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Author Topic: Meso- and Neo-Druidry  (Read 3171 times)

RecycledBenedict

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Meso- and Neo-Druidry
« on: July 19, 2015, 08:06:28 am »
In another thread in another sub-forum, Sunflower and I came to discuss the terms Meso-Druidry and Neo-Druidry (originally invented by isaac Bonewits), the usefulness of the terms, and any possible definitions of them.

This is not a topic about which I am ready to rant on a soapbox. There are good reasons for making this distinction, but there are also good reasons against.

Personally, I find it useful to distinguish between the two, in order to not make anyone disappointed. If someone is interested in sacrifices to well attested Iron Age Celtic deities, but certainly not is interested in western esotericism, and happens to peek into OBOD or AODA will become disappointed. Likewise, someone who find meaning and awareness in Nature, seek personal development, enjoy Glastonbury, and want to do 'what those white-clad Druids in nemysses on photographs from Stonehenge do', will probably become disappointed by attending an ADF ritual. It is two different types or branches of Druidry, although historically related to each other. Some persons feel at home in both.

At the same time, both are 'new', in the sense that they lack any unbroken historical continuity with the Iron Age Druids, so it is not unreasonable to use the term 'Neo-Druidry' about both of them. Still, they are trying to do two different things.

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Re: Meso- and Neo-Druidry
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2015, 09:22:40 am »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;177593


 
Just a placeholder for now: I'm glad you took the initiative and started the thread, because it turned out that I didn't have time; I'll post a proper reply when I have a chance.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

SunflowerP

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Re: Meso- and Neo-Druidry
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2015, 08:05:30 pm »
Quote from: FraterBenedict;177593
In another thread in another sub-forum, Sunflower and I came to discuss the terms Meso-Druidry and Neo-Druidry (originally invented by isaac Bonewits), the usefulness of the terms, and any possible definitions of them.

This is not a topic about which I am ready to rant on a soapbox. There are good reasons for making this distinction, but there are also good reasons against.

Personally, I find it useful to distinguish between the two, in order to not make anyone disappointed. If someone is interested in sacrifices to well attested Iron Age Celtic deities, but certainly not is interested in western esotericism, and happens to peek into OBOD or AODA will become disappointed. Likewise, someone who find meaning and awareness in Nature, seek personal development, enjoy Glastonbury, and want to do 'what those white-clad Druids in nemysses on photographs from Stonehenge do', will probably become disappointed by attending an ADF ritual. It is two different types or branches of Druidry, although historically related to each other. Some persons feel at home in both.

At the same time, both are 'new', in the sense that they lack any unbroken historical continuity with the Iron Age Druids, so it is not unreasonable to use the term 'Neo-Druidry' about both of them. Still, they are trying to do two different things.

 
One technical point: Bonewits coined 'Mesopaganism' (and 'Paleopaganism', though not Neopaganism, though it's often attributed to him; in his own words, 'As “Neo-Paganism,” this term was popularized in the 1960’s and 1970’s by Oberon Zell, a founder of the Church of All Worlds.' - the term itself has been used as far back as the early 20th century); on his website, he seems to pretty consistently refer to 'Paleopagan Druids', 'Mesopagan Druids', and 'Neopagan Druids'.

That said, shortening them to 'Meso-Druid' and 'Neo-Druid' seems reasonable, if only to save typing out long phrases in full every time - especially since so much of Meso-Druidry really wasn't very Mesopagan.

It looks to me like you might have misunderstood my query in the other thread (for those who haven't seen the earlier discussion it's here); I don't dispute the usefulness of distinctions, nor do I reject the Meso/Neo distinction; I just question where to draw the line, whether it's the most useful model in all circumstances, and (more immediately to the convo in the other thread) whether it makes sense to apply that distinction to RDNA.

It seems to me that RDNA wasn't really any sort of Pagan (in the sense of being specifically, and positively, religious) before becoming - in its own right, and through its offshoots - entangled in the nascent neoPagan movement. Since it was founded as a puckish protest, it could be said to be pagan in those senses of 'pagan' that have less to do with religion per se, and more to do with disruption of statuses quo which would include status-quo religiosity; but that relates it much more to Beat/proto-hippie counterculturalism. Connecting it specifically to Mesopagan Druidry seems to me to be tenuous at best.

The other organizations you mention in the earlier conversation - OBOD and AODA - are much more clearly classifiable as Mesopagan, though alternately one could argue that OBOD is a neoPagan offshoot of The Druid Order (at the time of OBOD's formation, the Ancient Druid Order), which is very Mesopagan indeed.

I find that distinguishing fraternal Druidry from esoteric or mystical Druidry can also be useful, though the latter category does need to be broken down further when the reason for making distinctions is to help someone determine what organization(s) would best suit their own inclinations.

When it comes to the latter goal, if I were making suggestions to someone who 'is interested in sacrifices to well attested Iron Age Celtic deities, but certainly not is interested in western esotericism,' I likely wouldn't recommend Druidic organizations at all, but rather point them at Celtic Reconstructionism. Though ADF, as a broad organization, defines itself in a way that makes it recon-friendly in theory, it's not inherently reconstructionist, and in practice individual groves vary widely (some are outright hostile to those who prefer a more historically-rigorous approach); as well, its inclusion of other Indo-European hearth cultures may be a more diffuse approach than the would-be adherent of Iron Age Celtic deities would prefer.

Other Druidic groups, such as The Henge of Keltria, are both narrower in cultural scope and more historically rigorous - though the bottom line is that so little is known about the specific of what the ancient Druids were and did that any modern Druid group is at best historically speculative.

In general, I think binary either/or categories (Meso-Druidry or Neo-Druidry? Fraternal or Esoteric?) are generally inadequate; a wider range of possible categories is likely to be more useful.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

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