collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Paganism and Masculinity  (Read 5817 times)

Demophon

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 258
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
Paganism and Masculinity
« on: August 13, 2015, 12:13:11 am »
This is something I've been thinking about recently, as I personally have been exploring my own masculinity and identity as a man much more deeply in the past year or so. As a queer male, it's not something that always came easy to me, but lately I've felt the need to identify more strongly as a man, and unconsciously my behaviour and style of dress seems to have changed accordingly.

With that I have come to notice that mainstream neo-paganism really doesn't have much representation when it comes to traditional masculinity. Of course a lot of these traditional gender roles are socially defined, and gender itself is more of a spectrum than a binary, but I do think there are general differences between the sexes on the whole, even if it only comes down to hormones. I just find that in the pagan community broadly, not many people are interested in traditional masculinity. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, as many people come into paganism deeply wounded by the over-arching patriarchal culture, and the more female-dominated nature of the more mainstream modern pagan paths balances that out. I do consider myself a feminist despite the negative associations that term has acquired, and I'm not advocating a "men's rights" movement, or any such ridiculousness. I just found recently the community is missing something for me (many things, actually, but this in particular).

One of my main reasons for coming into paganism through neo-Wiccan books was that the idea that there was a feminine aspect to Deity made a lot of sense for me, both on a societal level to counteract the patriarchy, and a biological level in which females were the source of life and the prototype of creation, with the male Y chromosome being a mutation of the female original. I still believe in that, I just find that the pagan community generally is kind of socially alienating for a good chunk of the population that identifies with more traditional manliness. Neither male nor female pagans are especially athletic, and I find that many male pagans have long hair, wear lots of jewelry, have gentler personalities (especially compared to many pagan ladies who do not :P), and none of that is negative, just that it's not really a complete picture of male identity for me.

What might contribute to this is the theology of mainstream paganism, which is Wiccanish for the most part, and the male god in Wicca has often struck me as effeminate to a degree. Maybe because feminism has so often overlapped with pagan witchcraft for the past few decades, but it seems that male anger, aggression, competitiveness, etc. are just not politically correct within paganism. While it may be empowering to rediscover female deities with these characteristics, pagans tiptoe around identifying these qualities with male deities, perhaps because it reminds them too much of the Abrahamic Father God, which is valid. I have heard of "men's mysteries" in the Craft, but I'm not too familiar with them. Mostly the ones I have heard of tend to be gay male groups who may see the Horned God more as a symbol of what attracts them sexually then as a figure they identify with outside of sexuality, though that is an important aspect. I myself have only recently started to identify with male Deity rather than view it as "Other," as my main relationships with the Divine have been with goddesses. It just seems uncommon for men to identify with divine masculinity in paganism, and the reason for that may be that it is so underdeveloped in modern pagan paths.

Anyway, I hope some of these ramblings made sense. I didn't really organize this ahead of time and instead just spewed out my thoughts when I should be getting some sleep. Let me know what you think.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:15:32 am by Demophon »

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 08:48:00 am »
Quote from: Demophon;178647
Of course a lot of these traditional gender roles are socially defined, and gender itself is more of a spectrum than a binary, but I do think there are general differences between the sexes on the whole, even if it only comes down to hormones.


Gender roles are just socially defined, but sexes are about biology (and there are more than two sexes when we take a look at the chromosome variations, but governmental administration forces persons with unusual chromosomes into a binary system). I have noticed that men and women sometimes use language in two different ways, which may be a source of unnecessary conflicts: I never understand when a question is not just a question and a statement not just a statement. I am unable to decipher it.

Quote from: Demophon;178647
Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, as many people come into paganism deeply wounded by the over-arching patriarchal culture, and the more female-dominated nature of the more mainstream modern pagan paths balances that out. I do consider myself a feminist despite the negative associations that term has acquired, (...) One of my main reasons for coming into paganism through neo-Wiccan books was that the idea that there was a feminine aspect to Deity made a lot of sense for me, both on a societal level to counteract the patriarchy, and a biological level in which females were the source of life and the prototype of creation, with the male Y chromosome being a mutation of the female original. I still believe in that, (...)


For many persons, the Catholic insistence that God is not male nor female (as per Catholic Catechism §239), and the presence of female imagery about the divine in Proverbs and Wisdom (Sophia), are not reason enough to chose Christianity - even Neo-Gnostic Christianity - over some sort of Paganism.

Quote from: Demophon;178647
and I'm not advocating a "men's rights" movement, or any such ridiculousness.


Why not? It is not ridiculous. If dads were given their equal share of payed paternal leave, society would be much more equal. it is not the only step necessary, but it is one of them.

Quote from: Demophon;178647
I just find that in the pagan community broadly, not many people are interested in traditional masculinity.  (...)  I just find that the pagan community generally is kind of socially alienating for a good chunk of the population that identifies with more traditional manliness. Neither male nor female pagans are especially athletic, and I find that many male pagans have long hair, wear lots of jewelry, have gentler personalities (especially compared to many pagan ladies who do not :P), and none of that is negative, just that it's not really a complete picture of male identity for me.


Among the most noticeable Pagans over here, the Fornsed practitioners, I have found all sorts of men, and a considerable percentage of those who prefer to have long hair are also interested in physical exercise (but if that physical exercise is floorball or the gym varies of course). I don't understand what the lenth of hair has got do do with the subject? Since the television serial Vikings began to be broadcasted, a new haircut has come in vogue: A combination of shaved sides of the head and thin braids at the top of the head.

Quote from: Demophon;178647
(...) but it seems that male anger, aggression, competitiveness, etc. are just not politically correct within paganism. While it may be empowering to rediscover female deities with these characteristics, pagans tiptoe around identifying these qualities with male deities, perhaps because it reminds them too much of the Abrahamic Father God, which is valid.
(...)
 It just seems uncommon for men to identify with divine masculinity in paganism, and the reason for that may be that it is so underdeveloped in modern pagan paths.


In Reconstructionism - any reconstructionism - it is unavoidable to acknowledge both male and female deities, even if some of these will be less personally important for you. I do not, personally, have any deep relation to neither Mars nor Venus (or Jupiter), but I recite their hymns dutifully, in order the keep the Pax Deorum. Paganism don't need to be emotional all the time, sometimes it is just a juridical protocol, the Roman Way.

And I wouldn't say that the Fornsed bunch are afraid of traditional masculinity. I would especially point you in the direction of the devotees of Thor.

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 09:31:19 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;178662

Why not? It is not ridiculous. If dads were given their equal share of payed paternal leave, society would be much more equal. it is not the only step necessary, but it is one of them.


 
Ah - things like paternity leave is NOT what men's rights activism is about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights_movement looks like a fairly good overview - I wouldn't worry about the flags at the top.

But at a minimum, you need to know that Men's Rights Activists are SPECIFICALLY anti-feminism - that women's rights have gone too far, that men are discriminated against, that things are totally unbalanced and women have "all the power".  It has very specific meaning in the States.

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 09:39:32 am »
Quote from: Demophon;178647


 
What makes something masculine?  what makes it feminine?  What makes anger masculine or feminine, or power, or any of that?

I honestly don't know what someone even means when they say "masculine" - it's a vague word, with different meanings to different people.  Without some idea of what masculine IS, how can anyone find it?

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 09:56:02 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;178663
But at a minimum, you need to know that Men's Rights Activists are SPECIFICALLY anti-feminism - that women's rights have gone too far, that men are discriminated against, that things are totally unbalanced and women have "all the power".  It has very specific meaning in the States.


I didn't know this. Thank you for sharing this information.

Over here, the debate is - among other things - what the percentages of parental leave ought to be. Conservatives want the parents to decide themselves, and also grant the right of another type of payment for staying home with non-infants. Liberals want to split parental leave payment in three parts: A mandatory part for one parent, a mandatory part for the other parent, and a third part for the parents to split in shares the size of which they decide themselves. The Left want the shares to be 50% in a mandatory way. Both the Liberals and the Left oppose payment for staying home with non-infants, since they suspect it would harm mothers' pensions as long as men are payed with higher salaries.

Demophon

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 258
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 11:05:35 am »
Quote from: HeartShadow;178664
What makes something masculine?  what makes it feminine?  What makes anger masculine or feminine, or power, or any of that?

I honestly don't know what someone even means when they say "masculine" - it's a vague word, with different meanings to different people.  Without some idea of what masculine IS, how can anyone find it?

 
Well, like I said in the original post, I was talking about more "traditional" - or stereotypical - ideas of manliness that one doesn't see much in pagan communities. For example, interest in sports, aggressiveness, competitiveness, and those kids of testosteronish kinds of behaviours. Pagan men like wearing jewelry and reading fantasy novels, and not so much passing around a football, from what I've seen. Which is fine, I don't want to get myself in any trouble here by saying anything that could be taken as offensive. I'm just trying to understand common behaviours among a group of people.

Also like I said, something like anger isn't specifically masculine or feminine, but when it's associated with men in paganism it's a lot more problematic for the community than when it is associated with women. Finding one's male identity as a pagan can be difficult as men aren't really allowed certain feelings. Once again, not trying to be offensive, I'm not saying women are forcing some kind of oppressive feminazi regime on men, just saying that it has been difficult for these modern traditions, which are to some degree a reaction against patriarchal culture, to construct a complete image of masculinity, or male identity.

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 12:04:55 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178669
Well, like I said in the original post, I was talking about more "traditional" - or stereotypical - ideas of manliness that one doesn't see much in pagan communities. For example, interest in sports, aggressiveness, competitiveness, and those kids of testosteronish kinds of behaviours. Pagan men like wearing jewelry and reading fantasy novels, and not so much passing around a football, from what I've seen. Which is fine, I don't want to get myself in any trouble here by saying anything that could be taken as offensive. I'm just trying to understand common behaviours among a group of people.

Also like I said, something like anger isn't specifically masculine or feminine, but when it's associated with men in paganism it's a lot more problematic for the community than when it is associated with women. Finding one's male identity as a pagan can be difficult as men aren't really allowed certain feelings. Once again, not trying to be offensive, I'm not saying women are forcing some kind of oppressive feminazi regime on men, just saying that it has been difficult for these modern traditions, which are to some degree a reaction against patriarchal culture, to construct a complete image of masculinity, or male identity.

 
well, part of that is simply subculture.  Not religious identity so much as just the people that self-choose tend to have specific things they're looking for.  If you already fit the dominant culture, you're less likely to look at subcultural religions either.

Aggressiveness - well, that's specifically a problem in our culture to begin with.  ASSERTIVE behavior is one thing - AGGRESSIVE is another.  A person bigger than me (which is pretty much every male from teen on up, I'm a short person) behaving in an aggressive manner is FRIGHTENING.  So yeah, it's not something that's going to be encouraged in a space that's supposed to be safe.

Sports - there are plenty of non-pagan venues for sporting, playing and watching.  It's a dominant-culture thing.  I suspect there's more people interested in sports in pagandom than you'd think - ever try getting a game going?  Sometimes the problem is that no one's leading the way.

but I honestly think the minute you start applying words like "masculine" or "male identity" to the issue, you muddy the waters.  I like football.  I'll happily play a game of catch.  But if you're looking for /masculine/ you're probably not looking at the short woman with a ponytail.

If you want some kind of mystic Man Mystery, that's an entirely different thing than people to play catch with.  Clarity helps.

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 12:05:38 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178669
Well, like I said in the original post, I was talking about more "traditional" - or stereotypical - ideas of manliness that one doesn't see much in pagan communities. For example, interest in sports, aggressiveness, competitiveness, and those kids of testosteronish kinds of behaviours. Pagan men like wearing jewelry and reading fantasy novels, and not so much passing around a football, from what I've seen. Which is fine, I don't want to get myself in any trouble here by saying anything that could be taken as offensive. I'm just trying to understand common behaviours among a group of people.

I've always found it interesting that the Germanic worldview (theoretically) had a gender understanding of male/non-male, which wasn't really based on biological gender but on a state of being. Children were non-male regardless of biological gender, the elderly were non-male regardless of gender. But any person (woman or man) would be considered male if they were in the state of being male.

It sounds to me like you see paganism in much the same way, except with a gender understanding of female/non-female, and I can actually totally see how you get that. To be honest, I don't know how that helps though. You could work with that understanding and focus on being in a state of non-female more than focusing on a strict ideal of pagan masculinity? I don't know. But I do hope you keep us updated on this, because I'm actually quite interested on how you'll make it work.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:05:56 pm by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 12:41:54 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178669
Well, like I said in the original post, I was talking about more "traditional" - or stereotypical - ideas of manliness that one doesn't see much in pagan communities. For example, interest in sports, aggressiveness, competitiveness, and those kids of testosteronish kinds of behaviours.

 
I would expect that there are a number of factors involved here.  Here are some off the top of my head:

* people who are comfortable with normative mainstream behaviour are less likely to become involved in marginalised social groups
* in the absence of rigid role policing, people who aren't interested in normative topics don't feel the need to pretend to be interested to fit in
* in the presence of different role policing, people will downplay their interests that don't fit and play up things that do
* not everyone considers stuff like "long hair" to be gendered, or not in the way that current culture does; after all, in a number of cultures it's a token of virility and potency to have long hair (and cutting it could be literally emasculating)
* broader models of "masculinity" mean that there isn't as tight clustering - I mean, where would you put my ritual groupmate who has no interest in sportsball but does armoured combat and archery recreationally?  That's not normative performative masculinity but I suspect even the "traditionally masculine" sorts would consider a capacity to win ritual combat qualifies as masculine
* goddess-centricity and associated stuff tends to lead to people being more aware of the toxicity in parts of normative masculinity and thus to those behaviours being discouraged, at least in those people assumed to be men

My experience with the male pagans that I've known well has been, for the most part, that they are secure enough with their maleness that they don't feel the need to engage in display behaviour; if they're not interested in football, they don't feel the need to pretend they are to be "one of the guys".

To the extent that the pagan community encourages people to present themselves more honestly and without mandating insecure masculinity (which I think varies wildly and is not as good as some people would like to argue) that's a good thing; to the extent that there's a different set of norms being policed, a bad thing.

(One of my husbands has long expressed that one of the things that infuriates him about modern mainstream masculinity is that he is discouraged from presenting himself attractively.  What good is it being vain if you can't find any nice shirts?)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Sophia C

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Location: London, UK
  • *
  • Posts: 2041
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 81
    • View Profile
    • http://leithincluan.wordpress.com/
  • Religion: Druid, Celtic/contemplative Christian, Gaelic-ish polytheist, on a Mystic path
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/them
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2015, 12:57:56 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178669
Well, like I said in the original post, I was talking about more "traditional" - or stereotypical - ideas of manliness that one doesn't see much in pagan communities. For example, interest in sports, aggressiveness, competitiveness, and those kids of testosteronish kinds of behaviours. Pagan men like wearing jewelry and reading fantasy novels, and not so much passing around a football, from what I've seen.


How are any of those things either masculine or non-masculine, at a base level?

I'd say that men in the UK Pagan community are as diverse as in any other community, in terms of gender presentation and behaviour. One of my friends makes his own jewellery from various metals on a forge. Then he wears it. Another guy I know wears a massive Thor's hammer, has long hair, and runs a farm and works very hard on the land. Other Pagan men I know include those are non-traditionally gendered but present in a very apparently 'masculine' way, and men who like both dancing and building fires at the Pagan camp I go to. Where would you draw the line between masculine and non-masculine in any of these behaviours or presentations?

Any concept of 'masculine behaviour' or 'feminine behaviour' is totally socially constructed and can vary from era to era and from society to society. There are entire fields of sociological study examining concepts like masculinity and femininity. R.W. Connell talked about 'hegemonic masculinity', a concept which, while a little dated and not without its critiques, is a useful one to start with when examining concepts of masculinity in society. 'Hegemonic' refers here to the social power and status associated with a certain kind of masculinity. Initially, sociologists thought that a particular form of masculinity (brutal, sexually aggressive etc) was culturally valued than other forms of masculinity. In fact it's probably much more complex than that. There are many forms of masculinity, all socially constructed, none 'natural' as such. There's no reason why aggression should be associated with men but gentleness with women, or football with men and knitting with women.

As for the studies on the differences in the way men and women speak, those have been debunked by socio-linguists. They were based on poor scholarship and biased readings of data, for the most part. http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Mars-Venus-Different-Languages/dp/0199550999/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295903195&sr=1-1
"We're all stories, in the end. Make it a good one, eh?"
- Doctor Who

Altair

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • Posts: 3752
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 937
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2015, 01:14:38 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178647
This is something I've been thinking about recently, as I personally have been exploring my own masculinity and identity as a man much more deeply in the past year or so. As a queer male, it's not something that always came easy to me, but lately I've felt the need to identify more strongly as a man, and unconsciously my behaviour and style of dress seems to have changed accordingly.

With that I have come to notice that mainstream neo-paganism really doesn't have much representation when it comes to traditional masculinity.


Another "traditionally masculine" (cisgendered) queer male here, and I totally hear you.

Granted, our categories of "masculine" and "feminine" are largely socially constructed (though I think you can make an argument for any behaviors largely driven by testosterone as biologically masculine, as opposed to socially derived). But I think your shorthand of "traditionally masculine" is fairly clear: The behaviors/appearance that modern Western culture has assigned to a masculine persona.

Is there room for that in the Wicca-related neopagan movement?
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2015, 02:13:27 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178669
Well, like I said in the original post, I was talking about more "traditional" - or stereotypical - ideas of manliness that one doesn't see much in pagan communities. For example, interest in sports, aggressiveness, competitiveness, and those kids of testosteronish kinds of behaviours. Pagan men like wearing jewelry and reading fantasy novels, and not so much passing around a football, from what I've seen. Which is fine, I don't want to get myself in any trouble here by saying anything that could be taken as offensive. I'm just trying to understand common behaviours among a group of people.


Let us put a bracket around the issue, wether what you are talking about is not also the experience of many women - it probably is.

What I like to call background anger is an experience I know from my own life. It is not caused by any particular cause - it just exist. If that background anger is permitted to explode in a way that harms a stranger on the street a late night outside the pub, or is permitted to explode in a way that harms your (future) kids, it is something bad. Mainstream Christianity*, eclectic Wicca** and middle class values all team up together to tell you that it is bad, but seldom none of them are able to do anything else than give you feelings of guilt. From my own experience, I would give you the advice to take the brunt of the problem by taking a jog or go down the gym an hit the iron. The leftovers are possible to canalize into good causes that makes society better.

Protectiveness is another part of the picture, at least in my own experience. The warm knowledge that your mates are able and willing to protect you, and the confident knowledge that you are able and willing to protect those closest to you and also your mates is a virtue, not a vice.

What I believe is what you call testosteronish kinds of behaviours could find a socially accepted outlet if you begin practicing Mixed Martial Arts. Have you given that a try?

Playfulness is also a part of the picture. One part of us don't grow up, and in a society laying weight on professional behaviour at work, we need outlets of playfulness when we are free.

A straight guy faces several conflicting norms and expectations about what it means to be a man. You faces the same norms and expectations, but in some respects your burden is heavier, since the straight world and the gay world all project further contraditory norms, prejudices and expectations on you about what it means to be queer. To play with traditional masculinity is one way to unburden yourself from all these projections, but it is not (or need not to be) an end in itself, but a means towards self knowledge, liberty, integrity and balance.

* I expect better from the Jesuits, though.
** I expect better from initiatory Wicca.

Altair

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New York, New York
  • *
  • Posts: 3752
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 937
  • Fly high and make the world follow
    • View Profile
    • Songs of the Metamythos
  • Religion: tree-hugging pagan
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2015, 03:11:49 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;178682

What I believe is what you call testosteronish kinds of behaviours could find a socially accepted outlet if you begin practicing Mixed Martial Arts. Have you given that a try?


Hopefully Micheál will find this thread; he's probably the most "traditionally masculine" guy here at the Cauldron, considering he regularly competes in mixed martial arts bouts.
The first song sets the wheel in motion / The second is a song of love / The third song tells of Her devotion / The fourth cries joy from the sky above
The fifth song binds our fate to silence / and bids us live each moment well / The sixth unleashes rage and violence / The seventh song has truth to tell
The last song echoes through the ages / to ask its question all night long / And close the circle on these pages / These, the metamythos songs

RecycledBenedict

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2015
  • Posts: 851
  • Total likes: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2015, 03:31:54 pm »
Quote from: Altair;178687
Hopefully Micheál will find this thread; he's probably the most "traditionally masculine" guy here at the Cauldron, considering he regularly competes in mixed martial arts bouts.

But at the same time, MMA subverts the codes of former ages' 'traditional masculinity'!

Men born in the 1930's (and in some cases 1940's and 1950's), especially if they are conservative, would be aghast at the hugging of combatants after a match, crying: 'No homo!'

MMA contestants, just as Football players of today (European/Commonwealth Football, not American), are very often very aware of how they look, and spend a lot of time in the bathroom.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 03:34:16 pm by RecycledBenedict »

Tom

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 399
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://serpentinetom.wordpress.com
Re: Paganism and Masculinity
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2015, 05:49:13 pm »
Quote from: Demophon;178647
With that I have come to notice that mainstream neo-paganism really doesn't have much representation when it comes to traditional masculinity. Of course a lot of these traditional gender roles are socially defined, and gender itself is more of a spectrum than a binary, but I do think there are general differences between the sexes on the whole, even if it only comes down to hormones. I just find that in the pagan community broadly, not many people are interested in traditional masculinity.

When you say "traditional" masculinity, what "tradition" are you taking this from? Is it traditional masculinity as defined by our modern western tradition?

Why is your definition of traditional masculinity based on the physical aspect only? Why can't we go with other definitions such as being an excellent orator or debater? These things aren't necessarily gendered nowadays, but they've been used in the past as a hallmark of great men, particularly in Hellenic society.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 05:50:10 pm by Tom »

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
45 Replies
19301 Views
Last post February 09, 2021, 07:32:07 pm
by Rodney_Dawn
25 Replies
6830 Views
Last post September 29, 2011, 08:15:30 pm
by Figment99
0 Replies
3086 Views
Last post June 02, 2012, 02:32:18 pm
by RandallS
13 Replies
2530 Views
Last post December 13, 2012, 09:58:13 am
by Sophia C
26 Replies
5399 Views
Last post October 29, 2014, 07:02:46 pm
by Kyndyl

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 224
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal