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Author Topic: Personal Relationship?  (Read 5944 times)

Kraken

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2015, 02:11:31 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;179444
And, honestly, I can't bring myself to care all that much, because I don't really know what anyone's beliefs are.  I can know what they say they are, but people lie.  And lots of belief-oriented things are sort of... maybe not quite the stuff of 3am drunken bullshit sessions, but unless they've got practical effect, then they're not... practical.  They don't matter, compared to what people do.

The idea that "religion" boils down to "belief" is so weird to me, because belief is so obviously the most unverifiable, unmeasurable, unobservable thing about it.


This is very helpful clarification. I was very stressed out earlier about what you had to say about belief but now that I have a better understanding, I feel more confident about how to go about my path :) thank you.
"you have risen from the ashes, with outspread arms, face to the sun, eyes closed, full of radiance..."

Kraken

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2015, 02:14:13 pm »
Quote from: Mountain Cat;179450
Another way to explain it:

My Belief:

I'm a Pantheist, and Animist and a Polytheist. Basically, when I started trying to understand all this stuff, I went to wikipedia and looked up bunches and bunches of terms. Those ones fit the feelings I had and the way I thought the universe worked.

Also, I believe that a Deity called me. Not using words, but through signs, visions and omens.

To other pagans, my beliefs don't matter. As in, they aren't important and they aren't going to judge me on them. I am free to believe as I will. Unlike a few friends of mine, who, being Christians of the same denomination, believe the exact same thing: the end times, paradise on earth, that sort of thing. Their beliefs are the important part of their religion.

While pagan beliefs are important, they are important on a personal level. Your beliefs are important to you, mine to me, and I won't tell you that your belief is wrong, and you won't tell me that mine is wrong. :)

What is also important is practice. Getting the ritual or spell or offering correct. Not being Wiccan, I don't know how they go about their rituals. I can speak for some Druid ritual. It is important to do the right things in the right way, in order that the ritual works. No one is going to condemn you if you get it wrong and there is a lot of room for personalisation and ensuring that the ritual is done in a way that speaks to you.


So, yeah. It does matter what you believe. It matters to you, which is why you are here, asking questions and trying to sort things out. You *will* come across beliefs within the different Pagan groups and religions. A belief in a certain goddess or idea of where a person goes after death. But once again, that is personal. You probably won't end up in a group or religion that has beliefs that are completely opposed to what you already believe, to some extent. You believe in a Mother Goddess-- you probably will gravitate towards religions or groups that are accepting of the Mother Goddess.

And that's the way in which belief can be important. To You. :)  


Hope I made sense. Typing while sick. :S


This is perfect way of describing belief to me. Thank you so much. I see too how important it is to practice rituals correctly. How do I know if I am doing it right? I don't want to do it on my own until I have participated with someone more skilled than I am.
"you have risen from the ashes, with outspread arms, face to the sun, eyes closed, full of radiance..."

Kraken

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2015, 02:17:22 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;179454
Each one's spiritual journey is their own...


I understand what you're saying and this was a very helpful piece of information. I feel more directed. Thank you :)
"you have risen from the ashes, with outspread arms, face to the sun, eyes closed, full of radiance..."

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2015, 07:08:43 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179465
It's good to know what things can be focused on during ritual and meditation...can they be considered the same thing? When would I choose to use one over another?

I often combine ritual and meditation. There are probably some persons out there, who are able to easily meditate without any preparatory or closing exercise, but I am not one of them: For me, a short ritual serves as a good preparation for meditation. The outline of this preparation depends on which sort of meditation will follow.

Also remember, that there exist many different methods for meditation, but you may have encountered some of these during your Christian phase. I did: Ignatian meditation is not at all the same thing as centering prayer.

The basic methods are also possible to use within a Pagan context, although classical myths, symbolical places or other narratives are used instead of the Christian Bible.

It is also possible to find similarities to Buddhist methods: While centering prayer share an affinity with (but is not entirely identical with) Zen methods, Ignatian meditation share an affinity with Tibetan methods.

When ritual acts and meditation are closely intertwined for the entire duration of the exercise in the purpose to unite with the deities, it's called theurgy. A paralel to pagan theurgy is found within Tendai Buddhism in which a fire sacrifice is combined with visualisations. Similarly, the Christian Eucharist might be performed in a theurgical way, although this is not always the case.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 07:10:54 pm by RecycledBenedict »

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2015, 07:28:51 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179465
It's good to know what things can be focused on during ritual and meditation...can they be considered the same thing? When would I choose to use one over another?

I might add that a fourth method will observe your own mental content and habits, in order to cultivate self-knowledge and dispassionate liberty. That method share an affinity with what Theravada Buddhists and Stoics do. Within Christianity it is found in at least St. Augustine and Blaise Pascal. The technique is almost (but not entirely) the same in these cases. The Buddhists are probably those who have theorised most about it.

As in the three other examples, technique transcends religious boundaries. Each technique may be adapted for the purposes characteristic for a particular religion.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 07:36:16 pm by RecycledBenedict »

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2015, 01:12:33 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179467
I see too how important it is to practice rituals correctly. How do I know if I am doing it right? I don't want to do it on my own until I have participated with someone more skilled than I am.


The thing is, what is correct within one setting, might be incorrect in another setting. Let me compare with rituals from other areas: People don't behave in the same way on Remembrance Day as they do on a wedding.

Those who reconstruct Graeco-Roman religion use different libation vessels for different deities. Those who reconstruct Norse religion (some of my friends do) are not very picky about which vessels to choose. Those who reconstruct Egyptian religion clean their hands with water and natron. Those who approach the deities in a modern way, don't necessarily clean themselves before the ritual, and those who practice Caribbean Spiritism mix water and colognes when they prepare for a ritual. Each practice is correct within its own setting, but incorrect (or unnecessary) outside that setting.

That said, some modern practices are useful. Out of pragmatism some of us appreciate usefulness, even if the useful practices are not historically attested among ancient pagans.

In some books about paganism, you will encounter words such as centering or earthing. In reality, I have heard several pagans define these words in several different ways, sometimes using the definition of one of these exercises about the other exercise, so in my experience these words cause more confusion than they bring clarity. People don't use them in the same way.

Let me instead write about the following exercises in this and a handful of following messages in this thread:
  • Relaxation
  • Connectedness to Cosmos
  • Banishing the irrelevant
  • Subtle sensations
  • Working as a group
  • Defining your symbolical world
  • Raising wards
  • Opening gates


Have you listened to sound files for Relaxation techniques any time? To be relaxed is not falling into a heap with spaghetti arms and a rubber spine, but to let tensions in muscles go, and let thoughts be focused instead of all over the place. You have to sit comfortably, but with an erect spine, on a chair with a straight back, on a meditation bench or a zafu-pillow. For some, it will help to tense each muscle before relaxing it, in order to notice the difference between tension and relaxation more clearly. Attention on your breath is often a good tool for achieving relaxation. If it is hard to achieve perfect relaxation on a chair or zafu-pillow in the beginning, perform the exercise lying down outstreched on your bed, but don't fall asleep. With time, it will become easier, to perform the exercise while sitting. In my next message, I will write about connectedness to Cosmos.

And I end this message with a very generic morning prayer. It is ascribed to the Christian saint St. Patrick, but the content is probably based on pre-Christian Celtic beliefs:

I arise today, through
The strength of heaven,
The light of the sun,
The radiance of the moon,
The splendor of fire,
The speed of lightning,
The swiftness of wind,
The depth of the sea,
The stability of the earth,
The firmness of rock.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2015, 12:36:54 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179467
This is perfect way of describing belief to me. Thank you so much. I see too how important it is to practice rituals correctly. How do I know if I am doing it right? I don't want to do it on my own until I have participated with someone more skilled than I am.

I mentioned Connectedness to Cosmos yesterday.

We are of course connected to the rest of existence all the time, but everyday duties and the stream of information in the modern society often cause us to forget it. A useful exercise in some types of ritual, following relaxation, is to acknowledge this connectedness in a conscious, intentional and aware way. There now exist a plethora of such connectedness exercises, many of them designed with a particular religion or myth in mind.

The use of connectedness exercises is borrowed from ceremonial magic, and, since most Western European ceremonial magicians before the early 20th century were Christians, the earliest attested connectedness exercise was Christian in nature. It is based on the Protestant ending of the prayer Our Father, and will be found in Eliphas Levi's Ritual of Transcendental magic, chapter four.

Some pagans have a chequered past with Christianity, or worse, and in those cases the Kabbalistic Cross in Levi's or Golden Dawn's versions will certainly not do as connectedness exercises.

The basic idea with a connectedness exercise is to relate to the rest of the worlds, and to find oneself at the centre of the universe.

Two misconceptions have to be avoided in this regard. 'Centre of the universe' is not to be taken in an egotistical way, and on the globular surface of the planet Earth there does not exist any centrepoint in the literal and factual sense. Don't let this symbolism go to your head and make you egocentric, and don't obsess with geometry and topography when the figure of speach serve a symbolic and existential purpose.

Regardless of how you chose to express this exercise in words, the purpose is to connect to the highest divine and the deepest divine and all the directions of the world as you subjectively perceive it. We usually talk about 'the Sun rising', since that is our subjective experience, although we intellectually know that it is rather the Earth which revolves around its own axis.

In a suggestion for group ritual when pagans share ritual space with their Christian and Agnostic friends, I used the following form as a connectedness exercise. It is more or less devoid of mythological language, but make us aware of the time of the day (or night) and which phase of the synodical month it is. Take a look on the sky before this exercise, or, if it is cloudy, check a table of moon phases up beforehand. Italicised parts have to be adopted to the circumstances.

Let us take a deep breath twice and relax,

(deep breaths)

gratefully acknowledge
our bodily presence
at this physical place,

(deep breaths)

the sky above

(deep breaths)

the earth below

(deep breaths)

the daylight
[drawing near in the east/enthroned in the zenith/
departing in the west/resting in the antipodes]


(deep breaths)

night-times’ veiling darkness
[drawing near in the east/enthroned in the zenith/
departing in the west/resting in the antipodes]


(deep breaths)

the Sun
[rising in the east/shining in the south/
descending in the west/hidden under the horizon]


(deep breaths)

the Moon
[shining/hidden]
in the [west/south/east/north]


(deep breath)

and the Inner Light in our deep minds.

(deep breath)

Suggestions for how to construct a connection exercise with mythological content is given in this article on AODA's website in the segment about The Elemental Cross.

http://aoda.org/Articles/The_Sphere_of_Protection.html

A good idea is to visualise beams of light from the height, from the depths, from the right, from the left, and perhaps also front and back during a connectedness exercise.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 12:42:09 pm by RecycledBenedict »

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2015, 01:58:24 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179467
This is perfect way of describing belief to me. Thank you so much. I see too how important it is to practice rituals correctly. How do I know if I am doing it right? I don't want to do it on my own until I have participated with someone more skilled than I am.


Some people are excellent at doing several things at the same thing. I am not such a person. I am unable to small talk while cooking, for instance.

Some of the exercises I have mentioned are, for some persons, combineable.

I have heard some magicians claim to use the famous Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram as a Swiss army knife, connecting to Cosmos, banishing the irrelevant, defining their symbolical world, raising the wards and opening the gates, all at the same time.

I have met some pagans who are able to use ADF's famous Tree visualisation with a tree drawing up water from the ground, receiving sunlight from above, its branches mingling with other trees, for several purposes: Connecting to cosmos, activating subtle sensations, and establishing a working group, all at the same time.

I have heard Wiccans describe how their circle casting banishes the irrelevant, defines their symbolical world, raising the wards and opening the gates, all at the same time.

Personally, I would be unable to do all of this simultaneously. I have to concentrate on one  activity at a time. Therfore the list with very distinct exercises after each other, instead of one Swiss army ritual doing all things at once.

RDNA is a loose Druid network, which differ from the British type of modern Druids, in that regard that they do not open their ritual by creating sacred space by the means of casting a circle or something similar. Philosophically, they insist that all Nature is holy, and of this must follow the conclusion that there neither is need to, or means to, make the already holy Nature 'holier'.

This opinion is good food for thought: Which worldview do we have, consciously or unconsciously? Dualistic, monistic, qualified dualistic, qualified monistic, monocentric, polycentric, non-opposed binary...

Linguistically, 'holy' and 'sacred' does, however, not have exactly the same content. It is perfectly possible to make an already holy place sacred, in the sense 'taken in use for a religious purpose'. In effect, the RDNA Druids does take places in use for their grove meetings, although in a considerably less formal way than many other pagans or magicians, so their rejection of 'sacredness' only goes that far.

I have already mentioned, that many forms of modern paganism did emerge out of ceremonial magic, and under influence of that (the reconstructionist forms of paganism less so). Ceremonial magicians during the late Middle Ages, the Renaissance and early Enlightenment era, draw circles with chalk on the floor (indoors) or circles in the mud or soil outdoors, by the help of a sharp instrument of some sort - a dagger or sword, for instance. The idea was in many cases to protect themselves against evil (or at least ambiguous) spirits, although when circles were used in communication with good angels the circles seem to have served a purpose closer to what we call sacred space today.

The circles of Renaissance ceremonial magicians seem to have served at least two of the purposes modern magicians and pagan distinguish from each other: Banishing and defining the symbolical world.

In this post I will only concentrate on Banishing.

If you happen to be a dualist, your banishings will be closer to the Renaissance magicians in form: Some of the spiritual Powers out there are bad, and before you invite the good spiritual Powers, you have to exorcize the EVUHL things.

Then, of course, you might happen to be quite of a monist, regarding Nature as essentially good, although some good things in the wrong place will cause less good effects. Fire is much more useful and cozy when it burns from a candle or in a bonfire, than when it destroys vast areas of woodlands. Electricity is useful when it causes our computers, stoves and microwave ovens to work, but not when a child plays with metal paperclips by a socket. The same may apply to spirits, if we happen to believe in spirits. Spirits who serve a certain purpose are not necessarily beneficial in circumstances outside that purpose. We don't want them around, when other activities, states or entities are sought.

We do not necessarily need to believe in spirits. A banishing of the irrelevant may be helpful anyhow. The irrelevant is not evil in absolute terms, but it is irrelevant at the time and at the place we perform a ritual. You will perhaps need to banish your worries about a job application, the thought of awaiting workload, the nagging awareness of the need for changing tires on the car, or something along these lines. In this secular and psychologising sense, banishing will mean the switch from an everyday state of mind to a state of mind focused on the deities or magic. The irrelevant will have to go.

It is usually useful to let a banishing take place after relaxation and a connectedness exercise, since these awake your ability to perform a banishing.

In the weblink I posted in my last message, an hour ago, AODA describes The Elemental Cross (which is a connectedness exercise) followed by a banishing of the four elements.

A banishing ritual will not necessarily make use of elemental symbolism, although that symbolism is useful for many. If you google around among Chaos magicians, you will find many examples of banishings expressed in other symbolical ways.

Read examples of banishings. Experiment. Play around with it. Find a method that works for yourself, and which is consistent with your worldview. Change if needed.

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2015, 06:32:41 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179464
THIS!!!! This makes a lot more sense to me!! Thank you so so so much for clearing this up!! I do wish to do things correctly...but where do I get guidance for this? Are there any consequences for doing things wrong in ignorance?

 
I'm glad my explanation helped. :)

As for doing the right things and consequences for doing them wrong...well, yes, there are always consequences. To everything.

If you are doing, say, a spell by yourself and you mess it up, the consequences may be that it doesn't work. Or it works, but not in the way you intended. Or it results in some energy buildup in that part of the house that you then need to clean up. Etc. If you do a spell and you don't mess it up, the consequences will likely be that it works, probably in the way you intended.

By and large the consequences of doing things 'wrong' while solitary are...minimal? Unless you're promising grand gestures to deities you've just met, or jumping headfirst into the deep end of magic without starting small, it's hard to really screw things up. Deities, in my experience, don't get pissed until you break commitments you've made to them. So don't make any commitments you can't keep. Or make them on a temporary basis -- ie, "I'm going to give you libations for one month while we're getting to know each other." Or whatever works for you.  

So when it comes to solitary practices, I say: start small and see how it feels, then expand. (If you're interested in witchcraft in general, I recommend Mrs. B's Guide to Household Witchery. It's vaguely Wiccish, but there's lots of good info in there for people just starting out and practiced hands alike. She also has simple celebrations for the 8 holidays of the NeoPagan Wheel of the Year, if that interests you, as well as simple steps to start out with magic and deity worship. I wrote a pretty in-depth review here, so you can see if the book is something that might be useful for you.)  

When it comes to ritual with other people, when you first start out it's likely you're going to public rituals, not private ones. In which case, just show up and follow general rules for being polite with people you've just met. Public rituals are often a way for a group to let the general public know more about their path/tradition. So it's usually a pretty good space to learn more from pagans in your area -- or at least meet them and get some food. ;) Observing/participating in the public ritual will give you a good idea for what's expected for that sort of ritual with those particular people, so you'll know for next time what's likely to happen, and what's likely to be expected of you (if anything).

If someone invites you to a private ritual, or a coven or group that meets on the regular, be honest and share your fears with them. Tell them you're super new and scared of messing things up and you're not sure what's expected of you. If they're worth their salt they'll reassure you and make sure you're well-prepared for whatever their group has planned and what they expect of you. Ideally they should schedule a meeting with you and the group before engaging in any private ritual, to make sure you're all on the same page.

Again, with other people it's hard for you to mess things up unless you, you know, abandon all rules of polite society and purposefully knock over a shrine or streak through the circle screaming I AM THE LIZARD KING or something like that. Observe, learn the standards, and if you have questions -- ask someone! (After the ritual, of course.)

The really important thing to remember is that we all start out in ignorance, and the only way to leave ignorance is by, well, doing (in the case of practice) or reading (in the case of theory). If the gods were wont to smite those who made mistakes while they're learning, there wouldn't be a lot of pagans around.

Is going to your local Pagan Pride Day an option for you? If so, it's a good chance to meet other pagans and see some public ritual. You can just hang back and observe, and see what other people do to honor the gods. It might spark some inspiration for you, and you might meet some really cool people.

If I'm correct as to your location, this year's PPD hasn't happened yet. It's scheduled for September 12th. I can PM you with some links, if you like. :)
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Kraken

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2015, 11:28:43 pm »
Quote from: Morag;179604
I'm glad my explanation helped. :)

As for doing the right things and consequences for doing them wrong...well, yes, there are always consequences. To everything.

If you are doing, say, a spell by yourself and you mess it up, the consequences may be that it doesn't work. Or it works, but not in the way you intended. Or it results in some energy buildup in that part of the house that you then need to clean up. Etc. If you do a spell and you don't mess it up, the consequences will likely be that it works, probably in the way you intended.

By and large the consequences of doing things 'wrong' while solitary are...minimal? Unless you're promising grand gestures to deities you've just met, or jumping headfirst into the deep end of magic without starting small, it's hard to really screw things up. Deities, in my experience, don't get pissed until you break commitments you've made to them. So don't make any commitments you can't keep. Or make them on a temporary basis -- ie, "I'm going to give you libations for one month while we're getting to know each other." Or whatever works for you.  

So when it comes to solitary practices, I say: start small and see how it feels, then expand. (If you're interested in witchcraft in general, I recommend Mrs. B's Guide to Household Witchery. It's vaguely Wiccish, but there's lots of good info in there for people just starting out and practiced hands alike. She also has simple celebrations for the 8 holidays of the NeoPagan Wheel of the Year, if that interests you, as well as simple steps to start out with magic and deity worship. I wrote a pretty in-depth review here, so you can see if the book is something that might be useful for you.)

When it comes to ritual with other people, when you first start out it's likely you're going to public rituals, not private ones. In which case, just show up and follow general rules for being polite with people you've just met. Public rituals are often a way for a group to let the general public know more about their path/tradition. So it's usually a pretty good space to learn more from pagans in your area -- or at least meet them and get some food. ;) Observing/participating in the public ritual will give you a good idea for what's expected for that sort of ritual with those particular people, so you'll know for next time what's likely to happen, and what's likely to be expected of you (if anything).

If someone invites you to a private ritual, or a coven or group that meets on the regular, be honest and share your fears with them. Tell them you're super new and scared of messing things up and you're not sure what's expected of you. If they're worth their salt they'll reassure you and make sure you're well-prepared for whatever their group has planned and what they expect of you. Ideally they should schedule a meeting with you and the group before engaging in any private ritual, to make sure you're all on the same page.

Again, with other people it's hard for you to mess things up unless you, you know, abandon all rules of polite society and purposefully knock over a shrine or streak through the circle screaming I AM THE LIZARD KING or something like that. Observe, learn the standards, and if you have questions -- ask someone! (After the ritual, of course.)

The really important thing to remember is that we all start out in ignorance, and the only way to leave ignorance is by, well, doing (in the case of practice) or reading (in the case of theory). If the gods were wont to smite those who made mistakes while they're learning, there wouldn't be a lot of pagans around.


This is immensely helpful, thank you!  

Quote
Is going to your local Pagan Pride Day an option for you? If so, it's a good chance to meet other pagans and see some public ritual. You can just hang back and observe, and see what other people do to honor the gods. It might spark some inspiration for you, and you might meet some really cool people.

If I'm correct as to your location, this year's PPD hasn't happened yet. It's scheduled for September 12th. I can PM you with some links, if you like. :)


I went to last year's pagan pride day :) it was awesome and I've met a few people. I am very excited to go again! I am also often asking questions about mentoriship etc on their facebook page but I'm not getting a whole lot of answers...I find it a lot easier to work one on one...while everyone has been very generous in lending their knowledge and support to me (which is amazing!) I can sometimes get easily overwhelmed and spin in circles and become certain that I'll run away with my tail tucked between my legs because the way of doing things are so diverse, I feel as though I could easily do something wrong and mess up so bad that I would run back to familiar Christianity. Even if I mess up badly in Christianity, it's familiar and I'm not worried about "God's wrath" so to speak because there's that promise of "clean slate" etc. Ah. So much to learn...
"you have risen from the ashes, with outspread arms, face to the sun, eyes closed, full of radiance..."

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2015, 11:53:12 am »
Quote from: Kraken;179467
This is perfect way of describing belief to me. Thank you so much. I see too how important it is to practice rituals correctly. How do I know if I am doing it right? I don't want to do it on my own until I have participated with someone more skilled than I am.


I feel uncomfortable when New-Agers speak about energy. I really do.

In everyday speech, energy is not the thingy New-Agers speak about. Energy is movement, light, heat... Energy is measurable. It's the domain of physics.

Does that mean that I deny the existence of the thingy New-Agers speak of? Well, some of it, to be honest, but not all. In a way similar to other human beings even the New-Agers are able to have subjective experiences of subtle sensations, and these do they call energy. I wish there was a better word.

The subtle sensations under discussion are not measurable. That cause them to fall outside the scope of natural science. On the other hand, so many of us have experienced them. It is possible to discuss them with others.

The publicly most visible cultivation of these subtle sensations is probably Tai chi or Qigong. The Chinese letter 氣 is transkribable in two commonly used ways with the Roman letters we are used to: Chi and Qi. In Chinese alternative medicine, inner alchemy and martial arts, two other subtle sensations are mentioned beside Qi: Jing and Shen.

In some forms of Hinduism and Buddhism, that began to emerge in the 5th century CE, but wasn't systematised distinctly until the 8th century, there exist exercises with meditation and breathing, that cause a subjective sensation 'move' from rectum up along the spine to the top of the head. In Sanskrit, two of these subjective sensations are called prana and kundalini. In some cases, this experience will include religious ecstacy (and the cultivator will probably feel horny). Within Hinduism the experience is sometimes mythically explained as intercourse between the god Shiva and the goddess Shakti.

Some people maintain that qi and kundalini are 'exactly the same thing'. I am cautious. The experiences seem to be related and similar, but they are not explained within the same religious paradigms, and I doubt that any experience will be entirely free from its cultural setting. The Chinese seem also be more interested to bridle excessive sexual aspects of the experience, in the hope of prolonging life. Let us be content with the claim, that the Chinese experiences and Hindu experiences we are discussing here, belong to a common family of human experiences. Same is a problematic word.

In Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah, God is supposed to manifest in ten divine attributes, called sephiroth. It is possible to meditate over these divine attributes in several ways - visualising colours is one of the methods. The sephiroth also corresponds to particular limbs or points of the human body. This thought was probably not originally intended to be used for a Western equivalent to the aforementioned Chinese and Hindu exercises, but ceremonial magicians in the late 19th century began to use it in that way.

An exercise along these lines, called The Middle Pillar Ritual, was invented by Isaac Regardie between the World Wars on the basis of what he had learned within the late Victorian magical order Golden Dawn (which has nothing to do with the right-wing-party in today's Greece). A distinct difference between Hindu kundalini exercises and the Middle Pillar Ritual is, that while kundalini exercises bring subtle sensations upwards from rectum, the Middle Pillar Ritual brings overworldly subtle sensations down into the body of the cultivator unto the feet. Again, the two sorts of exercises obviously belong to a certain family of exercises and experiences, but  I think it would be wrong to say that they are 'exactly the same'. They aren't. There are more than one sort of subtle sensations.

Exercises of this sort often concentrate on particular points in the human body. Exactly how many the points are, differ considerably between particular systems. Don't be fooled into thinking that the points are as many as seven and never more numerous than seven. That particular idea was coined by the Russian spiritualist medium Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, who founded the Theosophical Society in 1875. According to her worldview, most of the worlds religions are descendants or outward forms of an ancient 'Wisdom Religion' that had been practiced on four former continents, now lost (of Atlantis was the last), and the number seven occurred very frequently in this hypothetical 'Wisdom Religion' of hers. She brought this streamlining and homogenising of the world's religions about, only at the cost of misrepresenting her sources: She disfigured what the Lutheran mystic Jacob Boehme actually taught, and she claimed that the five dhyani buddhas, who are important parts of Mahayana Buddhism and Vajrayana Buddhism, are actually seven (even if this is unknown to all and every Buddhists except Mdme Blavatsky herself).

The Hindu and Buddhist sources number the points in the body (so called chakras) in several ways: four, six, seven, eight, ten or twenty-eight.

Chinese manuals on Qi Gong or inner alchemy mention seventeen major points and many minor ones.

The Middle Pillar Ritual makes use of five.

In Eastern Orthodox Christian mysticism, the heart is the point on which the meditator concentrates while (s)he practice certain breathing exercises and pray the Jesus Prayer. This type of exercise is called hesychasm.

In Sufism, the myticism of Islam, meditators concentrates on various points in the body, lataif, while visualising several prophets, including Jesus and Mohammad.

An Irish poem The cauldron of poesy written in the 7th century, seem to contain pre-Christian beliefs about three points in the human body: The head, the heart and the groin. Read more here:

http://www.seanet.com/~inisglas/cauldronpoesy.html#born

and here:

http://intothemound.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/druidic-mystical-practice-pt3-three.html

With these examples I hope I have demonstrated that exercises that combines circulation of subtle sensations, visualisation of points in the body and breathing exercises, exists in many of the world's religions, and seem to be a human experience which, in a sense, transcends religious boundaries. It also seems like different such exercises serve slightly different purposes. In one or another form, exercises like these are used by magicans, and in group ritual of purely devotional nature such raising of power may be used in ways which are not overtly magical. Which method to chose is a decision in which I can't help you. You must find your own way.

Personally, I find it logical to perform an exercise of subtle sensation after a banishing, and not begin the cultivation of subtle sensations until the place (and your mind) is free from disturbances.

Fleur

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2015, 01:54:58 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;179642
I feel uncomfortable when New-Agers speak about energy. I really do.


+1

I also agree with the rest of your post, but especially this.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2015, 08:59:31 am »
Quote from: Waterbender;179661
+1

I also agree with the rest of your post, but especially this.

I don't doubt their good intentions, but that particular word is muddling the waters. Religions are usually healthier when they avoid using pseudo-science as an apology for their practices.

That applies to many else than the New Age movement, too.

Creationism is a sub-division of Christian Fundamentalism, which emerged in 1929 within Adventism, but spread into several other Christian denominations of Evangelical persuasion. Creationism raises several strange claims: That the speed of light continuously decrease, that light didn't refract in the same way before 'The Deluge', and that geological layers of fossils are explained by advanced dinosaurs fleeing to higher terrain before being drowned.

Some forms of Hindu nationalism treat the myths and chronologies in Mahabharata and the puranas as literal and factual history, and therefore look upon academic historical research with disdain.

The aforementioned Theosophical Society nurture a worldview containing sinking continents, which may have been defencible at the time Blavatsky wrote her two big books, but which is impossible by now, when we know about plate tectonics. That worldview works much better in sword-and-sorcery novels, within which the idea can be quite entertaining. Both H.P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton-Smith and Lin Carter got their inspiration to write some fiction after reading the Theosophists.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 09:01:57 am by RecycledBenedict »

Kraken

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2015, 08:39:13 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;179642
I feel uncomfortable when New-Agers speak about energy. I really do.

In everyday speech, energy is not the thingy New-Agers speak about. Energy is movement, light, heat... Energy is measurable. It's the domain of physics.

Does that mean that I deny the existence of the thingy New-Agers speak of? Well, some of it, to be honest, but not all. In a way similar to other human beings even the New-Agers are able to have subjective experiences of subtle sensations, and these do they call energy. I wish there was a better word.

The subtle sensations under discussion are not measurable. That cause them to fall outside the scope of natural science. On the other hand, so many of us have experienced them. It is possible to discuss them with others.


I understand what you mean...your explanations are amazingly intricate and detailed but I do understand...and perhaps should find a better word myself than "energy" because I am guilty of using that word to describe religious and spiritual experience. (Just as a fun side note, I usually get excited when I see other people mention Ki/Qi because of the associations with Dragonball and the 'power' they sense etc....yep, silly, but geeky fun ^_^)

Quote
With these examples I hope I have demonstrated that exercises that combines circulation of subtle sensations, visualisation of points in the body and breathing exercises, exists in many of the world's religions, and seem to be a human experience which, in a sense, transcends religious boundaries. It also seems like different such exercises serve slightly different purposes. In one or another form, exercises like these are used by magicans, and in group ritual of purely devotional nature such raising of power may be used in ways which are not overtly magical. Which method to chose is a decision in which I can't help you. You must find your own way.

Personally, I find it logical to perform an exercise of subtle sensation after a banishing, and not begin the cultivation of subtle sensations until the place (and your mind) is free from disturbances.


Yes, this was all helpful, thank you :)
"you have risen from the ashes, with outspread arms, face to the sun, eyes closed, full of radiance..."

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Personal Relationship?
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2015, 05:30:22 pm »
Quote from: Kraken;179714
I understand what you mean...your explanations are amazingly intricate and detailed but I do understand...

Sorry for being intricate. I was in the hope that what I wrote was clear.

Quote from: Kraken;179714
and perhaps should find a better word myself than "energy" because I am guilty of using that word to describe religious and spiritual experience.

If many persons in our surroundings use it, it is easy to use it ourselves.

Quote from: Kraken;179714
(Just as a fun side note, I usually get excited when I see other people mention Ki/Qi because of the associations with Dragonball and the 'power' they sense etc....yep, silly, but geeky fun ^_^)

I didn't know that qi/ki (ki is the transkription from Japanese) was mentioned in Dragonball. I have never read it nor watched it, but I have heard about it from my younger friends and the children of my older friends. I belong to the generation that watched He-man and some years later read Hellblazer myself, so anime and manga are slightly outside my sphere.

My knowledge just goes that far that something called Pokemon was some sort of collecting game for small children ten years ago (which drove their parents crazy), and that there probably exist an anime about a kami with an umbrella called Totoro, but that's all.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 05:31:10 pm by RecycledBenedict »

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