Author Topic: Vanatru, Rokkatru, and UPG: where to draw the line? (Read 12413 times)

makaros · « **on:** May 21, 2015, 07:58:49 pm »

Hey all, I've been doing further reading and I somehow stumbled upon Vanatru and Rokkatru. This is going to be kind of a lengthy post (I've looked through the SIG and didn't see a post like this so forgive me if this is repetitive)

First of all, I know that Raven Kaldera has a "reputation" and that rumors abound (most of which he has dismissed on his website) and I have a suspicion that a lot of the grief he gets is from being trans, bisexual, polyamorous, and part of the BSDM scene. His perspective is incredibly different from what most consider the norm (cisgendered, monogamous, kinky=fluffy handcuffs that don't close) and I see that somewhat reflected in his approach to the gods. He, and Northern Tradition pagans, and Rokkatruar have all embraced gods and beings that are generally off-limits to heathens who worship and honor the Aesir (and their Germanic/Anglo-Saxon equivalents). I bought the pdf for Jotunbok directly from the publisher's website and I was giving it a whirl. Lots of UPG that is supposedly corroborated by others and non-heathen stuff thrown in, naturally (as Kaldera himself states that the Northern Tradition is NOT Heathenry and doesn't claim it is), but what has most attracted my attention so far is the rationale given: the Aesir represent civilization, where the Jotuns/Rokkr represent wild and untamed elements/nature/natural forces, and the Vanir represent tamed nature/natural forces. Ergo, honoring Jotuns/Rokkr acted as a counterbalance to the success of civilization to where it has resulted in climate change, environmental degradation, and human suffering both physical and mental. This kind of made sense on the one hand, but on the other it struck me as resorting to the opposite "extreme".

Which led me to Vanatru. I bought Visions of Vanaheim (after reading through this https://serpentslabyrinth.wordpress.com/vanatru-faq/ ) and I've really enjoyed it thus far. Toward the start of the book it's very solid, the discussion of the deities, while peppered with (again, reportedly corroborated) UPG, seems very rooted. I feel like I certainly trend toward the Vanatru type at a basic level and some of what is written in the book about Freyja really resonated with me in my own experience.

And that's where I get hung up. Because the author of Visions starts describing the realm of Vanaheim as she and others have seen it, along with tribes there, the government, some mythos relayed from entities in Vanaheim, etc. And I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I take this seriously as true and valid experience and not just self-affirming delusions of grandeur or hallucination? And I don't mean that rudely, the same questions popped up in my head reading Kaldera's stuff. And what has really drawn me to ask this question is after watching a YouTube video of Galina Krasskova discussing her experience with Odin on her channel. It wasn't what she was saying, necessarily, it was how she said it. It was disturbing. Deeply, deeply fanatical and reflective of mental pathologies that I think this community too often dismisses.

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

It's hard for me to grapple with this. Religious communities of all types deal with this but I don't think the stereotypical Heathen reflex to reject it all is healthy, nor is the stereotypical neopagan reflex to accept all experiences as valid is either. How do you discern without rejecting everything outside the lore? Is personal relationship with deities even possible? And if so, how should we respond when an author who seemingly knows what they're talking about, such as in Visions of Vanaheim starts talking about how some entities in said realm are open to sex with humans?

AineLlewellyn · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2015, 12:16:35 am »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

It's hard for me to grapple with this. Religious communities of all types deal with this but I don't think the stereotypical Heathen reflex to reject it all is healthy, nor is the stereotypical neopagan reflex to accept all experiences as valid is either. How do you discern without rejecting everything outside the lore? Is personal relationship with deities even possible? And if so, how should we respond when an author who seemingly knows what they're talking about, such as in Visions of Vanaheim starts talking about how some entities in said realm are open to sex with humans?

Well...I will admit fully that I have a LOT of problems with the author of Visions of Vanaheim, far more than I do with Krasskova or Kaldera. So that might pop up in this response.

And of course, I'm the founder of a new polytheist religion with new gods (similar to how PSVL found their own new gods the Tetrad++, whose blog is here - except mine don't have historical connections, whereas the Tetrad++ group of gods is tied to Roman and other ancient deities). So, hello bias.

So the biggest aid that's come to me, in founding a new religion which has high tendencies toward, you know, grandeur and thinking of myself as Absolute Divine Speaker, has been to have people who don't buy that. Like, f'ex, atheist boyfriend. Also, friends not involved in the religion. Friends and acquaintances who I talk to who aren't invested in the religion and sometimes not invested in my feelings. And surrounding myself with people in this new religion who aren't as, well, mystically oriented as myself and can tell me, "That sounds off."

My opinion is you can't really...make someone not believe something. You can't make someone not believe their a Vanatru queen or whatever. It's a communal and an individual thing. If I was off on my own, tinkering away by my lonesome, I would totally fall into thinking I was some Chosen One. But after getting burned by people who DID believe that and wanted to drag me along, I made sure to surround myself with people who would help me keep my eyes forward. Also, just interacting with people on an equal level keeps me from going all "I'm the Most Special", because it's humbling and inspiring.

It's really hard for me to fall into thinking I'm Better or Religious Superior or whatever when I'm confronted pretty much every day with people who are better at, well, a lot of things than I am.

But those people I've surrounded myself with can't make me NOT believe something. Part of what I do to keep myself in check is to check in with myself. Does the 'upg' (I don't use that term for a few reasons, but it's useful within recon religions) make sense considering prior knowledge? Or is it totally out of left-field? Does it puff my ego up? Does it drag me suspiciously down? When did this revelation come? What has happening at the time, what was I feeling, who was I with? When the revelation concerns me directly, I usually ask myself if it makes sense for me.

Even though I've created a new religion, there are some posts which to judge myself by. Of course, I had to establish a lot of these myself! Lends to its own problems. It took a lot of trial and error and for people adventuring out onto their own, I think it's okay to give them some time to figure out where stuff falls. That's actually why I think it's important to discuss, in our varied communities, beliefs that fall into the 'out there' or 'really weird' category. One of the best things for culling problematic behavior (since religious grandeur seems to go unfortunately well with abuse...) is to have space to discuss ideas and get feedback. Cause then people have outsiders' perspectives and know they will be supported in thinking, not just believing.

Another thought I have is that we can't always know how much someone has vetted themselves. What might seem WAY TOO WEIRD to us might actually not be a destructive or damaging behavior. There are parts of the Pagan community that think it is weird and almost unacceptable to believe that gods really exist. So...hello complicated situations.

Addressing personal relationships with deities - I think this is based a lot on your ideas of how the gods work. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I only really get irritated when I see people telling others that they can't engage with a deity in a certain way because it's 'wrong'. I've been on the end of being told I take my gods too seriously and have too personal of relationships with them and also been told I'm not serious enough and am too distant, and whenever it happens it's obnoxious. If, through whatever ideas you've developed or been taught, personal relationship with deity doesn't make sense or isn't possible, I think that's okay! I think it's also okay for there to be other approaches. As long as abuse isn't being perpetuated I'm pretty live and let live.

Really quickly touching on 'sex with entities' - in some folklore that was a Thing that happened and in some modern traditions, mostly of fairy witchcraft or other types of witchcraft, sex with spirits is also a thing that happens. Sometimes a spirit or fairy spouse is taken, which can have either sexual implications and/or show developing spirituality or be related to 'sacred hermaphrodites'. Depends a lot on the tradition and background of the trad and teacher. I don't think we should dismiss it immediately. There's just factors to consider, one of which is the source. And how the statement is made. I'm actually really interested in discussing spirit sex and spousery but Nornoriel Lokason's discussion of it in 'Walking Between Worlds' (their spirit worker book) made me HATE IT momentarily. I find most of what he writes to be suspicious as heck.

Aiwelin · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2015, 02:20:59 am »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

Hey all, I've been doing further reading and I somehow stumbled upon Vanatru and Rokkatru. This is going to be kind of a lengthy post (I've looked through the SIG and didn't see a post like this so forgive me if this is repetitive)

First of all, I know that Raven Kaldera has a "reputation" and that rumors abound (most of which he has dismissed on his website) and I have a suspicion that a lot of the grief he gets is from being trans, bisexual, polyamorous, and part of the BSDM scene. His perspective is incredibly different from what most consider the norm (cisgendered, monogamous, kinky=fluffy handcuffs that don't close) and I see that somewhat reflected in his approach to the gods. He, and Northern Tradition pagans, and Rokkatruar have all embraced gods and beings that are generally off-limits to heathens who worship and honor the Aesir (and their Germanic/Anglo-Saxon equivalents). I bought the pdf for Jotunbok directly from the publisher's website and I was giving it a whirl. Lots of UPG that is supposedly corroborated by others and non-heathen stuff thrown in, naturally (as Kaldera himself states that the Northern Tradition is NOT Heathenry and doesn't claim it is), but what has most attracted my attention so far is the rationale given: the Aesir represent civilization, where the Jotuns/Rokkr represent wild and untamed elements/nature/natural forces, and the Vanir represent tamed nature/natural forces. Ergo, honoring Jotuns/Rokkr acted as a counterbalance to the success of civilization to where it has resulted in climate change, environmental degradation, and human suffering both physical and mental. This kind of made sense on the one hand, but on the other it struck me as resorting to the opposite "extreme".

Which led me to Vanatru. I bought Visions of Vanaheim (after reading through this https://serpentslabyrinth.wordpress.com/vanatru-faq/ ) and I've really enjoyed it thus far. Toward the start of the book it's very solid, the discussion of the deities, while peppered with (again, reportedly corroborated) UPG, seems very rooted. I feel like I certainly trend toward the Vanatru type at a basic level and some of what is written in the book about Freyja really resonated with me in my own experience.

And that's where I get hung up. Because the author of Visions starts describing the realm of Vanaheim as she and others have seen it, along with tribes there, the government, some mythos relayed from entities in Vanaheim, etc. And I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I take this seriously as true and valid experience and not just self-affirming delusions of grandeur or hallucination? And I don't mean that rudely, the same questions popped up in my head reading Kaldera's stuff. And what has really drawn me to ask this question is after watching a YouTube video of Galina Krasskova discussing her experience with Odin on her channel. It wasn't what she was saying, necessarily, it was how she said it. It was disturbing. Deeply, deeply fanatical and reflective of mental pathologies that I think this community too often dismisses.

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

It's hard for me to grapple with this. Religious communities of all types deal with this but I don't think the stereotypical Heathen reflex to reject it all is healthy, nor is the stereotypical neopagan reflex to accept all experiences as valid is either. How do you discern without rejecting everything outside the lore? Is personal relationship with deities even possible? And if so, how should we respond when an author who seemingly knows what they're talking about, such as in Visions of Vanaheim starts talking about how some entities in said realm are open to sex with humans?

Great questions! Thanks for bringing them up. For me personally, the first step is recognizing that UPG, even corroborated gnosis, is not valid for everyone. My UPG might spark ideas for others, open up doors for exploring, but I don't think anyone's going to take it as gospel and I won't do it with others' UPG either. As with all things about religion, IMO it's good to take everyone's claims, even your own, with a grain of salt.

Second, when looking at my own UPG or that of others, I ask if it's destructive. Does it involve problematic thinking, does it claim to be the one true way, will it isolate me from people or cause me to go against my values, etc. If so, I don't want to incorporate that into my religion.

Then I ask myself if it squares with the lore. I have a fair few strange things as UPG that make sense within the lore, and some that are just completely outside of it- and even a couple things that are contradictory to the lore. I accept these latter things because I experienced them, but I don't share them with anyone but very close friends, because it's unlikely to be helpful to others.

As for Visions of Vanaheim and its author; I prefer to learn about the spirit world from spirit workers that I know and trust in real life, as this makes it phenomenally easier to assess a person's character and tendency towards exaggeration or delusion. I don't know him, and I learned a bit from his earlier more academic work as Svartesol, but honestly his newer work seems a bit out there.

Ghost235 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2015, 12:14:17 pm »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

And that's where I get hung up. Because the author of Visions starts describing the realm of Vanaheim as she and others have seen it, along with tribes there, the government, some mythos relayed from entities in Vanaheim, etc. And I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I take this seriously as true and valid experience and not just self-affirming delusions of grandeur or hallucination? And I don't mean that rudely, the same questions popped up in my head reading Kaldera's stuff. And what has really drawn me to ask this question is after watching a YouTube video of Galina Krasskova discussing her experience with Odin on her channel. It wasn't what she was saying, necessarily, it was how she said it. It was disturbing. Deeply, deeply fanatical and reflective of mental pathologies that I think this community too often dismisses.

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

It's hard for me to grapple with this. Religious communities of all types deal with this but I don't think the stereotypical Heathen reflex to reject it all is healthy, nor is the stereotypical neopagan reflex to accept all experiences as valid is either. How do you discern without rejecting everything outside the lore? Is personal relationship with deities even possible? And if so, how should we respond when an author who seemingly knows what they're talking about, such as in Visions of Vanaheim starts talking about how some entities in said realm are open to sex with humans?

To start, here are my biases. I think that, to some extent, how we perceive all of reality could be seen as UPG. We take external reality and filter it through our biases, thoughts, dreams, etc. This gives us our perceptions of reality.

With that said, pretty much any UPG is going to have some aspects of the relator in them. The trick isn't to find "pure UPG" as much as find UPG with a low amount of bias and/or bias that you can easily factor out.

Finding out the bias involved means that you need to understand the relator, the better you get them the more of their bias you will be able to uncover and remove.

Another thing to ask yourself is how the UPG relates to your life. For example, does Vanaheim having a socialist democracy or more of a republic impact your life outside of an interesting thing to ponder?

Lastly, "cui bono"? Meaning, who benefits? I would also add, "how much"? Do the people who telling you about this UPG have some sort of agenda or church? Are they asking for money, sex, or something else?

makaros · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2015, 04:56:45 pm »

Quote from: ainellewellyn;175257

Well...I will admit fully that I have a LOT of problems with the author of Visions of Vanaheim, far more than I do with Krasskova or Kaldera. So that might pop up in this response.

Thanks for the response! Just curious - what are those issues if you don't mind me asking? The co-author (Nicthaniel Hrafson? I don't have the book on me and I can't quite recall

) seems out there as well.

Quote from: ainellewellyn

Even though I've created a new religion, there are some posts which to judge myself by. Of course, I had to establish a lot of these myself! Lends to its own problems. It took a lot of trial and error and for people adventuring out onto their own, I think it's okay to give them some time to figure out where stuff falls. That's actually why I think it's important to discuss, in our varied communities, beliefs that fall into the 'out there' or 'really weird' category. One of the best things for culling problematic behavior (since religious grandeur seems to go unfortunately well with abuse...) is to have space to discuss ideas and get feedback. Cause then people have outsiders' perspectives and know they will be supported in thinking, not just believing.

That actually seems pretty healthy in addition to surrounding yourself with skeptics to keep yourself grounded. Makes sense to me!

Quote from: ainellewellyn

Addressing personal relationships with deities - I think this is based a lot on your ideas of how the gods work. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.

You know, I started thinking after reading the responses and I wonder if my doubt of UPG or shared gnosis is really stemming from this as much as concern about whether it's "real". I am having a bit of a crisis at the moment, and have been for almost a year now unfortunately. I just don't know what I believe anymore, and it's incredibly disheartening. When I read people having such vivid experiences, my most immediate reaction is how? I of course try to set that aside, and I feel like I brought up important points, but at its core my problems might be based more on projecting my own feelings of confusion onto the valid experiences of others. Hmm.

Quote from: ainellewellyn

Really quickly touching on 'sex with entities' - in some folklore that was a Thing that happened and in some modern traditions, mostly of fairy witchcraft or other types of witchcraft, sex with spirits is also a thing that happens.

Makes sense. This book threw me off though because elf sex was "highly recommended" and I just could not even. It just seemed to cheapen the rest of it for me, I don't know why.

---

Quote from: Aiwelin

Great questions! Thanks for bringing them up. For me personally, the first step is recognizing that UPG, even corroborated gnosis, is not valid for everyone. My UPG might spark ideas for others, open up doors for exploring, but I don't think anyone's going to take it as gospel and I won't do it with others' UPG either. As with all things about religion, IMO it's good to take everyone's claims, even your own, with a grain of salt...

That's actually great advice!

And for the rest of your post, having a system that checks your own UPG as well as that of others seems helpful. And this book got more "out there" toward the end. Started strong and solid and then just as I finished it I was left wondering what happened. The personal connection could definitely solve a lot of the questions regarding validity and possible mental illness interfering with the experience. Too bad I don't know any spirit workers near me.

Quote from: Ghost235

Another thing to ask yourself is how the UPG relates to your life. For example, does Vanaheim having a socialist democracy or more of a republic impact your life outside of an interesting thing to ponder?

See, and that's the thing! There was talk of this book when journeying astrally to Vanaheim to stop by the State Department? and get a visitors pass or something along those lines. I was like, wait, what? Why would entities on a different plane of existence have a society, culture, or even government anything like ours? I guess you could chalk it up to them presenting their way of life to the journeyer in a way that could be understood (which would make sense). But you could just as easily dismiss it.

I guess we might just have to be okay with a little mystery, not that I haven't been okay with it. Just when I'm confronted with so much clarity on the part of an author on something so ephemeral as the Divine and otherworldly spirits, their lack of doubt makes me doubt. Which helps me understand my own perspective a little more intimately than I did before I posted this. Yay!

AineLlewellyn · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2015, 06:48:46 pm »

Quote from: makaroð;175287

Thanks for the response! Just curious - what are those issues if you don't mind me asking? The co-author (Nicthaniel Hrafson? I don't have the book on me and I can't quite recall ) seems out there as well.
...
Makes sense. This book threw me off though because elf sex was "highly recommended" and I just could not even. It just seemed to cheapen the rest of it for me, I don't know why.

I think the author doesn't admit their own biases and have found the way they behave towards others to be troubling - mostly in the comments of their blog. They also regularly implode and run away from whatever community they are part of and then resurface under a new name, which is a huge red flag for me.

As for the sex being 'high recommended'...ick. That comes off as skeevy and very disrespectful to the spirits, imo. It also feels like a bit of oversharing, which is another huge problem I have with that author. IDK what version of the book you have, but I'm assuming the newer version of Visions. From my understanding, the newer version had a lot more UPG. I don't know if Nicanthiel helped write the new version and don't know much about them.

I find most of their writing suspect in content - either ripped off from other people (such as their demonic content and knowledge) or just strange. Too concrete and too...well, too structured when it concerns very subjective and wibbly wobbly stuff. I enjoy mixing my own perceptions with the otherworld and seeing what comes out, but I remind myself that those are just that - my perceptions. What I see as a glorious beauteous spirit might be horrific to another.

Juniperberry · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2015, 04:26:53 pm »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

Hey all, I've been doing further reading and I somehow stumbled upon Vanatru and Rokkatru. This is going to be kind of a lengthy post (I've looked through the SIG and didn't see a post like this so forgive me if this is repetitive)

First of all, I know that Raven Kaldera has a "reputation" and that rumors abound (most of which he has dismissed on his website) and I have a suspicion that a lot of the grief he gets is from being trans, bisexual, polyamorous, and part of the BSDM scene. His perspective is incredibly different from what most consider the norm (cisgendered, monogamous, kinky=fluffy handcuffs that don't close) and I see that somewhat reflected in his approach to the gods. He, and Northern Tradition pagans, and Rokkatruar have all embraced gods and beings that are generally off-limits to heathens who worship and honor the Aesir (and their Germanic/Anglo-Saxon equivalents). I bought the pdf for Jotunbok directly from the publisher's website and I was giving it a whirl. Lots of UPG that is supposedly corroborated by others and non-heathen stuff thrown in, naturally (as Kaldera himself states that the Northern Tradition is NOT Heathenry and doesn't claim it is), but what has most attracted my attention so far is the rationale given: the Aesir represent civilization, where the Jotuns/Rokkr represent wild and untamed elements/nature/natural forces, and the Vanir represent tamed nature/natural forces. Ergo, honoring Jotuns/Rokkr acted as a counterbalance to the success of civilization to where it has resulted in climate change, environmental degradation, and human suffering both physical and mental. This kind of made sense on the one hand, but on the other it struck me as resorting to the opposite "extreme".

It's a fairly common interpretation, but I think in some ways it misses the point of the dynamic. If you look at the lore, it's the jotuns who actually build civilization for the gods. I'm more continental heathen, but even there, there's some Giant Master Builder myths. (Also worth noting, the wilderness/civilization dichotomy is better expressed in the male and not-male dynamic, rather than in the jotun and gods.) Jotuns are more like a state of being that just Is, while the Aesir are the ones who move what Is into something More. Neither could reach any meaningful potential without the other. Likewise, without will or inspiration, we humans would just be lumps of organic meat rotting away. Without body, we would just be impotent thought. Middle earth, Midgard, is the center where both meet to realize potential.

That center of realized potential is, in itself, a sacred place. That's vitally important in understanding the heathen worldview, because it's different then the religious idea that there is some heavenly paradise to aspire to. It's a belief that this world is where all things spiritual and physical meet, and that we are in the midst of an actual relationship with it all just by being alive within it. There are Mystery religions that reveal nature's true reality, but within heathenry, this is nature's true reality, and we take part in shaping it's potential and in being expressions of it's potential. There are mysterious things within this world, sure, but this isn't an illusion, or a sorry substitute for the real thing, or a test. It is simply sacred life.

Quote

Which led me to Vanatru. I bought Visions of Vanaheim (after reading through this https://serpentslabyrinth.wordpress.com/vanatru-faq/ ) and I've really enjoyed it thus far. Toward the start of the book it's very solid, the discussion of the deities, while peppered with (again, reportedly corroborated) UPG, seems very rooted. I feel like I certainly trend toward the Vanatru type at a basic level and some of what is written in the book about Freyja really resonated with me in my own experience.

And that's where I get hung up. Because the author of Visions starts describing the realm of Vanaheim as she and others have seen it, along with tribes there, the government, some mythos relayed from entities in Vanaheim, etc. And I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I take this seriously as true and valid experience and not just self-affirming delusions of grandeur or hallucination? And I don't mean that rudely, the same questions popped up in my head reading Kaldera's stuff. And what has really drawn me to ask this question is after watching a YouTube video of Galina Krasskova discussing her experience with Odin on her channel. It wasn't what she was saying, necessarily, it was how she said it. It was disturbing. Deeply, deeply fanatical and reflective of mental pathologies that I think this community too often dismisses.

I think it's fine that people have had "visions of Vanaheim", but that's looking outside of center. The realm of Vanaheim isn't the true nature of things because the true nature of things, realizing their best potential in harmony with all other things, is here. If some people want to exist, spiritually, outside of Midgard, then that's a perfectly valid, personal choice. I do think it makes one a little 'mad' because it is outside of nature's reality. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but that it isn't where all things meet and make some kind of harmonious, balanced sense. The outside of that is inbalanced. And sometimes we need those "inbalanced" people to show us the outside of center so we can understand Midgard better.

Quote

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

I think we can accept that there is UPG that is off-center, inbalanced, and 'mad' simply because the edges of reality are off-center and inbalanced and maddening. But existing spiritually in those places is not meant for everyone. Midgard, earth, this human reality is the sacred center, and it would fall apart, nothing would reach its natural potential, if we all migrated to the edges.

The edge shouldn't be what everyone is trying to reach, most should be trying to reach true center: ar ok frith, which is something along the lines of "good harvests, plenty of fish, and peace." When you have that good life, you have reached a place where all things meet living to the best of their potential. The gods are happy, the people are happy, the world is happy.

And it's something all things have to accomplish together, to coexist together. So there will be UPG, and
woo, and worship, and a real relationship. Depending on where you want to go, you align that with the compass of right wyrd, and right frith.

That's my thoughts on it anyhow. :p

Tom · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2015, 06:48:04 pm »

Quote from: Juniperberry;175314

It's a fairly common interpretation, but I think in some ways it misses the point of the dynamic. If you look at the lore, it's the jotuns who actually build civilization for the gods. I'm more continental heathen, but even there, there's some Giant Master Builder myths. (Also worth noting, the wilderness/civilization dichotomy is better expressed in the male and not-male dynamic, rather than in the jotun and gods.) Jotuns are more like a state of being that just Is, while the Aesir are the ones who move what Is into something More. Neither could reach any meaningful potential without the other. Likewise, without will or inspiration, we humans would just be lumps of organic meat rotting away. Without body, we would just be impotent thought. Middle earth, Midgard, is the center where both meet to realize potential.

This sounds very Taoist. Also reminds me of, referring farther back into Norse cosmology, of the interaction of Niflheim and Muspelliheim and how things were created against the void or what we call Ginnungagap.

Though I kinda have a hard time seeing Jotnar as beings that just /are/ personally considering how powerful and dynamic forces of nature are and how we can't simply harness them. Jotnar are representative of the very forces that have shaped our planet far more than humans could've back in the middle ages before we had dynamite and other explosives. Nature may mostly work slower than man, but erosion is why we have the world we have now.

Quote from: Juniperberry;175314

That center of realized potential is, in itself, a sacred place. That's vitally important in understanding the heathen worldview, because it's different then the religious idea that there is some heavenly paradise to aspire to. It's a belief that this world is where all things spiritual and physical meet, and that we are in the midst of an actual relationship with it all just by being alive within it. There are Mystery religions that reveal nature's true reality, but within heathenry, this is nature's true reality, and we take part in shaping it's potential and in being expressions of it's potential. There are mysterious things within this world, sure, but this isn't an illusion, or a sorry substitute for the real thing, or a test. It is simply sacred life.

So are you saying that there is no room for mystery cults underneath the Heathen umbrella? And remember that there are multiple paths that can rightly call themselves Heathen before painting them as all being focused on the same thing.

Quote from: Juniperberry;175314

I think it's fine that people have had "visions of Vanaheim", but that's looking outside of center. The realm of Vanaheim isn't the true nature of things because the true nature of things, realizing their best potential in harmony with all other things, is here. If some people want to exist, spiritually, outside of Midgard, then that's a perfectly valid, personal choice. I do think it makes one a little 'mad' because it is outside of nature's reality. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but that it isn't where all things meet and make some kind of harmonious, balanced sense. The outside of that is inbalanced. And sometimes we need those "inbalanced" people to show us the outside of center so we can understand Midgard better.

You realize that using the word imbalanced to describe people who have experiences outside the norm is actually implying a lot of unpleasant things about these people? As it's been used to describe people who are seen as unfit for society?

And how can you definite this world as being reality anyways? There are those out there who would rather prescribe to Plato's Allegory of the Cave who believe that this world is an imperfect reflection of real reality out there. And I find it very difficult to consider this world to be perfect as it's imperfections are a feature, not a bug. The world is in a constant state of flux as true balance is an impossibility.

Quote from: Juniperberry;175314

I think we can accept that there is UPG that is off-center, inbalanced, and 'mad' simply because the edges of reality are off-center and inbalanced and maddening. But existing spiritually in those places is not meant for everyone. Midgard, earth, this human reality is the sacred center, and it would fall apart, nothing would reach its natural potential, if we all migrated to the edges.

The edge shouldn't be what everyone is trying to reach, most should be trying to reach true center: ar ok frith, which is something along the lines of "good harvests, plenty of fish, and peace." When you have that good life, you have reached a place where all things meet living to the best of their potential. The gods are happy, the people are happy, the world is happy.

And it's something all things have to accomplish together, to coexist together. So there will be UPG, and
woo, and worship, and a real relationship. Depending on where you want to go, you align that with the compass of right wyrd, and right frith.

Thank you btw, by your fascinating bit of UPG. It's a rather interesting counterpoint to the more Jotnar and Vanic viewpoints that have been discussed in this thread so far. You seem to be advocating for a more Midgard centric view of the Heathen cosmology correct?

Juniperberry · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2015, 09:47:34 pm »

Quote from: Tom;175318

This sounds very Taoist. Also reminds me of, referring farther back into Norse cosmology, of the interaction of Niflheim and Muspelliheim and how things were created against the void or what we call Ginnungagap.

Though I kinda have a hard time seeing Jotnar as beings that just /are/ personally considering how powerful and dynamic forces of nature are and how we can't simply harness them. Jotnar are representative of the very forces that have shaped our planet far more than humans could've back in the middle ages before we had dynamite and other explosives. Nature may mostly work slower than man, but erosion is why we have the world we have now.

By saying that the Jotnur just Are, I mean that they cannot become more on their own. The snow doesn't form itself into a snowman, wind doesn't create the windmill. They can't become anything but what they are.

Quote

So are you saying that there is no room for mystery cults underneath the Heathen umbrella? And remember that there are multiple paths that can rightly call themselves Heathen before painting them as all being focused on the same thing.

Not at all. There were and are ecstasy and mystery cults that exist/ed in heathenry. In my original post I think I even said that there are mysteries found within heathenry? But to be honest, I find the modern context of Mystery religions (capital M) problematic in much the same way that "shaman" is. Shaman/Mysteries are not universally understood by all cultures and peoples. And simply assuming that they work for any and every one is...offensive? As far as I can tell, historical heathenry was not--as a general majority--a Mystery religion, and when we are discussing how UPG is accepted and deciphered in the SIG, I think it's important to note that.

Quote

You realize that using the word imbalanced to describe people who have experiences outside the norm is actually implying a lot of unpleasant things about these people? As it's been used to describe people who are seen as unfit for society?

Which is exactly why I used it. The OP skimmed across the idea that Galina et al may be suffering from psychiatric disorders that render their UPG value-less. If we highlight the modern ideas of chemical imbalances (thanx for the correction) in the brain against the (very acceptable pagan) idea of the mad spirit worker, we can see that there is a spiritual power in religious experiences that might otherwise be deemed as delusional. Where being imbalanced isn't a defect, but a sense of being that bridges a gap between this reality and other worlds.

Quote

And how can you definite this world as being reality anyways? There are those out there who would rather prescribe to Plato's Allegory of the Cave who believe that this world is an imperfect reflection of real reality out there. And I find it very difficult to consider this world to be perfect as it's imperfections are a feature, not a bug. The world is in a constant state of flux as true balance is an impossibility.

How can Christians say there is a heaven and live accordingly? It's a belief, a way of viewing the world. How do Kemetics "know" someone is going to weigh their hearts against a feather (I think that's right) and live accordingly to that belief? How can one say that Plato's Allegory has definitive value?

Anyway, in no way did I say that this is the *only* reality, but this is the center where all known heathen realities (the nine worlds) converge. There are shadows on the wall, but those shadows are still touching this reality's cave. In a world-accepting religion, you don't reject the reality of the wall for the sake of the shadows, you take them together as a valid and meaningful whole.

Quote

Thank you btw, by your fascinating bit of UPG.

UPG? Basing a belief system/analysis off of researched literature doesn't equal UPG. If there is something that seems like unverified gnosis in my comments, point them out to me and I'll provide you with my sources.

Quote

It's a rather interesting counterpoint to the more Jotnar and Vanic viewpoints that have been discussed in this thread so far. You seem to be advocating for a more Midgard centric view of the Heathen cosmology correct?

I don't think I'm advocating anything that isn't basic knowledge? Midgard is Middle Earth. The *middle* of something is generally the *center*. It's in the center of the World Tree. It is three-dimensional, smack dab in the middle of everything. You're essentially asking me if the centre garden is the central point in heathen cosmology. Which, yes.

Hyacinth Belle · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2015, 09:05:43 am »

Very interesting thread!

Quote from: Juniperberry;175314

Jotuns are more like a state of being that just Is, while the Aesir are the ones who move what Is into something More. Neither could reach any meaningful potential without the other. Likewise, without will or inspiration, we humans would just be lumps of organic meat rotting away. Without body, we would just be impotent thought. Middle earth, Midgard, is the center where both meet to realize potential.

That center of realized potential is, in itself, a sacred place. That's vitally important in understanding the heathen worldview, because it's different then the religious idea that there is some heavenly paradise to aspire to. It's a belief that this world is where all things spiritual and physical meet, and that we are in the midst of an actual relationship with it all just by being alive within it. There are Mystery religions that reveal nature's true reality, but within heathenry, this is nature's true reality, and we take part in shaping it's potential and in being expressions of it's potential. There are mysterious things within this world, sure, but this isn't an illusion, or a sorry substitute for the real thing, or a test. It is simply sacred life.

Yes, yes, yes. Love your way with words here. This idea is one of the things that makes my heart full and one of the reasons I know I'm following the path I'm supposed to be.

Quote from: Tom;175318

This sounds very Taoist.

Haha! Yes, indeed.

(See my specs, left.)

Juniperberry · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2015, 12:49:26 pm »

Quote from: Tom;175318

This sounds very Taoist.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But the idea of balance and harmony are original to the heathen worldview, too. Those actual words come across a little granola and new-agey, but I tend to use them over the Germanic word heill. (Just...Heil Hitler and all that. Not a good look.)

As I mentioned earlier, the idea of Germanic "salvation" (ar ok frith), pre-conversion, was plenty of fish, good harvests, inner security, lack of crime (Simek, DONM). Heill was a word for the concept of wholeness, correctness, health and vitality. And this idea of Heill, as a world-accepting concept, was one of the hardest to convert into a Christian world-rejecting concept (Russell, Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity).

Prior to Christianity, Heill was the idea that the world should run as a well-oiled machine, with us just as responsible for maintaining that wholeness (through deeds, tradition, and wyrd) as the animals, fish, gods, and dead were. We were all equal members of a community, and when that community was whole, there was [/i]ar ok frith[/i]. After conversion, the concept of heill was internal. That the most important wholeness, health and vitality was within one's self, in one's relationship with God, and one's rejection and correction of sin.

Holdasown · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2015, 10:42:16 am »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

Hey all, I've been doing further reading and I somehow stumbled upon Vanatru and Rokkatru. This is going to be kind of a lengthy post (I've looked through the SIG and didn't see a post like this so forgive me if this is repetitive)

First of all, I know that Raven Kaldera has a "reputation" and that rumors abound (most of which he has dismissed on his website) and I have a suspicion that a lot of the grief he gets is from being trans, bisexual, polyamorous, and part of the BSDM scene. His perspective is incredibly different from what most consider the norm (cisgendered, monogamous, kinky=fluffy handcuffs that don't close) and I see that somewhat reflected in his approach to the gods. He, and Northern Tradition pagans, and Rokkatruar have all embraced gods and beings that are generally off-limits to heathens who worship and honor the Aesir (and their Germanic/Anglo-Saxon equivalents). I bought the pdf for Jotunbok directly from the publisher's website and I was giving it a whirl. Lots of UPG that is supposedly corroborated by others and non-heathen stuff thrown in, naturally (as Kaldera himself states that the Northern Tradition is NOT Heathenry and doesn't claim it is), but what has most attracted my attention so far is the rationale given: the Aesir represent civilization, where the Jotuns/Rokkr represent wild and untamed elements/nature/natural forces, and the Vanir represent tamed nature/natural forces. Ergo, honoring Jotuns/Rokkr acted as a counterbalance to the success of civilization to where it has resulted in climate change, environmental degradation, and human suffering both physical and mental. This kind of made sense on the one hand, but on the other it struck me as resorting to the opposite "extreme".

Which led me to Vanatru. I bought Visions of Vanaheim (after reading through this https://serpentslabyrinth.wordpress.com/vanatru-faq/ ) and I've really enjoyed it thus far. Toward the start of the book it's very solid, the discussion of the deities, while peppered with (again, reportedly corroborated) UPG, seems very rooted. I feel like I certainly trend toward the Vanatru type at a basic level and some of what is written in the book about Freyja really resonated with me in my own experience.

And that's where I get hung up. Because the author of Visions starts describing the realm of Vanaheim as she and others have seen it, along with tribes there, the government, some mythos relayed from entities in Vanaheim, etc. And I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I take this seriously as true and valid experience and not just self-affirming delusions of grandeur or hallucination? And I don't mean that rudely, the same questions popped up in my head reading Kaldera's stuff. And what has really drawn me to ask this question is after watching a YouTube video of Galina Krasskova discussing her experience with Odin on her channel. It wasn't what she was saying, necessarily, it was how she said it. It was disturbing. Deeply, deeply fanatical and reflective of mental pathologies that I think this community too often dismisses.

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

It's hard for me to grapple with this. Religious communities of all types deal with this but I don't think the stereotypical Heathen reflex to reject it all is healthy, nor is the stereotypical neopagan reflex to accept all experiences as valid is either. How do you discern without rejecting everything outside the lore? Is personal relationship with deities even possible? And if so, how should we respond when an author who seemingly knows what they're talking about, such as in Visions of Vanaheim starts talking about how some entities in said realm are open to sex with humans?

UPG is what it is. It comes down to deciding how much you trust the person giving the information. I tend to try and read material this is from a variety of Heathen sources and groups. Thinks start to repeat or pop up. Also always good to learn the actual written lore as a base.

Tanbrid · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2015, 07:34:26 pm »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

Hey all, I've been doing further reading and I somehow stumbled upon Vanatru and Rokkatru. This is going to be kind of a lengthy post (I've looked through the SIG and didn't see a post like this so forgive me if this is repetitive)

Jotuns/Rokkr acted as a counterbalance to the success of civilization to where it has resulted in climate change, environmental degradation, and human suffering both physical and mental. This kind of made sense on the one hand, but on the other it struck me as resorting to the opposite "extreme".

Which led me to Vanatru. I bought Visions of Vanaheim (after reading through this https://serpentslabyrinth.wordpress.com/vanatru-faq/ ) and I've really enjoyed it thus far. Toward the start of the book it's very solid, the discussion of the deities, while peppered with (again, reportedly corroborated) UPG, seems very rooted. I feel like I certainly trend toward the Vanatru type at a basic level and some of what is written in the book about Freyja really resonated with me in my own experience.

And that's where I get hung up. Because the author of Visions starts describing the realm of Vanaheim as she and others have seen it, along with tribes there, the government, some mythos relayed from entities in Vanaheim, etc. And I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I take this seriously as true and valid experience and not just self-affirming delusions of grandeur or hallucination?

Forgive me moderators, my brain can't really deal with complex quote clippy thingies. I hate the term UPG, so will use "ideas/inspiration" or something like it instead. I'm not surprised this didn't come up before, this SIG used to be filled with the AsatruLore folks, maybe some of them have left, as it seems less grumpy here now...

I have read V of V- my review is here-
https://paganleft.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/visions-of-vanaheim-book-review/

I thought there was good historical info on the Vanic (& speculated Vanic deities) in there, and interesting personal insights to consider, the journeying to Vanaheim stuff I just sort of see as Vanic fanfiction. The next couple books he's writing are short story collections...including ones of an erotic nature.

I don't believe Nicanthiel is the co-author (maybe of the original with Svartesol) but he (correct me if I get pronouns wrong) has written Sea Sky Soil: An Intro to Waincraft, which is an off-shoot of Vanatru and they share ideas about the Tribes of Vanaheim.
https://adventuresinvanaheim.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/review-sea-sky-soil-an-introduction-to-waincraft/

I only know about one disappearance/implosion/identity change and that was Svartesol to Nornoriel Lokason. He is open about having various mental health issues (not sure of other labels besides PTSD) I think you can have a mental illness while keeping it check while also having ecstatic visionary experiences...but it is a very delicate balance. I prefer to keep in my own head for such reasons, myself.

I think some of the extreme "woo" corners of Northern Paganism/Heathenry are a direct result of other attitudes being taken to an extreme. When people with different ideas mix together, things will naturally to some degree balance out, though there will always be some outliers. Galina & Raven both have written a lot of nice devotional poetry & rituals for many lesser known deities, and I greatly appreciate that. I enjoy that and just shrug off more extreme stuff. Though I'm not always sure how Unitarianism fits with polytheism, I do find my UU values help me judge where my boundaries should lie in Heathenry.

With judging people's personal spiritual ideas, I pretty much have to go with- does this contradict info we have? Does this "fill in the blanks" in a way that's useful?

I'm not sure what to think of the sex with spirits thing, but I do think there is a lot of potential for abuse of power both for the spirit/deity, and the human in making claims about their relationship, speaking for a god, etc. I just get what I feel are subtle "nudges" from my gods, and I feel that's good enough for me!

bobthesane · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2015, 03:00:11 pm »

Quote from: Tanbrid;176906

Forgive me moderators, my brain can't really deal with complex quote clippy thingies. I hate the term UPG, so will use "ideas/inspiration" or something like it instead. I'm not surprised this didn't come up before, this SIG used to be filled with the AsatruLore folks, maybe some of them have left, as it seems less grumpy here now...

Most of us are still here. We are just sick and tired of having the same goram fight over, and over, and over again.

Frankly, it's just not worth my time, not when I could be devoting my energies and time to people who actually matter to me rather than a bunch of people on the Internet I will likely never meet, and certainly will never be in a gift-cycle with. That is why I never piped up in this thread.

But make no mistake, we are still here, and we will respond to personal, erm, 'indictments' seems too harsh a word, but you get my drift.

Haggis · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2015, 11:18:22 pm »

Quote from: makaroð;175247

So where do we draw the line in Heathenry and in general? There has to be a responsible way to deal with UPG and even corroborated UPG. I have had a few experiences with what I thought were deities, but of course the question (even in the mention of my experience with Freyja above) is whether or not that was a self-affirming, or punishing in the case of negative experiences, delusion. I work day in and day out reading medical records and sometimes I get cases where the person involved is dealing with hyperreligiosity and delusions of grandeur. The lines are incredibly blurry.

I think throwing out all UPG is more harmful. Really wasn't the lore just UPG that spread? I think each person needs to draw their own line, when I read Raven's work and Krasskova's I found myself rolling my eyes, and I was very aware they were trying to sell me their products. I personally believe that if we remove all upg then we will always be behind. There is no way the gods have just been sitting around since the eddas were written. Have the gods figured out how to deal with Surtr? Are they gonna steal his sword? Are they going to trick a dwarf unto making some snake proof armor for Thor? These are questions that we would have to rely on UPG for. Allowing a few greedy book pushers, and the mentally ill to share their perspectives seems like a small price to pay imo.

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