collapse

* Recent Posts

Re: "Christ Is King" by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:06:51 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 10:30:17 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Darkhawk
[Yesterday at 08:31:19 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Darkhawk
[Yesterday at 07:54:40 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Sefiru
[Yesterday at 07:44:49 pm]

Author Topic: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???  (Read 10895 times)

ovjanelle

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 25
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« on: June 18, 2015, 04:57:59 pm »
Should someone who follows the Wiccan rede fall more into the pro-life area of things due to the fetus being done harm? Is that a person to person thing? I'm feeling kind of conflicted and hearing various different opinions might help a bit.

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 04:59:05 pm by ovjanelle »

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5221
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1125
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2015, 06:40:25 pm »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176196

The Wiccan Rede, read correctly, is permissive: if it doesn't do harm, it is all right to do.

It cannot be applied to situations in which harm is being done.  Thus, someone who is concerned with the Rede will need to think through what they want to do and the consequences thereof rather than get a pat answer.  (I think that's a better way of running ethics anyway.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 06:41:41 pm by Darkhawk »
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2015, 06:51:02 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;176202
The Wiccan Rede, read correctly, is permissive: if it doesn't do harm, it is all right to do.

It cannot be applied to situations in which harm is being done.  Thus, someone who is concerned with the Rede will need to think through what they want to do and the consequences thereof rather than get a pat answer.  (I think that's a better way of running ethics anyway.)

 
This, so much.

The Wiccan Rede is best seen as a way of thinking about ethical questions as opposed to a prescriptive rule.

I'm staunchly pro-choice and I could argue in favour of that in a way that fits with even a reductionist literal reading of the Rede.  But when you seem to be dealing with an ethical issue that comes down to your own personal moral viewpoint, I'm not sure that would be helpful for you.
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

ovjanelle

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 25
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2015, 10:09:33 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;176202
The Wiccan Rede, read correctly, is permissive: if it doesn't do harm, it is all right to do.

It cannot be applied to situations in which harm is being done.  Thus, someone who is concerned with the Rede will need to think through what they want to do and the consequences thereof rather than get a pat answer.  (I think that's a better way of running ethics anyway.)

 I was aware that the rede was permissive. I was just curious as to how permissive people thought it would be. Personally I'm pro-choice. I don't feel like a fetus is an actual person....however...I still have this tickling feeling in the back of my mind like "What if" What if the deities view fetuses as people and they don't like us harming them? Then if you believe in reincarnation then we're being set back a lifetime or two before we reach perfection. And then if you don't believe in reincarnation then what the crap happens to a wiccan who fails to follow the rede?? I feel like it's all rather sticky and I was just feeling around. I've got a lot to learn and that's part of the reason I joined TC.

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2015, 10:35:50 pm »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176214
I was aware that the rede was permissive. I was just curious as to how permissive people thought it would be. Personally I'm pro-choice. I don't feel like a fetus is an actual person....however...I still have this tickling feeling in the back of my mind like "What if" What if the deities view fetuses as people and they don't like us harming them? Then if you believe in reincarnation then we're being set back a lifetime or two before we reach perfection. And then if you don't believe in reincarnation then what the crap happens to a wiccan who fails to follow the rede?? I feel like it's all rather sticky and I was just feeling around. I've got a lot to learn and that's part of the reason I joined TC.

 
There's also the parent to think of.  Is being pregnant harm to the mother?  Is becoming a parent harm?  It's not a simple question because it's not about ONE entity's rights.  At absolute minimum, it's about one person and one potential-person.

Any argument that does not take that into account is missing a large part of the question, IMO.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5221
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1125
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2015, 10:46:18 pm »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176214
I was aware that the rede was permissive. I was just curious as to how permissive people thought it would be.


No, this is still rooted in trying to apply something to a situation where it is not appropriate.

"If it does not do harm, it's okay" is the same structure of sentence as "If it is not raining, we could have a picnic."

Saying "How does this apply when it is raining?" can only have the answer "It doesn't.  It only talks about the situation when it is not raining."

You can have a picnic in the rain if you want to.  Or you can decide to cancel the picnic plans because it's raining.  Or you can get a big whacking umbrella and picnic under that.  Or you can do some other thing.  The stated advice does not apply to that situation.

Quote
And then if you don't believe in reincarnation then what the crap happens to a wiccan who fails to follow the rede??

 
There is absolutely nothing to follow.  "If it doesn't do harm, it's okay" requires no action whatsoever.  There is no code of behaviour required by "It's all right to do that thing that doesn't hurt anyone if you want to."
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

carillion

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2014
  • Posts: 664
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 11:54:35 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;176215

Any argument that does not take that into account is missing a large part of the question, IMO.


And there is the catch. Whatever sentiment one may choose to apply, one first has to decide for themselves at what point is an organic mass a *potential* sentient being.

I don't think it's an easy question and I also think just dismissing the question as not applicable or important is the answer.

If it were easy, there wouldn't be such debate about it.  I totally understand that 'tickling' feeling in the mind that can cause doubt in the most entrenched position.

I see people write about what their deities intend for them and how so many things that happened in their lives were 'meant' to be or arranged by their deities. Does one simply say " Yeah, but not in this category, my belief in the influence of my deity/ies in my life stops at this discussion".

I absent myself from the Wiccan part as I am not a lineaged Wiccan and have no idea how they approach this problem. But I think it's a question that reaches further than that particular religion/belief system.

It's just not a comfortable question and so apt to be dispensed with quickly or dismissed as irrelevant.

Micheál

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Belfast, N. Ireland
  • Posts: 604
  • Country: ie
  • Total likes: 48
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Alexandrian Wicca, Gaelic Polytheism
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2015, 12:48:44 am »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176214
I was aware that the rede was permissive. I was just curious as to how permissive people thought it would be. Personally I'm pro-choice. I don't feel like a fetus is an actual person....however...I still have this tickling feeling in the back of my mind like "What if" What if the deities view fetuses as people and they don't like us harming them? Then if you believe in reincarnation then we're being set back a lifetime or two before we reach perfection. And then if you don't believe in reincarnation then what the crap happens to a wiccan who fails to follow the rede?? I feel like it's all rather sticky and I was just feeling around. I've got a lot to learn and that's part of the reason I joined TC.

 The Rede literally means "advice." It's not an actual Wiccan Law, but a moral code open to personal interpretation, and a reminder one is responsible for their own actions. Therefore it can't  be applied generally to politics, and Wiccan praxis isn't really centred around belief, such as the Wiccan gods sitting around judging like that which is prevalent in Abrahamic religions for example.
Semper Fidelis

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2015, 08:12:56 am »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176214
I was aware that the rede was permissive. I was just curious as to how permissive people thought it would be. Personally I'm pro-choice. I don't feel like a fetus is an actual person....however...I still have this tickling feeling in the back of my mind like "What if" What if the deities view fetuses as people and they don't like us harming them?

What a deity or deities want you do do is a separate question from the advice the Wiccan Rede provides.

Side Note: The Wiccan Rede makes sense as moral advice (if it doesn't cause any harm, it is definitely morally okay), but it makes for silly moral law as a command to "Harm none!" (which is what it turns into if you take it as law) is literally impossible to obey. For example, every breath a living being takes kills micro-organisms so the only way to "harm none" is to never breathe, but never breathing harms oneself which also violates the a "harm none" moral law.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2015, 09:08:10 am »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176214
I was aware that the rede was permissive. I was just curious as to how permissive people thought it would be.

 
There are tiny organisms everywhere that our body kills. That's called having an immune system. I'd have to harm them just to stay alive, or else volunteer to die of sepsis. I opt not to die of sepsis.

Someone I know who's vegan had to start eating some animal protein after developing an allergy to all the vegan alternatives. She must participate in harm in order to survive, too. Otherwise, she would starve herself in order not to support harm to animals, and that is still harming herself.

Harm can be the inevitable and better option when a surgeon cauterizes a wound, or amputates a limb to prevent infection or decay from spreading to the rest of the body. It is still one body being harmed, burned, cut up...but would you rather bleed or rot to a far sooner death?

That doesn't mean that we go into public spaces, murdering and cannibalizing any and all passers-by because we killed so many single-celled life forms already and multi-cell life forms aren't different. It doesn't mean that we support animal husbandry for the reason that it gives animals miserable lives and painful, undignified deaths and humans aren't different. It doesn't mean that we get to burn and chop up living people because nobody has a perfect body.

It's impossible to do no harm in life. But we're not Reaver monsters, we do draw a line somewhere, and not arbitrarily. So, why would we on either side of abortion of a human zygote, embryo, or fetus?

Quote
I still have this tickling feeling in the back of my mind like "What if" What if the deities view fetuses as people and they don't like us harming them?


There's the Greek myth of how the avenging Furies transformed into The Kindly Ones after Orestes up and murdered his already-born and full-grown father. Those deities don't like family members killing family members, but they'll command it be done and allow it, but then condemn it, but then redeem the act.

Historically, it was even common practice to leave babies out to die of exposure to the elements. When infant mortality rates were far higher without modern medicine, parents wouldn't want to get too attached. A baby wasn't a person until it had a name. Were the Deities on board with that? Well...

Oedipus' parents didn't get as much punishment for doing that to him, as the whole city did from Oedipus surviving to have sex with his mother. So, it appears that some deities at least were a-okay with infanticide but not okay with incest? I'm personally less okay with infanticide than I am with consensual incest. Shall somebody up there strike me with lightning? Or will I only find out in the afterlife that I'd gotten it all wrong and all the pantheons are ever so cross with me?

Those aren't real questions, though, they're rhetorical. I'd already decided that I'll live by morals that actually do help to navigate the challenges of coexistence in this life, instead, because all that "What if?" has no answer that's more likely than another. What if the deities fully value lives that we mere mortals don't consider a complete unit of fully-realized life? What if the deities don't value human life at all, but are the deities of semi-sentient cacti that wonder why these annoying bipedal hairless apes keep butting in between Them and Their Chosen People? What if the deities want us to pick up grains of accidentally-spilled salt with our eyelashes as we make bunny ears with our hands and stomp on cymbals of a specific size and alloy, but some adversarial trickster made it out that we only need to throw a pinch of that salt over our left shoulder? What if? What if?

I doubt there is ever satisfaction to divine mystery, but if this remains a concern: What if the deities view fetuses as people and don't like us harming them?

Which ones (deities, that is), and why would They?

I think that we, as a society, just have a lot of intensely collective anxieties: sacredness of life, quality of life, sacredness of potential, idealism about life being good and all potential life should be realized to its fulfillment (or at least given the opportunity without the resources or means), sexual responsibility and irresponsibility...

We can project that onto deities, but just like the cauterization/amputation example I gave, I reason that if abortion is harm then it's less harm than there would be if that which would be aborted is carried to full term. Other people might see it as more harm because it's the elimination of a human life, rather than the mother "merely" ripping something from her V to her A and the quality of life that a newly-minted person would have in a world such as this, both likely to remain alive and make whatever they would of that.

But it's potential being protected by people in far worse positions to judge  (whether that's a corporeal body not currently impregnated and making the decision for that specific body or some deity) than the one living in the impregnated body; and for the sake of a potential, there would be an actual consequence of perpetuating societal oppression and depleting natural resources when the option to abort is denied across the globe.

I couldn't abide deities that simply expect me intuit that they expect the opposite.
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

beachglass

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Aug 2013
  • Posts: 239
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2015, 11:15:19 am »
Quote from: carillion;176219
I absent myself from the Wiccan part as I am not a lineaged Wiccan and have no idea how they approach this problem. But I think it's a question that reaches further than that particular religion/belief system.

It's just not a comfortable question and so apt to be dispensed with quickly or dismissed as irrelevant.

 
It's not that the question of abortion is irrelevant to ethics in a Wiccan context, but rather that the Rede is not an appropriate metric, as it only speaks to actions that do not cause harm.
"The further we go, and older we grow, the more we know, the less we show."  ~ Robert Smith

ovjanelle

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 25
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2015, 12:51:43 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;176216
No, this is still rooted in trying to apply something to a situation where it is not appropriate.

"If it does not do harm, it's okay" is the same structure of sentence as "If it is not raining, we could have a picnic."

Saying "How does this apply when it is raining?" can only have the answer "It doesn't.  It only talks about the situation when it is not raining."

You can have a picnic in the rain if you want to.  Or you can decide to cancel the picnic plans because it's raining.  Or you can get a big whacking umbrella and picnic under that.  Or you can do some other thing.  The stated advice does not apply to that situation.


 
There is absolutely nothing to follow.  "If it doesn't do harm, it's okay" requires no action whatsoever.  There is no code of behaviour required by "It's all right to do that thing that doesn't hurt anyone if you want to."

  I'm trying to process all of this. I'll admit my understanding of things aren't the greatest. I need to read a lot more. So basically what your saying is that my understanding of the rede is flawed in that it is not broad enough and I'm only focusing on little bits and pieces? Or something entirely different? You're writing came off as confusing to me. Sorry.

ovjanelle

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 25
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2015, 12:58:16 pm »
Quote from: Micheál;176224
The Rede literally means "advice." It's not an actual Wiccan Law, but a moral code open to personal interpretation, and a reminder one is responsible for their own actions. Therefore it can't  be applied generally to politics, and Wiccan praxis isn't really centred around belief, such as the Wiccan gods sitting around judging like that which is prevalent in Abrahamic religions for example.


Maybe my question should have been "What exactly is the rede" because it seems like my understanding of it was flawed. I'm sorry. I'm still very new to all of this. I'm here to learn and I guess this is one way of learning; screwing up and having people set you back on track. c:

ovjanelle

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Posts: 25
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2015, 01:01:12 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;176233
What a deity or deities want you do do is a separate question from the advice the Wiccan Rede provides.

Side Note: The Wiccan Rede makes sense as moral advice (if it doesn't cause any harm, it is definitely morally okay), but it makes for silly moral law as a command to "Harm none!" (which is what it turns into if you take it as law) is literally impossible to obey. For example, every breath a living being takes kills micro-organisms so the only way to "harm none" is to never breathe, but never breathing harms oneself which also violates the a "harm none" moral law.

 
You've got a point there. I missed that completely. Harming none is a stupid law. And since the wiccan rede isn't a law then that means that the Deities aren't necessarily going to do anything to me for not following the "law" but rather for whatever reason they themselves come up with. I think I'm getting it?

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3743
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1235
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Abortion and the Wiccan Rede???
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2015, 01:37:56 pm »
Quote from: ovjanelle;176247
I'm trying to process all of this. I'll admit my understanding of things aren't the greatest. I need to read a lot more. So basically what your saying is that my understanding of the rede is flawed in that it is not broad enough and I'm only focusing on little bits and pieces? Or something entirely different? You're writing came off as confusing to me. Sorry.

 
Let's see if a quick summary of common things people get confused about might help? Because you're right, it can be really confusing. (Many of these have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but I hope laying it out like this might help.)

1) It's advice, not a law.

A lot of people are used to religious giving them laws they must follow: things you're supposed to do and not do. These are common in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and many other religions. (As well as all those religions also having guidance for things that aren't hard and fast rules.)

Wicca doesn't work like that: the shared things in traditional initiatory Wicca are shared practices and ritual experiences. While there are certainly some common ethical guidelines, they're much more "Hey, think about this thing and the implications" than "Don't do that."

Beyond that, two lines of text, written in a way that is grammatically unclear to a lot of people, is not the most helpful thing ever. (As others in the conversation have said, the grammatical construction is very clearly "If it does not cause harm, then..." and does not discuss what to do if it causes harm. You need other parts of your ethical code to deal with that.)

2) Even if you have rules, people interpret them differently.

You can see this with the question of abortion (or euthanasia, or the death penalty, or dozens of other situations) : there are people of good will of a number of different individual religions who come down on different sides of a given issue, and have good reasons for doing so.

3) Wicca, as a religion, has no single identifiable head.

In traditional initiatory Wicca, all initiates are responsible for their own religious choices: there may be a high priestess or high priest in a coven setting, but those roles should be much more about facilitating certain kinds of ritual experiences and training, not telling people what to do.

(There are of course abusive people out there, and also just people who don't realise they're pushing a particular thing heavily. But that's true of all religious groups.)

Anyway, this means that you basically can't get a standard Wiccan teaching on anything: at best you have general agreement about shared practices like lineage and initiations and shared material, but individual covens or people may make different choices. This may have consequences for them, but it's more "I don't agree with you and I'm going over here and doing this" than "there is one Wiccan law."

(About the only firm things I can think of that are pretty close to absolutes are some requirements around confidentiality and privacy, and even those have a fair number of variations.)

4) Back to the Rede: it has a known history, it was written (and then expanded in various ways) by specific people, for specific reasons.

Those reasons were to provide advice (and a framework for that advice) that they felt was useful and meaningful, but they're still just people. Use it if you find it useful. Don't if you don't. If you do want to identify as Wiccan, understanding the history and some of the different approaches is helpful in having better conversations with people, but you are going to want other things in your ethical code as well.

I have an essay on my website that lays out more of the background of Wiccan and related ethics approaches, and it includes a link to much more background. (I really need to rewrite and expand this, but am still in the post-move and new job mode that means it won't happen soon.)

That link also describes what's much more of my own approach (it's the cast-iron cauldron metaphor): that our choices add up over time, and make some kinds of choices and opportunities more accessible to us, and others less so, and it's our job to think through the implications of our choices on a variety of levels.

6) There are some other really good approaches out there. The one I like best is Robin Wood's book "When, Why... If" which looks at a variety of ethical core concepts, gives some examepls, and has some questions to think about at the end of each chapter.

But honestly, for building an ethical code, there's a lot of other good resources out there that aren't explicitly Wiccan or Pagan, but still very useful.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
2856 Views
Last post July 11, 2011, 05:48:08 pm
by SunflowerP
12 Replies
2551 Views
Last post April 07, 2012, 10:21:11 pm
by LyricFox
17 Replies
3057 Views
Last post June 17, 2012, 07:52:17 am
by MoonCrone
3 Replies
1297 Views
Last post December 04, 2012, 08:54:20 am
by Gilbride
33 Replies
38133 Views
Last post December 10, 2018, 09:35:27 am
by Darkhawk

Beginner Area

Warning: You are currently in a Beginner Friendly area of the message board.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 238
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal