collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?  (Read 11617 times)

Lionrhod

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 167
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.lionrhod.com
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2015, 10:36:15 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.

 
A very interesting question.

In my path we define the "male" force as active and the "female" force as magnetic. Thus one goes out after something and the other draws it to them.

I have absolutely zero belief that only men "go out and get stuff done" and only women "wait for things to come to them." The male/female thing IMO is a metaphor.

My path further "breaks down" the god/dess as:

Male: Lover, Father, Warrior, Hunter
Female: Maiden, Mother, Matron, Crone.

And we see that all people whether male or female may have aspects of either the "masculine" or "feminine" or both.

I am primarily a Crone, but have parts of me that are Mother, Father and Matron. I relate to all the others on some level, but less than those mentioned.

Incidentally, we see the definition of Mother/Father as relating to how the deity/aspect relates to the child.

Mother: Oh honey, you got a booboo! I'm so sorry! Here, let me kiss it and make it better! Better now? Why don't you sit here and help me stir this pot.
Father: Ouch, bet that hurts. You won't do that again, will you? Lets just get that cleaned up  and go on to the next lesson.

The archetypes of Mother/Father began at a time when women nurtured their children for the first few years, and then men took on the rearing/teaching of male children later on. It possibly pre-dates a time when people may have even understood that sex creates children and that the two acts are related. In most ancient societies, a man's closest blood relative was seen as his sister's son, not his own.

Yes, our "modern" society is changing the definition of Mother/Father, and in my mind this is a healthy change. But these archetypes are so ingrained in the Collective Unconscious that it will be a long time before they change.
When given a choice between black and white, choose purple.
SpellCraft Secrets: The Art of Creating Magic Spells Made Easy 2nd edition, revised
Dark Moon Gates - Pagan YA Fantasy
Nenfari - FREE Dark Sword & Sorcery
The Spider\'s Yule Gift - A Children\'s Folktale & Polish Pagan Holiday Traditions
My Website

Lionrhod

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 167
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://www.lionrhod.com
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2015, 10:45:21 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;177908
and the colour, the iridescing glory of reality, depends on not flattening everything out into monochrome.


That is such a gorgeous line, that I may have to remember to quote you.

When given a choice between black and white, choose purple.
When given a choice between black and white, choose purple.
SpellCraft Secrets: The Art of Creating Magic Spells Made Easy 2nd edition, revised
Dark Moon Gates - Pagan YA Fantasy
Nenfari - FREE Dark Sword & Sorcery
The Spider\'s Yule Gift - A Children\'s Folktale & Polish Pagan Holiday Traditions
My Website

Yanshuf Ruah

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 2
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2015, 09:07:53 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

 
I have a few thoughts about this. First, as a transgender person, I have a lot of thoughts about some of the previous discussion in this thread, but I'd rather not get too derailed giving lengthy replies, so instead I'm going to say that if anyone is curious or wants a transgender perspective on this issue I'd be happy to talk to them.

Second, I should provide a disclaimer that my thoughts are purely theoretical about the nature of polarities, and not so much explicitly magical as I have no experience in magical workings. My thoughts are based on two arguments, one being the nature of a "polarity" and the other being the essential difference between sex and gender. I will start with the latter.

There is a world of difference, to me, in a male-female polarity and a masculine-feminine polarity. I'm going to interpret "masculine-feminine" here not as gender roles, which to me seems a false polarity altogether, but as gender itself: the mental experience, as opposed to the physical one, which is the male-female sex polarity. These two polarities are certainly distinct, and I feel you must choose carefully which you are talking about.

But more broadly, I think it's important to operationally define "polarity". A polarity must have two sides, but does that exclude intermediate states? Is every polarity a dichotomy? I don't actually think that. For example, light and dark form a polarity -- and the essence of light vs the essence of dark may form what looks like a dichotomy, because when you work with a polarity you are trying to characterize those essences -- but in the real world, there are many shades of lightness or darkness in between pure light and pure dark.

I see gender and, indeed, sex as being the same. There is a broad spectrum of gender identity, which I believe in accordance with my understanding of scientific evidence to be naturally occurring and biologically based (reference the story of David Reimer), and even physical sex is not so cut-and-dry as people believe. Intersex conditions are astoundingly common, although many if not most intersex people "pass" easily for one gender or another. But for enormously many people, genotypes (genes and chromosomes), endophenotypes (internal characteristics, ie hormones), and phenotypes (visible characteristics) are not all in alignment with one sex or another. And of course, as for the gender polarity/dichotomy, there are many transgender people in this world as well as many people who do not identify with one gender.

These people obviously exist within our natural world, so surely they are in accordance with nature? And so as a nature-based practitioner, I feel I must include all of natural variety. But this doesn't, for me, exclude the existence of a polarity, because I don't see polarity and dichotomy as synonymous. Just like light vs dark is still a polarity, even though there are an infinite number of shades in between.
יַנשׁוּף רוּחַ
yanshuf owl ruah spirit/breath/air
Call me Yan for short!

Floofy Bunny

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 77
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2015, 05:30:40 pm »
Quote from: Elding;182580
Frankly, I'm getting a bit weary of the whole thing. I would love to have a civil discussion on it one day, a conversation in which people don't get mad because they don't share my opinions.. eh, maybe one day.. in some distant, strange, perfect Utopia world, far over the rainbows.


People get upset because discussing gender involves people's very identity - it is very personal. And if people do get mad, that's not necessarily bad either. I see the word "civil" get used a lot in these types of discussions, but it seems to often mean something along the lines of don't make me uncomfortable, but maybe sometimes we need to be made uncomfortable?

Floofy Bunny

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 77
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2015, 05:33:43 pm »
Quote from: jsquared;182555
IThe existing studies definitely can be interpreted in many ways, and you have your interpretation and I have mine. I just can't help myself when people bring up bad science journalism; it's very much a hot button issue of mine.

 
Jsquared, I want to start a club with you "Against Bad Science Journalism." I am not a chemist, but a rhetorician, and the rhetoric of science fascinates me so and reading science journalism just gives me fits.

Floofy Bunny

  • Sr. Apprentice
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Posts: 77
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2015, 05:37:13 pm »
Quote from: Yanshuf Ruah;182949
I have a few thoughts about this. First, as a transgender person, I have a lot of thoughts about some of the previous discussion in this thread, but I'd rather not get too derailed giving lengthy replies, so instead I'm going to say that if anyone is curious or wants a transgender perspective on this issue I'd be happy to talk to them.

Second, I should provide a disclaimer that my thoughts are purely theoretical about the nature of polarities, and not so much explicitly magical as I have no experience in magical workings. My thoughts are based on two arguments, one being the nature of a "polarity" and the other being the essential difference between sex and gender. I will start with the latter.

There is a world of difference, to me, in a male-female polarity and a masculine-feminine polarity. I'm going to interpret "masculine-feminine" here not as gender roles, which to me seems a false polarity altogether, but as gender itself: the mental experience, as opposed to the physical one, which is the male-female sex polarity. These two polarities are certainly distinct, and I feel you must choose carefully which you are talking about.

But more broadly, I think it's important to operationally define "polarity". A polarity must have two sides, but does that exclude intermediate states? Is every polarity a dichotomy? I don't actually think that. For example, light and dark form a polarity -- and the essence of light vs the essence of dark may form what looks like a dichotomy, because when you work with a polarity you are trying to characterize those essences -- but in the real world, there are many shades of lightness or darkness in between pure light and pure dark.

I see gender and, indeed, sex as being the same. There is a broad spectrum of gender identity, which I believe in accordance with my understanding of scientific evidence to be naturally occurring and biologically based (reference the story of David Reimer), and even physical sex is not so cut-and-dry as people believe. Intersex conditions are astoundingly common, although many if not most intersex people "pass" easily for one gender or another. But for enormously many people, genotypes (genes and chromosomes), endophenotypes (internal characteristics, ie hormones), and phenotypes (visible characteristics) are not all in alignment with one sex or another. And of course, as for the gender polarity/dichotomy, there are many transgender people in this world as well as many people who do not identify with one gender.

These people obviously exist within our natural world, so surely they are in accordance with nature? And so as a nature-based practitioner, I feel I must include all of natural variety. But this doesn't, for me, exclude the existence of a polarity, because I don't see polarity and dichotomy as synonymous. Just like light vs dark is still a polarity, even though there are an infinite number of shades in between.

 
Yan, this was just beautifully written. That is all I have to say. :)

Wimsaur

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 109
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2015, 11:25:26 am »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.

Do you work with a male/female polarity always/sometimes/ever? What does that mean for you? If you did and then moved away from this, why was that?

Is it possible to work with this polarity without falling into a model of gender essentialism?

And of course your answers to the more astute questions that I didn't think of. :)

I will post some of my personal thoughts on this in a separate post.
Polarity need not be male and female. It's all about the balance between them. Many times the understanding of an idea cannot happen without exploring it's relationship to another idea.

Hot can not be understood without knowledge of cold. They are relative to each other.

In Hermetic philosophy, the male pole is the motivation, direction, force, and a goal of a thing. Mathematically it is a vector.
The female pole is the form that is taken to accomplish the male goal. It is scalar and has substance.

The one cannot exist without the other.

-Wimsaur

MeadowRae

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Location: West Virginia
  • Posts: 410
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 26
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Pantheist Pagan Witch with Celtic Leanings
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/He/She
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2015, 07:04:20 pm »
Quote from: Wimsaur;183312
Polarity need not be male and female. It's all about the balance between them. Many times the understanding of an idea cannot happen without exploring it's relationship to another idea.

Hot can not be understood without knowledge of cold. They are relative to each other.

In Hermetic philosophy, the male pole is the motivation, direction, force, and a goal of a thing. Mathematically it is a vector.
The female pole is the form that is taken to accomplish the male goal. It is scalar and has substance.

The one cannot exist without the other.

-Wimsaur

 
I have not explored Hermetic philosophy, but this concept is interesting. Maybe something that deserves more attention in my reading.
The genderqueer witch your mother warned you about

MeadowRae

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Location: West Virginia
  • Posts: 410
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 26
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Pantheist Pagan Witch with Celtic Leanings
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/He/She
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2015, 07:06:30 pm »
Quote from: Floofy Bunny;183074
Yan, this was just beautifully written. That is all I have to say. :)

 
Quoting just to agree. That was a wonderful post.
The genderqueer witch your mother warned you about

Wimsaur

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2014
  • Posts: 109
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2015, 09:53:15 am »
Quote from: ViolaRae;183599
I have not explored Hermetic philosophy, but this concept is interesting. Maybe something that deserves more attention in my reading.
The spirit of hermetic philosophy can be found in the book:
"The Kybalion" by Three Initiates.

It our public domain so can be found in full on the internet for free.

-Wimsaur.

MeadowRae

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Location: West Virginia
  • Posts: 410
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 26
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Pantheist Pagan Witch with Celtic Leanings
  • Preferred Pronouns: They/He/She
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2015, 09:12:54 am »
Quote from: Wimsaur;183613
The spirit of hermetic philosophy can be found in the book:
"The Kybalion" by Three Initiates.

It our public domain so can be found in full on the internet for free.

-Wimsaur.

 
I will be checking that out soon. Finding free, reputable, recommended resources is hard to do. Thank you. :)
The genderqueer witch your mother warned you about

Merin

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 206
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Male/female or masculine/feminine polarity, your views?
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2015, 12:19:22 pm »
Quote from: beachglass;177894
I am interested to hear your thoughts on the male/female or masculine/feminine polarity that is often taken as an assumed principle in some Paganisms. I have read many excellent arguments for why this polarity can be exclusive and damaging, and yet it does seem to still speak to some people.


Personally, I find gender polarity annoying (being a Celt at heart makes me do things in threes!), but it works for some people? I guess?

And I would be in the camp of "this is exclusive and damaging"  It's a limited - and frankly outdated - point of view.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
26 Replies
5350 Views
Last post July 26, 2012, 06:11:44 pm
by SunflowerP
2 Replies
1564 Views
Last post August 12, 2012, 05:54:15 pm
by Nomadic Spirit
16 Replies
5785 Views
Last post August 03, 2017, 03:48:35 pm
by Jainarayan
3 Replies
3347 Views
Last post February 13, 2020, 02:49:24 pm
by Eastling
50 Replies
5845 Views
Last post November 22, 2015, 11:28:05 am
by Juniperberry

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 212
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal