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Author Topic: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?  (Read 11615 times)

beachglass

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Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« on: July 28, 2015, 12:10:52 pm »
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.
"The further we go, and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."  ~ Robert Smith

NiDara

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 01:48:19 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.


When I first started looking into Paganism, I thought the male/female polarity was interesting; however, I found it had no relevancy to how I actually viewed things. So, it doesn't matter in my work-in-progress cosmology/theology. It has its place, of course, but it's not the end all be all of everything. Personally, I find that binary perspectives on anything can sometimes be limiting, but if it works for you, great.

RecycledBenedict

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 02:30:45 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever?


Only in the beginning of February and beginning of August, by using Morien's imagined Druidic myth about Celi and Ced. The rest of the year it is of no consideration. I do not practice a fertility religion.

Quote from: beachglass;177894
Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?


The alchemists from Geber onwards preferred the polarity between Sulphur and Mercury. I am of the opinion that this avoids any potential problems with gender essentialism.

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 02:41:44 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?


I did when I was a babypagan.  And I fell straight into one of the major failure modes of it, where I did a bunch of unfortunate lumping and became incapable of dealing with Powers who did not fit the model cleanly.

I stopped doing that because it was foolish. ;P

Quote
Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?


Work with, yes.  Consider the essential, prime, or sole polarity, I really don't think so.

One of the problems with this gendered polarity thing is that it's so culturally normative that basically all possible polarities have been folded into it.  "Rational/intuitive" is another way of saying "male/female" in the surrounding culture, as is "active/passive", as are "aggressive/peaceful", as are "subject" and "object".  "Public" and "private".  All these things get gendered.

And that carries on further: "day" and "night" get gendered, and in a fairly consistent way, too.  "Earth" and "sky".  "Man vs. nature" as a narrative trope is carried into a lot of pagan religious thought and nature is so often made feminine, to go with the gendered-male all-humanity.

So if one's not really careful, one doesn't deal with "male" and "female".

One deals instead with "maleactivesubjectpublicdayskyaggressiverational" and "femalepassiveobjectprivateearthnurturingemotional".  Or one compensates by breaking these in half and flipping them to get "But this goddess is active (even if she is also nurturing and the moon)" without separating out all the assumptions of either "female" or "active".

I love me some polarities.  Love love love.  One might say that almost my entire spiritual life is built around twinning.  But taking any individual polarity as deeper and more meaningful than the others is a dangerous course, and I would say especially gender.  The thing about polarities is that there are thousands of them - and not every one is relevant to everything - and even when they often line up, they don't always line up - and the colour, the iridescing glory of reality, depends on not flattening everything out into monochrome.
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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 06:11:10 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.

 

Quarks may be assigned color values (among other things) but that does not mean those tiny sub-atomic particles are actually red, green, or blue. The names are for the convenience of sharing ideas and have fuck-all to do with the actual particle.

Likewise, I think terms masculine and feminine in the context of energy has fuck-all to do with with the actual energies and were so termed for the convenience of sharing ideas.

Honestly, I think the names are divisive and a distraction to getting Real Work Done and would love to have an agreed-upon alternative.
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Micheál

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 08:13:24 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?
.

 It is in Wicca at least. Polarity is important,  a male/female polarity being a part of that,  however trying to break every polarity down to either "male" or "female" is not.
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beachglass

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2015, 07:08:15 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.

 
In a response to another thread, which inspired me to start this one, I said:

Quote
I think of ['feminine energy' vs. 'masculine energy'] as a shorthand for 'energy that I perceive as feminine or masculine because its properties mostly align with qualities that my culture assigns to that gender.'


Which is true if I'm thinking about it, but I'm certainly not always thinking at that level, so I often question myself about whether I am engaging in lazy generalizations.

I've also wondered why I resonate at all with the male-female polarity, since it's not like I'm a real earth-mother type, or particularly in tune with my emotions, or especially intuitive, etc. (warning: inarticulate brainwanderings ahead)

The hypothesis I've been batting around lately is something along the lines of

  • the idea that men tend a certain way and women tend a certain way because of masculine vs. feminine energy is a misconception
  • the masculine vs. feminine energy, male-female polarity is rather the result of so much cultural focus on gender as binary (or, perhaps not solely the result of this, but strongly supported by it)
  • this makes the male-female polarity resonant/powerful, since people spend so much time mentally reinforcing it


This seems to work for me, but I'm still mulling over it...
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HeartShadow

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2015, 07:28:09 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894


 
I always find the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity stuff makes me feel non-HUMAN.  It's massively dysphoria-triggering for me, to the point of wanting to back out of the species.

I find being reduced to reproductive parts entirely creepy, even though I've actually even HAD a child and DO consider parenting an important part of my life.  I am not female-first and everything else after.  And being viewed that way .. UGH.  Rather just not be human at all.

Riothamus12

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2015, 09:56:38 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.
While i certain agree there are male and female currents of energy, this is not all there is. I have looked across many cultures and seen people interact with powers that do not fall into either one. I have seen peaceful, nurturing Gods and furious, reprimanding Goddesses. I have sen they who have elements of both. The earth may quake and the wind may be still. A great storm may well up and the earth may show no obvious motion.  How glorious is this variety of expression that appears among the Divine male and female alone! If we look outside of that, then we see even more. Any more, the gender associations of the elements,energies, and Divinities is more of just how that particular one expresses itself rather than a flat gender role. While I do often speak of Earth Mothers and Sky Fathers and other such things, it isn't the most important thing and I do my best to honor the many varied forms they can take. I also seek to honor Divinities that are not necessarily male or female. Furthermore, the relationship between them and my relationship to them is the most important thing.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:59:02 pm by Riothamus12 »
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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2015, 08:34:51 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177964


The hypothesis I've been batting around lately is something along the lines of

  • the idea that men tend a certain way and women tend a certain way because of masculine vs. feminine energy is a misconception
  • the masculine vs. feminine energy, male-female polarity is rather the result of so much cultural focus on gender as binary (or, perhaps not solely the result of this, but strongly supported by it)
  • this makes the male-female polarity resonant/powerful, since people spend so much time mentally reinforcing it


This seems to work for me, but I'm still mulling over it...


Complete tangent here: this topic put me in mind of a book I read once, Sex and Temperament by Margaret Mead, which discussed gender roles in some non-western cultures which were quite different from Western ones. Mind you, it was apparently written in 1935 so I have no idea how accurate the book actually is.
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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2015, 09:41:41 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.


I find the polarity a wonderful representation of union and balance in the energy of the universe. I'm still endeavoring to reach a genuine connection to any gendered deity (male or female) but I do connect greatly to the concept.
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Kyndyl

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2015, 11:10:12 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.

 


I try to stay away from assigning anything with gender terms. For me, there are projective and receptive energies, and aspects to all things.. and inside all people.. course I say this with the statement that I'm FtM and live as third gender -sliding back and forth between the two.I'm not comfortable defining anything along gender lines and prefer to see things along lines of active and passing, projective and receptive. which avoids the issue but still gets the message across and works with the polarity without gender essentialism.

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2015, 02:55:02 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;177965
I always find the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity stuff makes me feel non-HUMAN.  It's massively dysphoria-triggering for me, to the point of wanting to back out of the species.

I find being reduced to reproductive parts entirely creepy, even though I've actually even HAD a child and DO consider parenting an important part of my life.  I am not female-first and everything else after.  And being viewed that way .. UGH.  Rather just not be human at all.

 
Actually, had more thoughts on the matter.

For me, male/female is about basic physiology.  And while dysphoria is a real thing, and some people's physiology doesn't match their internal self, as a thing about life, male/female doesn't really bother me.  It's just a statement about what parts you have, or feel you should have, or whatever.

Masculine/feminine, OTOH, is about BEHAVIOR.  And THAT one weirds me the fuck out.  Because behavior is what we DO, who we ARE - and masculine-active vs. feminine-passive or feminine-receptive (depending on which system) creeps me out like crazy.

I am female.  It's the parts I have, and usually, that's something I'm fine with.  I'm NOT passive.  I'm active, I'm definitely assertive, and anything involving "being more feminine" hits me in the sense of having my identity being attacked as "wrong".

Male/female seems irrelevant to me outside of sexual attraction - but it's a thing-that-is.  Masculine/feminine, OTOH .... now we're getting into some really scary identity-policing stuff.

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2015, 12:25:54 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms.

It is a core and vital part of some forms of ceremonial magic and consequently many forms of traditional Witchcraft. Wicca being the primary and most well-known religion that operates on that paradigm.
To me, it is what it is. I don't think of that polarity as being the absolute be-all-end-all of metaphysical, magical, or theological construction. But neither is it necessarily damaging. I think that one has to look at it in its proper context; it makes sense in certain religious traditions, and that's okay, while it's not useful in other religious traditions, and that's okay too. It shouldn't be maligned, but nor should it be insisted upon as universal.

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Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2015, 08:10:29 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?


I used to work with it only because there was so much occult literature couched in that vocabulary. When I examined duality at all, I found more poles: extant and privative, central and marginal, mutually exclusive, actively opposing, and recognizing some singular things as a product of a synthesis of two things and wondering what made that distinction/synthesis possible... all vastly different kinds of polarity based on dualism. And when I work with dualism at all, it feels like something I can manage but most of me intuits that there are infinite multipolarities and cycles of singularities, so I fall into a grump about working within my limitations. Masculine/feminine still features and applies, I guess, but I don't always know what I'm supposed to do with it.
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