways, to which I said something along the lines of "Maybe so, but I don't want to deal with the tons of the Wiccan stuff while reading them"

She seemed baffled. I just want a book that covers the different pagan religions equally, with all of that good stuff.

She also advised me to pick up a translation of the Eddas.
I'm an eclectic polytheist, not a Heathen.
I had to put the Popol Vuh down, and I know the same will go with the eddas.
And besides, I've read most of the myths online. If I'm not going to dedicate years to the entire/most of the pantheon, why should I waste my time on a old book I can't read?

For the record, I did read the Gospel of Loki afterwords. Which still isn't the same thing, and it has stuff the author took liberties with (such as the rime giant being a rock giant and Loki being afraid of snakes) as well as missing stories (such as Odin raising that dead seeress). It was modern and the main character wasn't a gary stu, so I could read it.

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A few things that might play into it: the way they build deity relationships is different than that (and this is the kind of thing where it can be really hard to make suggestions when it's not your mode of doing things).
I'm only half-way understanding what you're trying to say here. If "that" was "you" it'd make a lot of sense.

Quote
Some people and groups avoid certain deities (and Loki is often on that list for people) and helping you in detail would have involved things that they weren't comfortable with.
I'm well aware of this. She was a kitchen witch (and I think a Wiccan) who had an "unusual way of working with Odin" and apparently has a deep relationship with him.
She has also worked with Loki multiple times.

She had dislike my repeated mention of Loki as a trickster (and to be fair, I was having a bad speaking-day.)
Basically:
Her: He's so much more than that!
Me: I know, I was married to him.
Her: He's  *starts listing off qualities that I can't remember*
Me: I know, I've read the myths! I've researched him!

Quote
Talking about deity relationships (like any relationship) is also sometimes an emotionally intimate thing, and it's not something someone may feel comfortable doing with someone they're not close to, or who isn't a student in their particular group, or something like that.

(You'll note, for example, that I've described some of the things I've found useful above, but I haven't actually talked about how I built my relationship with the primary deities I honour: it involves some of the things above, but also others that are very much more personal, and that I generally don't discuss in public spaces online, anymore than I'd discuss some details of a romantic relationship or close friendship in public.)

This is a fact & quality that I didn't realize until my teens. I didn't develop a since of personal privacy until then; and it was mainly because sharing the info led to personal attacks then anything else.

I didn't even notice. From my perspective, most people have "dodgy" conversation and I'm just used to it.
And besides, I was asking g for "in general" anyways.

I could totally reveal many (but not all) intimate details to the public, if it wasn't for the fact that there'd be lots.of negative responses; mainly from them, but the audience as well.
Quote
Going forward, you might find some open ended questions useful, if you're talking to people: "How did you get started honouring X? What drew you to them? What offerings seem to be received well? How'd you learn about that?" for example, may work better than asking for direct help with a particular deity (unless the person you're talking to is also fairly familiar with them and you trust that person's advice.) There's more ways to answer them that someone might be comfortable with.

That is very helpful, I'll be sure to do this. I've done it a little  bit, but mainly "what would/have you offer/ed to them?"
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 06:40:06 pm by Aubren »
Wazhazhe

Jenett

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2015, 08:07:08 pm »
Quote from: Aubren;180883

However, there's something alluring about doing it without research, just jumping in & figuring it out from there


This is one of those things where if you pick the 'jump in without research', expect a bunch of bumps and bruises in the learning process, y'know?

I've been known to describe my Craft learning as "I prefer to learn from other people's mistakes." because my tolerance for chaos in my life is not terribly high, comparatively. I get plenty without seeking it out, anyway.

Quote

Where do you find these things?


In this case, it was part of my Dedicant training with a specific tradition (the same one I'm now a priestess and initiate in): it was a year of classes, and the deity work was only part of it. The deity parts were not something we covered in the shorter intro Seeker classes before people could ask to be considered for Dedicant training, and they were something that required a lot of other framework to work well.

(For one thing, the deities we were given to research were deities who were often either a part of the tradition's rituals, or commonly referenced in the community: that part doesn't make sense if you're not interacting with a community regularly.)

It was also a substantial time commitment: about 10 hours a month of classes, plus Sabbats and Esbat rituals, plus sometimes other things (working out to about 3 weekend days a month, and an evening or two, on average.) and homework, reading, and daily practice exercises at home, to put the amount of effort in context.

In the general sense: I looked for Pagan classes and groups, felt out a couple of options, decided to do the intro classes, decided I liked the group and how they taught, and went from there.

What's available where you are may look really different, but if you're interested, I encourage you to keep an eye out (and check back every few months, because sometimes groups start up, start doing classes again after a hiatus, etc. Since most Pagan groups are very small, fairly minor things in the group leaders lives can mean they put things on hold for a bit.). Pagan Pride events or festivals or other gatherings can be good places to hear about options too.

(There's a lot more that might help you out on my Seeking website, too, so I won't go into more detail here.)

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I was under the impression that asking a deity for something was what you're supposed to do while honoring them, at least when it's not a "regular" offering.


Well, it's *a* thing you can do when you invite them. That doesn't mean you have to do it every time.

This is probably worth a whole other topic, but there are tons of different ways of connecting with deities: supplication (hey, can you help me?) is only one of them. Just talking is another, spending time in the same space. Honouring them without wanting something in return is a third. There's a bunch of others, if you dig into various theological approaches from different religions that I'm not going to do right now (because it is Friday night, I am already running low on spoons, and I have other things I want to do tonight.)

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This is the main reason I've avoided making alters. Capitalism is quite hard on those in poverty, you know?


Actually, no, I don't.

Or rather, I know how people get that impression, but an altar doesn't have to mean Lots of Fancy Things. Some people do that.

But chances are, except for some very specific ritual tools (that it sounds like aren't your thing anyway), you can do a whole lot with things you already have, can find in nature, or can get very inexpensively at thrift stores, dollar stores, or by some careful shopping. For a long time - the first couple of years of my practice - nothing on my altar cost more than $20, and most of it cost under $5, and I got it a bit at a time.

Again, more on the Seeking site, but you can do simple art (or designs suitable to the deity) with some colored pencils, pens, and paper. You can write poetry or invocations or praises. You can find natural objects (that are okay for you to use: no endangered species or migratory bird feathers!) and use those. You can make things from inexpensive materials (I get a lot of mileage out of cheap ribbon, embroidery floss, or polymer clay, sometimes.) Thrift stores often have small plates, bowls, candle holders, etc. Many cooking herbs can be used for magical work or ritual offerings. Baking bread is very inexpensive in ingredients but takes more time and attention. And so on.

Another good tip is to look at what ordinary working people in the culture of that deity used. Not all of those things are going to work for you (if you don't live on a farm, say, fresh milk may not be an option) but you can get some useful ideas.

Finally, most deities that you're sincerely trying to build a relationship with are going to understand at least some of 'this person doesn't have a lot to give, but is making a good effort to give what they can'.  (This works less well for 'Hi, I want a favour, and I'm not going to talk to you again after that' interactions, when you usually need to do more up front to prove your sincere interest.)
 
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Does the fact that it's your duty to help people-while the gods decide on their own freewill- change anything?


Well, it's not like I stop answering questions from people when I'm on my own time, y'know? (Like I'm doing right now.)

I truly love my work. I would do much of what I do at work if no one paid me. (Ok, I'd do slightly fewer of the projects I don't like, and I'd stay in bed with a good book a bit more often. But honestly? Love my job. Love helping people find information.)

But more than that, just because a deity is a deity, doesn't mean there isn't duty there. In a number of pantheons, a deity doing the things they do is considered essential for the continuation of life. (You see this especially with myths about sun deities, but it's true for a lot of them: if they don't do their necessary tasks, the world gets very messy very fast.)

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Do you have any links?


About discussions of deities? No, because the conversations took place in a dozen different places, at least half of which are now defunct, over the course of more than a decade. I am good at tracking data, but that's not a thing I track extensively. If you poke around in this forum and the previous archived versions of the Cauldron, you'll find some things, but it will take some patience: the search functions can be cranky.

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Your project sounds interesting. I'd like to read it if you finish it.


It's a book, which I've been poking a for more than a decade, and am about to start on a more useful rewrite of, in hopes of publication, so don't hold your breath, it will be a while. (Focusing on research and learning for Pagan topics, and all the things no one teaches anyone in school about how to do that kind of research and learning better.)

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But she has my number, and she never apologised or asked to discuss it with. Nor did she get another member who has my phone number; so she clearly has no interest in fixing our issue.


So, on the one hand, probably not a good person for you to talk to.

On the other hand, if this is someone you only knew briefly or casually for a few months (rather than, say, a close friend for some time), I'm not sure I'd pursue it either. People who run Pagan groups often get a *lot* of people coming in, checking them out, and then either deciding to stick around or go away, and pursuing the people who decide it's not for them rarely ends well.

(Seriously: in my time I've seen and heard stories of stalking, harassment, people having severe breaks with reality that lead to the previous, and also a lot of just not pleasant experiences. I am very much on the side of "If this isn't the place, I hope you find what is, have a great life." these days. Even just a couple of evenings of the two of you disagreeing might not get anywhere productive, and that's a couple of evenings neither of you would have for other things that would be more fun and better for you both.)

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She disliked me using slang like "UPG" (and I had to explain it to her!)and had a distaste for godspouses, seeing them as immature little girls until I explained my situation


Well, if that's her experience of godspouses, that's her experience of godspouses (and frankly, it's a rather common one, in some circles of the community: if that was all I'd seen of them, I wouldn't have much patience with the concept either.)

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She tried to say that there was still good info in them anyways, to which I said something along the lines of "Maybe so, but I don't want to deal with the tons of the Wiccan stuff while reading them"


and

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She seemed baffled. I just want a book that covers the different pagan religions equally, with all of that good stuff.


To be honest, that's a pretty unrealistic demand.

1) You've said she's more Wiccan in approach than other things (or Wiccan and kitchen witch). Of *course* what she recommends is going to be the stuff she found more useful. If you want different kinds of material, her general recommendations probably aren't going to be a great help.

(There are some exceptions, but in those cases, people will generally make it clear they're recommending beyond their own path, or put things like "Not my thing, but I have friends who've recommended X and Y for people interested in Z." - making it clear where their own experience and expertise ends. That's one of the good things about a forum like this that draws people from a bunch of different paths.)

2) Who do you imagine is going to write a book that treats a dozen or more different paths fairly? People who are Pagan themselves will have their own preferences (and their own experiences) that will shape what they write. People who aren't Pagan will be coming from an outside perspective. Both have limitations.

There are some books out there that do chapters from a bunch of different people, but they tend to be more successful when they're fairly tightly focused (different approaches to Wiccan traditions, for example, or a book dealing with a particular deity from different angles).

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And besides, I've read most of the myths online. If I'm not going to dedicate years to the entire/most of the pantheon, why should I waste my time on a old book I can't read?


Because that book shapes a lot of discussion about those deities, and because even if you don't directly honour other deities in a pantheon, understanding a little about them can help (just like understanding a bit about where a friend or romantic partner comes from can help you understand them.) It will also help you understand how to have conversations with people for whom those texts *are* important, which if you want to talk to people who take a more historically-rooted approach to various deities, might be handy.

That doens't mean you need to spend years studying - but there's a bunch of decent translations, summaries, and supplemental material out there for the major mythology texts now, and it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion as a place to start for a lot of people.  (Your local public library probably has a bunch of stuff here: it doesn't even need to cost you any money.)

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I'm only half-way understanding what you're trying to say here. If "that" was "you" it'd make a lot of sense.


Roughly that, yes - if the way you build relationships with deities (or people) is very different than the way that group does, then you're going to have a mismatch of expectations at best, and a lot of confusion.

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And besides, I was asking g for "in general" anyways.


Yeah, but it's not your lines that are the issue here, but hers. (Or whoever you're talking to.) It sounds - from what you say here - that the conversation was already making her feel somewhat uncomfortable and like you and she weren't coming at this from much of the same perspective. I wouldn't open up more in that situation either: I'd redirect the conversation to places I felt more comfortable (and less emotionally vulnerable) or get out of the conversation entirely.

People get to have boundaries, basically. And just because someone's willing to be helpful doesn't mean they don't get to draw some lines about when, how, and on what topics.
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Aubren

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 07:38:48 pm »
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This is probably worth a whole other topic, but there are tons of different ways of connecting with deities: supplication (hey, can you help me?) is only one of them. Just talking is another, spending time in the same space. Honouring them without wanting something in return is a third. There's a bunch of others, if you dig into various theological approaches from different religions that I'm not going to do right now (because it is Friday night, I am already running low on spoons, and I have other things I want to do tonight.)
Is this a topic you want started?

My sympathies on being low on spoons: that's what took me so long to reply.
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...but you can do simple art (or designs suitable to the deity) with some colored pencils, pens, and paper. You can write poetry or invocations or praises.
This is my best option, I think. Thanks!
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You can find natural objects (that are okay for you to use: no endangered species or migratory bird feathers!) and use those.
Already did that xD
Yeah, I didn't know what to do with that unknown-species of hawk tail feather I picked out of an unrented front yard. Tip was too ruined to make a quill. So I just offered it to Hermes once or twice. It's in storage now.
I know, I know: $500 fine.
 
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About discussions of deities? No, because the conversations took place in a dozen different places, at least half of which are now defunct, over the course of more than a decade. I am good at tracking data, but that's not a thing I track extensively. If you poke around in this forum and the previous archived versions of the Cauldron, you'll find some things, but it will take some patience: the search functions can be cranky.


You had said a few years, so I assumed 2009 at the earliest. Mostly 2012+ sources. xD

Thanks for the search advise.

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(Seriously: in my time I've seen and heard stories of stalking, harassment, people having severe breaks with reality that lead to the previous, and also a lot of just not pleasant experiences. I am very much on the side of "If this isn't the place, I hope you find what is, have a great life." these days. Even just a couple of evenings of the two of you disagreeing might not get anywhere productive, and that's a couple of evenings neither of you would have for other things that would be more fun and better for you both.)
Wow.

Then again, I've had my own hairbrush broken in two and thrown at me, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

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To be honest, that's a pretty unrealistic demand.
 

2) Who do you imagine is going to write a book that treats a dozen or more different paths fairly? People who are Pagan themselves will have their own preferences (and their own experiences) that will shape what they write. People who aren't Pagan will be coming from an outside perspective. Both have limitations.
As well as
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There are some books out there that do chapters from a bunch of different people, but they tend to be more successful when they're fairly tightly focused (different approaches to Wiccan traditions, for example, or a book dealing with a particular deity from different angles).

Let me clarify something: I'm talking about "Pagan" books.
Not books specifically meant for a specific religion within paganism. Not even "Reconstructionism 101".

I'm talking about "pagan" books for beginners.
In my experience, these "PAGAN" books are actually "Wiccan & and Wiccan-esque paganism". And usually witchcraft is expected.
They lump most pagan people into pretty much a single religion. And it irritates me. It's teeth grinding.
It's frustrating for me as one of those eclectics who lean far away from Wicca & Wicca-esque ideas about magick.
I can't glean much from these books.
I need ones that are more broad & inclusive; and I can't find any!


While I agree with you on that what you know is what your best at, I disagree with that when writing about a broad topic.

If a Wiccan us writing on Wicca, I expect then to have a very Wiccan perspective throughout.
However, if they are discussing the various branches of Wiccanism, I expect them to pull back from their biases.

I'm not talking about the transphobia & misandrogy occasionally found in Wicca.(Especially Dianic).

I'm talking about the obvious & vague preferences.

 I am okay with them admitting that they have them. It's notmal. But they need to take a clearer-minded perspective while writing about these other sects. Otherwise, they need friends & other people from the other sects to help them out.


And this is my irk in most of these pseudo-pagan books.
They are false advertising. They're written by Wiccans for Wiccans & eclectic with a strong to mediocre Wiccan influence.

Not for Heathen reconstructionists.
Not for Humanist Pagans.
Not for Abrahamic-Pagans.
Not for the full range of eclectics.

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Because that book shapes a lot of discussion about those deities, and because even if you don't directly honour other deities in a pantheon, understanding a little about them can help (just like understanding a bit about where a friend or romantic partner comes from can help you understand them.) It will also help you understand how to have conversations with people for whom those texts *are* important, which if you want to talk to people who take a more historically-rooted approach to various deities, might be handy.
But I *have* read the myths. In a way that I can understand them.
And if I get better, I can just ask the deities themselves, right?

Also, I don't trust the eddas.
They've been Christianized. My experience with my own tribe's "ancient" books has given me some clarity on this.

I don't even believe in Ragnarok as a valid part of the Norse mythology (as it originally was), though  they've added those aspects now.

And as I mentioned: they're hard to read. I've read some direct translations on particular myths.
But mostly, I prefer the current version that's meant to tell the original story as well as entertain the modern reader.

Someone has re-written Egyptian mythology in a comic book format. They're keeping to the originial, but it's also slightly revivalist: they're writing the myths in a way that's appealing to modern(Western) people.

He believes that the myths were explained partially to entertain the audience. And considering how I can compare the various myths (especially the Popol Vuh) to my early 2000s years of reading mary-sue fanfiction on Quizilla, I believe it. Those entertained me, and the girls who read them needed the heroes who were perfect in too many ways (but imperfect in odd, not really flawed ways).
They're important for religion, for understanding the deities past. But they were originally meant to be amazing stories & poems to tell: and I take that to heart.


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Roughly that, yes - if the way you build relationships with deities (or people) is very different than the way that group does, then you're going to have a mismatch of expectations at best, and a lot of confusion.*
They didn't do much deity honoring/worshipping. They mostly went camping to enjoy nature.
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Yeah, but it's not your lines that are the issue here, but hers. (Or whoever you're talking to.) It sounds - from what you say here - that the conversation was already making her feel somewhat uncomfortable and like you and she weren't coming at this from much of the same perspective...People get to have boundaries, basically. And just because someone's willing to be helpful doesn't mean they don't get to draw some lines about when, how, and on what topics.

I agree with you. She probably was. We both were.

But that wasn't what I meant.
I was talking about my first post. And thus your reply.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 07:39:42 pm by Aubren »
Wazhazhe

Darkhawk

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2015, 09:14:05 pm »
Quote from: Aubren;181029
Is this a topic you want started?


Generally speaking, it's better to put substantive conversations in an appropriate section of the board.

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I need ones that are more broad & inclusive; and I can't find any!


They are, to a first approximation, wildly unlikely to exist.  The closest you're going to get is Drawing Down The Moon and similar, which is deeply flawed for that purpose.  (A very important work, but flawed for overview beyond even the obvious 'didn't seem to talk to non-folkish Asatru' level.)

Even if one gets past the first hurdle - the part where forms of religious witchcraft are so widespread that there are large numbers of people who don't know anything else exists under the pagan category, which is part of the self-perpetuating problem that you're pointing at there, there are other problems.

I am probably reasonably informed about the breadth of diversity among pagan religions.  The number of religions that I can comfortably write a summary of for a newcomer?  About a half.  (Kemetic recon.)  And I say 'a half' because of the diversity of denominations within that religion, many of which I have only passing acquaintance with or am fully aware that I am unable to do justice to because I disagree with them on critical points in ways that I do not trust myself to treat fairly.  I cannot write anything actually useful about Celtic reconstructionism, Hellenic reconstructionism, Thelema, traditional Wicca in any denomination, neo-Wicca in any form, Tameran Wicca, pagan-identifying Vodou, or theistic Satanism, to pick the things that I am specifically most familiar with that are not my bag.

Any book claiming to be about the span of paganism that is by a single author is either going to have the same sorts of flaws as DDtM, or be written by someone who has their Dunning very firmly inserted up their Kruger.  Needless to say, any book written by someone so incompetent/ignorant that they don't know that they're incompetent/ignorant is likely to have other flaws.

Next puzzle, of course: suppose one has a hypothetical anthology, a brief intro to pagan religions with each section written by practitioners thereof.  What religions does one include?  There is not enough space for all of them.  Especially since people keep coming up with new ones.

Consider Wicca alone.  There is the 'what is Wicca?' question, first of all, which includes various hard lines drawn by various people who disagree with each other.  But if one only categorises the mostly-consensus BTW lines, that's Gardnerians, Alexandrians, Central Valley (which has a half-dozen offshoots itself), Mohsian, and some people count Blue Star.  And then you bump out a level and you get stuff like Seax-Wica, Odyssean, and Protean.  And organised, long-term eclectic trads.  And then there's the other religious witchcrafts, the Cochranites, 1734, Feri, Reclaiming, the Third Road, the Corellians, the Dianics, there's the thing Penczak is doing, etc.  Even if you just count the ones I can pull up off the top of my head, that's over a score of chapters alone covering the diversity in religious witchcraft.

In reconstructions, I've met Celtic, Norse/Germanic, Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Canaanite, Aztec, Gaulish, Slavic, Baltic, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.  THe only ones of those that don't have divisions that I've seen are the Gaulish, Canaanite, and the Aztec, and that may be because they're specific enough already that I'm not aware of the big cultural splits and I'm not tapped in enough to know if there are denominational ones.  (Celtic, I've encountered Irish, Scots, Welsh, and some other more nuanced things, and then there's the denominational flamewars.  Norse/Germanic has the Scandanavians and the Germanics large scale division, smaller scale divisions beyond that, and then there's the Asatru, the Vanatru, the Rokkatru, the Northern Tradition, the other divisions.  Slavic's big divide I've seen is Russian/everyone else, where everyone else is scrambling.  Etc.)  How many of those get a chapter?

Do the culturally specific religious witchcrafts like Tameran Wicca get a chapter?  How many?  One for the lot of them, maybe?  Or do the solutions they have to how to fit their gods into a usually-but-not-always Wiccish ritual format merit treatment as independent things?

But wait, that's not all.  There's Thelema.  There's polytheistic ceremonialism in various forms, I know they exist under the pagan umbrella, we have some here.  There's pagan Luciferianism and pagans in the Temple of Set.  NROOGD.  There's the Church of All Worlds.  There's the Minoan Brotherhood.  Feraferia.  The Ecclesia Antinou and the other Antinoan religions.  Fuck, how did I forget the druids?  OBOD, ADF, Henge of Keltria, New Reformed Druids of North America, damnit I'm forgetting a big one.  AODA, duh!  Reformed Druids of Gaia.  The Discordians.  Radical Faeries.

Then you get into the larger World Religions Question.  Does one include only people whose primary affiliation is under the pagan religious movement, or does one take into account the African Disapora, Shinto, Hindu, Buddhist, and various Native traditions that have chosen to affiliate with the pagans in one way or another, either as individuals or as people who are also keeping an eye on what the other pagans are doing with the stuff that's been lifted out of their heritage traditions?  How about the Celtic Christians with pagan leanings, or the Jewitches?  Appalachian folk magic practitioners?

And then.  For many of these - I would not be surprised by most of them - there are ongoing standing feuds, in which various people can't stand each other's theology, their practice, their ongoing whatever.  What side does the book take on those feuds?  Or does it publish all the sides - the three or so (at least) major factions of Feri, the folkish and welcoming sides of heathenism, the Lokean/Nokean/Whateverkean splits in heathenism, the hidden children of the goddess witches vs. the let it all hang out witches, the Satanists and the "WE ARE NOT SATANISTS"ists, etc.?

And I am absolutely certain that I'm not getting the full diversity in here, and that if I went to get my copy of DDtM there'd be something in it that I didn't mention.

Getting an overview of paganism in a single book is basically not going to happen.  Every book out there will be flawed and limited.  That they are mostly flawed and limited in the same way is, yes, very aggravating, but that is not likely to change any time soon, either.  For broad overviews of things, one has to look into individual things one wants to know more about, and just keep doing that over and over and over again.  Dealing with interfaith forums like the Cauldron will lead to superficial familiarities with a number of things that are almost certainly going to match what a hypothetical "book about paganism" that actually tried to cover the breadth thereof would hit.
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as our ashes turn to dust
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Darkhawk

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2015, 09:18:36 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;181035
And I am absolutely certain that I'm not getting the full diversity in here, and that if I went to get my copy of DDtM there'd be something in it that I didn't mention.

 
... such as the Church of the Eternal Source, which is, ironically, an Egyptian-based organisation that I'm pretty sure is in there, and which I did not remember to include.
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Jenett

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 09:19:03 am »
Quote from: Aubren;181029
Is this a topic you want started?


It is not a topic I have a burning desire to start, but I'm not the one with the questions on the matter. (I am also not going to be in a position to rummage extensively in the book that your question made me think of for several weeks at best, between some upcoming travel, and then Samhain, but that doesn't mean other people might not have comments.)

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I know, I know: $500 fine.


A surprising number of people don't know about the Migratory Bird Act, which is why I mention it.

(One thing to realise about me, in this forum, is that while I'm writing a reply to you and your comments here, I'm aware there are lots of people reading who aren't commenting in this thread, or may never comment, so I tend to add things that may be useful to other readers, especially when it comes to warnings/safety/related info.)

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You had said a few years, so I assumed 2009 at the earliest. Mostly 2012+ sources. xD


To be precise, what I said was that I hadn't seen as many comments about it for a few years, which rather implies that there were more extensive comments previously, and that previously extends a fair bit back.

(The large challenge - outside what's here - is, as I said, that several of the places I was seeing those comments no longer exist, even in archival form.)

Darkhawk has very excellently addressed the challenges of writing overview books, and why they really don't exist (and probably can't ever, because of human nature.)

I would add that there are some ways to learn about different kinds of paths that work better than expecting entirely implausible acts of knowledge and writing ability.

- Finding forums with people from a wide range of paths, and then reading (both current conversations and poking around in older ones.)

- Finding sites that collect links, resources, commentary, etc. from a range of paths. (I'd suggest anyone interested about things of this kind look at the Wild Hunt blog (http://wildhunt.org) - their Pagan Community notes often give a quick feel of what's going on, plus rummaging through whatever tags catch your attention. (The site is more than 10 years old, so there's a tremendous amount of material there.)

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I'm talking about "pagan" books for beginners.


Ok, if you're talking about *practice*, that's a different question than "Tell me about the different paths out there."

And yeah, you're right, that happens. And it's annoying. (It's actually also very annoying to people who are on the more traditional side of Wiccan and related practice.)

The thing is, though, that those books, that generic Wicca-derived, often with the hard edges rubbed off, those sell. And book publishers, well, they like it when books sell, and not so much when they don't.

The past few years - the last five to eight or so - have been a lot better than the 90s and 2000s were (books are better identified as where they're coming from, and it's usually pretty easy to tell what you're getting from the title/cover blurb/etc.)

For books about other paths, either one needs to look at the occasional titles focusing on those from the various Pagan publishing houses, or one dips into specific publishing for particular communities (usually small press or self-publishing, both of which can also have some quality issues on a totally different axis) or one looks at the increasing number of books out there that talk about concepts and skills that are not entirely focused on a particular path.

There are, for example, a number of books about developing a daily practice, or trance, or divination, or energy work, where the author may use examples from religious witchcraft (especially if that is, y'know, their own actual path), but also does a good job including other applications and ideas.

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And as I mentioned: they're hard to read. I've read some direct translations on particular myths.
But mostly, I prefer the current version that's meant to tell the original story as well as entertain the modern reader.


The thing is, that *also* introduces biases.

My father was a specialist in Ancient Greek theatre. I read enough classical Greek to have looked at his translations, and I grew up on Greek myths (and have also read a fair bit of the surviving texts, some of them in the original.)

There are things that anyone who is looking at retelling a story changes. They modify things, they leave this bit out. They don't understand that a particular colour reference has a particular cultural meaning that adds a layer to the story. They miss a pun with names, that shows something else. They don't realise that this reference, over here, is a call out of another story that would have been very familiar to the original's audience, but is much more obscure to the person doing their own version.

And sometimes all of those things matter.

(To put this in a rather more modern context: one of the other links that came across my browser this morning was the annotations for the musical Hamilton. (This link has more info about the annotations). You can imagine most historical mythological texts having that same kind of density of reference.)

That doesn't mean that retellings are bad or wrong or worthless - quite the contrary, they can often bring a new understanding, or shift how you look at a particular set of events, or whatever. But that doesn't mean you're not missing things if you avoid reading the original, or at least as close to the original as you can get.

I tend to think that's even *more* true with mythology than for most things, and particularly mythology rooted in a particular culture, because understanding the surrounding culture will help you make choices about your modern practice, in a way that a modern telling might not.

We have tons of resources about ancient Egypt now, for example - historical, archaeological, etc. But someone who has grown up in the United States is going to have a hard time intuitively and emotionally understanding the rise and fall of the Nile, the effects on it, the reasons that certain kinds of rituals and magics are so predominant, the way the calendar works, why it's like that - without spending some time really thinking about the world those people lived in and probably some fairly immersive research. That is going to involve reading a bunch of those historical texts.

(The same concepts apply to other cultures, naturally, even if the specific details change: for example, many people sort of gloss over what it's like to live with the long dark and the long cold winters of Scandinavia, and the kinds of things that this suggests to people wanting to survive and thrive there.)

And to put it in your fanfic terms: a lot of the people doing modern tellings skimp on the worldbuilding, or they're writing an AU where they've moved Ancient Egypt (or whatever) to a modern setting in ways they aren't directly aware of. Some of those are *amazing* stories, but that doesn't mean they're giving you a great source for parts of what's in them.
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Anisaer

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Re: Old & New
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 12:29:59 pm »
Quote from: Aubren;181029

They didn't do much deity honoring/worshipping. They mostly went camping to enjoy nature.

 

 
Right, so depending on the path, "enjoying nature" can be a significant part of how one honors or worships their deity(ies).

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