The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

how do you handle being an ecletic witch with the cultural appropriation in mind?

 
There have been a lot of discusion threads on this subject such as here, here, here, and here

For myself I don't take things from closed cultures or religions, or if people of other cultures and religions tell me it's not okay to do so. And I don't take things from initiatory religions that I am not initiated into.

If I can't find a way of doing something without culturally appropriating then I tend to think either I'm not looking hard enough, or I don't actually understand either what it is I am trying to do, or I don't understand what it is the thing I would be culturally appropriating is doing. (Because if something is SO culturally specific that no other culture has anything like it I don't believe that I, as a person not from that culture, am going to understand the nuances of it)

and I'm starting to dabble in African culture/magick. I don't want to offend so many groups of people and to be far most African-Americans in America practice Christianity and/or Islam so I don't feel like I'm disrespecting them if I do dabble in Hoodoo or Voodoo.

No offense, but a person should be careful of stereotyping. Regardless of skin colour, many Christians and *absolutely* almost all Muslims would not be tolerant of someone practicing Voudon . In quite a few Islamic theocracies in the world a person would be jailed or worse for even suggesting such a thing.

I believe it's very important to inform oneself of the various belief systems one either practises or puts their practice next to/up against.

There have been a lot of discusion threads on this subject such as here, here, here, and here

Thanks to Jake_ for posting the links to earlier threads.
 
I think this is an important issue, and it's one I've wrestled with a lot.

I'll reiterate my views by linking to (or, at least trying to link to) this specific post and the post of mine that follows this one, which I think nicely sum up my thoughts and approach to cultural appropriation in the context of religion:  http://ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?p=121813

The problem with cultural appropriation in witchcraft is that the witchcraft won't work for you.

 
I don't necessarily agree with that. If you look at the major types of pagan witchcraft (British Traditional Wicca, Feri, etc.) they are very already very eclectic by nature. Gardner pulled Wicca together from various sources, such as Mediterranean mystery cults, Celtic, culture, Eastern mysticism and philosophy, modern occultism, and so on. Victor Anderson viewed his Feri Tradition as universal, and used various sources, such as Hawaiian Huna, Catholic Marian veneration, Isiac devotion, etc.

Maybe it's politically incorrect, but I don't think cultural appropriation is that big of a deal as long as one is respectful and not trying to exploit these traditions for profit. I mean, it's so common to humanity to incorporate what works from other religions into one's own practice that is is pretty hard to avoid. Something like Christianity, for example, is based on Jewish scriptures but the vast majority of Christians are not Jewish. Ancient cultures incorporated foreign gods into their pantheons and religious systems all the time. Without it, human cultures would be pretty stagnant.

No offense, but a person should be careful of stereotyping. Regardless of skin colour, many Christians and *absolutely* almost all Muslims would not be tolerant of someone practicing Voudon . In quite a few Islamic theocracies in the world a person would be jailed or worse for even suggesting such a thing.

I believe it's very important to inform oneself of the various belief systems one either practises or puts their practice next to/up against.

 
And yet hoodoo is a historically Christian practice.

Which takes us to one of my key guidelines around cultural appropriation, which relates to what you've said: how much do you know about the cultural, magical or religious systems you're borrowing from? And how has this affected your moral and ethical frameworks around how you treat those other cultures? This can mean the history behind a set of practices, or why certain things would or wouldn't be done, or even the socio-political history of how our (current) cultures relate to others...

It's relevant to so-called 'dead cultures' where their descendants have opinions about what their ancestors used to do. (F'ex, do you know what calling youself and your practices by a certain cultural name from history would mean to a modern person from that cultural group's ancestors and what they might think of your practices?) But it's even more important in cultural, magical or religious contexts where these practices still exist.

How we behave towards another culture as a whole and their knowledge and practices matters, as part of this. A hoodoo woman I once met talked about being a good guest at someone else else's table, in someone else's culture. She wanted me to think about the *responsibilities* that come with being a member of a privileged majority who works with aspects of a magical system that come from the culture of an oppressed minority. (In a whole other country, in my case.) That system of folk magic is *part* of that culture. You can't remove it and claim it is part of something else. So if, for example, you borrow from hoodoo and then call what you're doing Pagan, you'd better have a good answer for any Christian hoodoo worker who asks you what the hell you're doing with their stuff.

Here's an example of this kind of cultural appropriation. A leading member of an American druid order once got into an argument with me online, about his right to use hoodoo and call it Pagan. He said he didn't mind stealing from Christians who just complain about owning everything and didn't have any rights to a culture when they've stolen from Pagan before anyway (or something along those lines). He appeared not to understand anything about black Christianity, particularly in the US. Nor why hoodoo workers are part of an oppressed minority despite being Christian. Nor what variations exist in the concept of 'Christian', beyond his idea of a modern white American Christian. Nor what effects his misappropriation could have on real people and their cultures. Very bad behaviour from someone who is listened to on the subject of magic.

IMO, none of this means people *can't* practice things from open systems. (Although I take my final cue on that from the people whose culture it is.) But I believe that it does mean looking at what it means to be a good guest in someone else's culture. Personally, I have some of my own guidelines for this. They include:

- not mixing hoodoo with other practices;
- not teaching others about hoodoo, except in a very introductory way, and always being responsible and starting with accurate cultural realities when I do that;
- being aware of practices within the hoodoo community, like the mainly Christian nature of the practices (calling on the Christian God as part of certain workings, f'ex) and deciding if I can do that;
- if I can't do the above, thinking about  whether I should be doing any of the practices at all;
- if I do decide to practice within a different (non-Christian) framework, *not* telling others about that and representing it as 'authentic'.

These are very contextual, fluid guidelines for me, and I'm still working out what they all mean in practice. But the key issue is treating other cultures with respect, not misrepresenting their practices, and learning as much as I can, with a bit of humility.

Sometimes when people start shouting avout how annoying the topic of cultural appropriation is, I think they sometimes want reassurance that they can do whatever they want and it's all fine, or some clear rules in what they should and shouldn't do. Actually, I think this is something that requires deep engagement with other people and other cultures, and actual moral and ethical and philosophical *work* regarding what we believe and practice, why, and what are position in relation to other cultures is and should be. I think more witches and magical practitioners could do with reading some  post-colonial theory instead of some of those Pagan books.

- Leithin Cluan the quiet and unopinionated.

It's taking practices from cultures that have been marginalized and/or oppressed that the people from the culture have specifically asked people not to take. Kemeticism, f'ex, is not CA. A person outside of Hawaiian culture not taught by someone from Hawaiian culture, who is integrating Hawaiian practices into their own practice, would be appropriating from Hawaiian culture.

This is one of the very tricky bits, IMO.  Because cultures are not monoliths. They are made up of individual people who hold varying opinions on what it's ok to share with people outside the culture and under what circumstances.

To continue with the example of Hawai'i, since that was cited in the quoted post, and because it's one I'm pretty familiar with personally: it's not hard to find members of traditional Hawai'ian culture who will teach hula, f'ex, which is not simply a dance form, but an important part of Hawai'ian spiritual practice. And many of those teachers will teach *authentic* hula.

And, while there aren't a lot, there are some books out there that were written by members of the culture and talk about authentic traditional Hawai'ian spiritual practice. (There are also many more books that are misrepresentations written by people outside the culture.)

So, as someone deeply interested in Hawai'ian spirituality, I can read those books and learn hula and visit sacred sites and read the mythologies and the chants, etc. I can even incorporate some of that into my own spiritual practice.

And some members of the culture are completely fine with that, while others are not.

Just because one member of a culture thinks it's ok to teach outsiders about the culture, that doesn't mean anyone else agrees.

And that is very difficult to balance. It complicates the question of cultural appropriation and blurs the line.

I do think there is a line. On one side of the line are behaviors that are clearly and undeniably appropriative, like learning a little bit about a culture's practices, twisting them into something unrecognizable, calling yourself by the term used for the culture's religious leaders, and selling that as authentic.  The so-called "plastic shaman" comes to mind.

On the other side of the line are behaviors that are clearly and undeniably NOT appropriative. That is, not using elements of culture despite your interest in it.

It's the part in the middle -- that blurry line -- that's tricky.

This is one of the very tricky bits, IMO. Because cultures are not monoliths. They are made up of individual people who hold varying opinions on what it's ok to share with people outside the culture and under what circumstances.

[...]

Just because one member of a culture thinks it's ok to teach outsiders about the culture, that doesn't mean anyone else agrees.

And that is very difficult to balance. It complicates the question of cultural appropriation and blurs the line.

I do think there is a line. On one side of the line are behaviors that are clearly and undeniably appropriative, like learning a little bit about a culture's practices, twisting them into something unrecognizable, calling yourself by the term used for the culture's religious leaders, and selling that as authentic. The so-called "plastic shaman" comes to mind.

On the other side of the line are behaviors that are clearly and undeniably NOT appropriative. That is, not using elements of culture despite your interest in it.

It's the part in the middle -- that blurry line -- that's tricky.

 
Certainly it is a blurry line, and that does make questions of appropriation difficult. I wish it weren't such a difficult topic. Because you're right--cultures *aren't* monoliths, and asking everyone to agree may be convenient for you (general you), but squashes important viewpoints.

As has been mentioned before in the thread, it really does take a lot of thought and research and general legwork to navigate. My post does make it seem much more black and white than it actually is, which wasn't my intention.

I now have a question, which might actually be a question for another thread. I'll make a post somewhere when I figure out a way to phrase it better than how it's currently manifesting in my head.