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Author Topic: Websites: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?  (Read 12617 times)

Jaxxie

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Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« on: April 26, 2015, 02:40:00 am »
Has anyone else noticed a massive slowing down of traffic on Pagan-related websites? I really miss Bewitching Ways and the old Covenspace. When my husband and I met on WitchVox in 2004 the sheer volume and quick-pace of resources being added was nearly overwhelming. There were pages upon pages of Pagan personal ads for my area alone. There were several metaphysical shops in my area. Now I have one. Covenspace was a wonderful alternative to Facebook and I made a lot of great friends and connections there. Paganspace is a little more difficult to navigate and I'm having trouble making connections as easily. Even the "New Age/Occult" section of my local bookstores has shrunk dramatically over the past decade. Is this a regional observation, or did the Craft reach its zenith in the 90s and early 2000s and is waning, or have we backed away from the public eye and become more guarded?

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 11:24:34 am by RandallS »

Micheál

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2015, 05:16:30 am »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Has anyone else noticed a massive slowing down of traffic on Pagan-related websites? I really miss Bewitching Ways and the old Covenspace. When my husband and I met on WitchVox in 2004 the sheer volume and quick-pace of resources being added was nearly overwhelming. There were pages upon pages of Pagan personal ads for my area alone. There were several metaphysical shops in my area. Now I have one. Covenspace was a wonderful alternative to Facebook and I made a lot of great friends and connections there. Paganspace is a little more difficult to navigate and I'm having trouble making connections as easily. Even the "New Age/Occult" section of my local bookstores has shrunk dramatically over the past decade. Is this a regional observation, or did the Craft reach its zenith in the 90s and early 2000s and is waning, or have we backed away from the public eye and become more guarded?

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

The Recession might have something to do with the shops.  I've seen many open then shortly clkse resorting to market stalls, or online. Bookstores might be similar with Amazon and all, but I hear what you say about the sites. In general I've seen forums in general diminish. A lot of them have resorted to the likes of Facebook groups, and with that you also get people that are more guarded on networks like that and the Google age in general where you're exposed to everybody and everything.
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Nerys53

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2015, 05:34:04 am »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Has anyone else noticed a massive slowing down of traffic on Pagan-related websites? I really miss Bewitching Ways and the old Covenspace. When my husband and I met on WitchVox in 2004 the sheer volume and quick-pace of resources being added was nearly overwhelming. There were pages upon pages of Pagan personal ads for my area alone. There were several metaphysical shops in my area. Now I have one. Covenspace was a wonderful alternative to Facebook and I made a lot of great friends and connections there. Paganspace is a little more difficult to navigate and I'm having trouble making connections as easily. Even the "New Age/Occult" section of my local bookstores has shrunk dramatically over the past decade. Is this a regional observation, or did the Craft reach its zenith in the 90s and early 2000s and is waning, or have we backed away from the public eye and become more guarded?

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

 
Hi
I have noticed this too. On witchvox some of the countries have a lot less members than when I went online in 2004.  I know Witchvox updates regularly their memberlist. PaganSpace seems to have lots of members but very few are active. I am there under a different username. Some pagan forums are just gone mystickwicks, branwens, cauldron? home , covenspace etc. The occult forums are also very few members active. The Reddit several pagan/occult  related do have reasonable activity.
We used to have a bookfair used to be several pagan tables full the last time I went some years ago it was barely half a table of mostly new age books.
I am on some local forum with very few people posting. It is not only USA is other countries also. I think people moved on, or lost interest or have way too busy lives.
Economic times are also difficult many people have financial issues. Paganism takes time and with todays very busy schedules maybe time is a mayor issue. When I used to visit the woods is only once I saw a family wildcrafting. Very few people talking walks in nature.
My town has 2 small new age shops. The few times I buy is at http://www.AzureGreen.net/ as I make most supplies myself.

RandallS

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2015, 08:01:13 am »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Has anyone else noticed a massive slowing down of traffic on Pagan-related websites?

I've noticed this -- and it has been a dramatic slowdown over the past few years. At one time TC averaged 5000-6000 posts a month. Now it is a couple of thousand most months. Some of this is Facebook and Google+ where conversations are in lots and lots of seperate little groups -- which makes it nearly impossible to find most of it.

However, a lot of it seems to be something more general -- people just aren't talking in online discussion areas as much. I don't know why. I wish I did as I really miss the very active forum TC used to be.

Quote
Even the "New Age/Occult" section of my local bookstores has shrunk  dramatically over the past decade. Is this a regional observation, or  did the Craft reach its zenith in the 90s and early 2000s and is waning,  or have we backed away from the public eye and become more guarded?

There doesn't seem to be as much new being published these days. The market was flooded with Pagan and Wiccan 101 books in from the early 1990s to 2005 or so. I imagine it collapsed from too much stuff repeating the same info. There is only so many 101 books even the rawest beginner needed.

I'm not sure that this means Pagan religions aren't growing or that people are becoming more secretive or that people no longer have time for Pagan forums (etc.)
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Laveth

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2015, 12:52:12 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

 
I've noticed this too, and I chalk part of it up to seasonal shifts in activity (people get busy in the summer, but tend to stay indoors more in the winter).

The other part.. it's just very hard to say. It's been a pretty hectic few years for me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one going through transitional stages right now.

Darkhawk

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2015, 01:54:50 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;174308
I've noticed this -- and it has been a dramatic slowdown over the past few years. At one time TC averaged 5000-6000 posts a month. Now it is a couple of thousand most months. Some of this is Facebook and Google+ where conversations are in lots and lots of seperate little groups -- which makes it nearly impossible to find most of it.

 
I think the growth and fragmentation of social media is huge and not to be understated in significance.  Long-form discussion/social forums and blogging sites (forums, Livejournal, and such) are way less active than they used to be in basically every way.  The big blogs, or at least the things that have Seriously Dedicated Bloggers, they keep going; the small-community sort of blogging stuff that I used to do (both on LJ and not) is much less active than it was.

About every month or so I get a post on LJ from someone saying "I keep meaning to write more here but I keep spilling the trivia of my life on Twitter instead and then I don't have anything to talk about".  Also, someone posting something of content "Does anyone still read this thing?"

(Where is the happening conversation stuff happening?  Apparently Facebook and Tumblr, the deeper mechanisms of neither of which I wish to plumb.  Especially when essentially everything I hear about the pagan tumblr conversations makes me want to build a bunker and never leave it.)
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Emma Eldritch

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2015, 03:23:01 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Has anyone else noticed a massive slowing down of traffic on Pagan-related websites? I really miss Bewitching Ways and the old Covenspace. When my husband and I met on WitchVox in 2004 the sheer volume and quick-pace of resources being added was nearly overwhelming. There were pages upon pages of Pagan personal ads for my area alone. There were several metaphysical shops in my area. Now I have one. Covenspace was a wonderful alternative to Facebook and I made a lot of great friends and connections there. Paganspace is a little more difficult to navigate and I'm having trouble making connections as easily. Even the "New Age/Occult" section of my local bookstores has shrunk dramatically over the past decade. Is this a regional observation, or did the Craft reach its zenith in the 90s and early 2000s and is waning, or have we backed away from the public eye and become more guarded?

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

 
Well, the brick and mortar stores are actually pretty easy to explain - the recession and the internet. My mom ran an occult and new age book and supply store a few years ago, and it was a miracle she made the rent every month. Everything is cheaper online, which was frustrating because you'd have people ask "oh, are you going to stock herbs?" or something like that, and if you did they'd then complain about the price and go online anyway.

On the other end of the spectrum, I've noticed that my local big box bookstore has actually gotten better shit in the occult section. It's not just dream dictionaries and Wicca 101 anymore! ...although the store is closing down in the near future, so.

As for online communities, I've definitely noticed that forums are a dying breed. I think most people instead use Facebook, with the younger folks possibly using tumblr. I'm not sure how lively livejournal/dreamwidth communities are anymore, so perhaps they continue to thrive?

As to why it seems like there's less online conversation... I'm not sure. Part of it is no doubt lack of time, and I also think that some people have a hard time finding a place where they feel comfortable discussing things with strangers. A forum like TC that's been around a long time has its own culture that isn't always easy for newbs to get into, so why bother when you could probably just find a facebook group where shit seems more casual? I imagine for younger people (god I hate typing that) there's even less motivation to fit in to an established forum.

Just as a note, since you mentioned the ooky-spooky boom of the 90s/early 00s... that shit did come back round into fashion. I even saw a copy of Raymond Buckland's Book of Spirit Communication for sale in an Urban Outfitters last year when I went in to investigate the rumour they were selling prayer candles. (Which they were.) So there's a new wave of teenagers casting shit spells and levitating friends at parties out there, gods bless em. And I'd bet money they don't want to talk to old farts yet.

Anyway, it makes me a little sad mostly because I'm a terrifically lazy person and I like forums because all the relevant conversations are in one place - I don't really want to go hunting through Google+ or whatever to find discussion groups. But it does seem to be that that's more where people are hiding, so I guess I'll have to eventually.

Jabberwocky

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2015, 03:26:37 pm »
Quote from: Nerys53;174306
Hi
Some pagan forums are just gone mystickwicks, branwens, cauldron? home , covenspace etc. The occult forums are also very few members active.


That's not just Paganism.  I've seen similar discussions to this on politics and music forums.  I think forums/bulletin boards in general are a bit out of fashion.  I get the impression that The Cauldron averages older than it did when I first got here, although some of that is obviously continuing posters aging!

Quote
The Reddit several pagan/occult  related do have reasonable activity


That's interesting and it might suggest that at least some of the activity has just moved elsewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if a sizeable number of younger pagans are now using Tumblr as their primary place for discussions.

That said, while I'm not sure if it's actually shrinking, I do get the impression that Paganism/Occultism is stagnating somewhat at the moment.  Certainly compared to boom periods like the 70's and the 90's, both of which saw a fair bit of growth.

The economy is probably part of the explanation.  Times of recession tend to see less overall interest in art, spirituality etc. because people are more focused on surviving from day to day.

But I also think it's simply because we've not had much new arrive recently.  Both the 70's (the new age movement) and the 90's (chaos magick) had some quite definite trends that attracted people.

That tends to by cyclic though.  As we come out of the worldwide recession we might well see another upsurge.
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Gilbride

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2015, 03:54:18 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

 
This is also true of all the martial arts forums I used to read, I think it's probably true of all forums on any topic. People just check their Facebook groups now.

carillion

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2015, 05:50:30 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Has anyone else noticed a massive slowing down of traffic on Pagan-related websites? I really miss Bewitching Ways and the old Covenspace. When my husband and I met on WitchVox in 2004 the sheer volume and quick-pace of resources being added was nearly overwhelming. There were pages upon pages of Pagan personal ads for my area alone. There were several metaphysical shops in my area. Now I have one. Covenspace was a wonderful alternative to Facebook and I made a lot of great friends and connections there. Paganspace is a little more difficult to navigate and I'm having trouble making connections as easily. Even the "New Age/Occult" section of my local bookstores has shrunk dramatically over the past decade. Is this a regional observation, or did the Craft reach its zenith in the 90s and early 2000s and is waning, or have we backed away from the public eye and become more guarded?

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

 

I have noticed this and mourned this a lot recently. I miss the old groups and wonder what became of the lively people I used to discuss things with. I think there are a number of things which more or less put paid to the 'pagan scene'.

Of course there never would have been a 'scene' without the internet. Suddenly people were discovering that there were lots of other people that had similar thoughts and experiences and it was almost a relief to be able to speak with others who were interested in and who had experienced these things.And pagan forums online were one of the few places this could happen. I remember one forum in it's heyday clocked one post every 30 seconds and there were *hundreds* of people on it. In fact, it was too overwhelming for me and I sought smaller groups. I also remember one fabulous discussion that went on literally for days because of the time zones. It was wonderful, educational, inspirational but mostly something that seems to have long gone from any pagan forums: it was fun.

And the usual patterns followed: lots of enthusiasm, drama (both good and bad), getting banned then resurrecting (not fooling anybody because writing style is so distinctive). Fun.

The fun drained out in an effort to establish control to the point that humour and such were relegated to humour sections in case someone might inadvertently offend someone else. It all got terribly serious and for some reason, fun and humour were decided to be antipathetic to learning and debate (which I never understood). I am far more likely to engage with someone and learn from them if they don't come over all pompous and over-serious.

So it wasn't relaxing to come home at the end of a hard day and chat with other pagans - it became more work. If humour, emotion and spontaneity is taken out of conversation, it becomes very stilted and rather like a school lesson. So, not very inviting.


I visit some of the forums still in existence and note they are like Miss Havisham's house - dusty and sometimes with an elusive atmosphere of malice for those who would bring new growth or change. I see the same core group still there who have gathered like minded people about them which makes it extremely different to 'break into' the group if one does not share the prevailing groupthink. And given the people have had years to identify and codify who they find acceptable, it's a losing proposition to even try to gain friendly entry unless you agree with their ethos.

Groups became very formal and rigid which, unless some youngen came with their begging bowl for information, didn't really welcome strangers. Sort of like retirement home for old pagans - don't change the station, we only like one kind of music and for goodness sake, do not challenge the authority of the established definition of pagan-hood. I'm not surprised younger pagans found more welcoming places.

Places in flux and change are inherently more energizing and interesting (if less educational).

I think a lot of those seeking an identity moved on as that identity only worked online. In real life, being a pagan is not generally an active thing- it's not something one can build their life around or practice in involving ways if one is on their own for those starting out so it's hard to maintain momentum. If one has always lived their life with certain ideas and practises, it's not something one has to stop and , hmm, 'do'? as something divorced from their work-a-day life. But that's a philosophical proposition that grows with the years, not something one can just acquire, practise and become  quickly - some kind of 'identify in a box' one can buy.

So a lot of people lost interest when they discovered that when not being propped up and validated by others, they couldn't really create and use magic in T.V. ways to get what they wanted, that they weren't cut from special arcane cloth which raised them above the cares of everyday life. Paganism doesn't cure illness, loneliness, do your work for you and punish the unjust.

I believe ( and this is *just* my opinion) that if you don't appreciate things for what they are as opposed to what they can do for you, you'll never 'get'  what life looks like for a lot of people who identify as pagans. I feel a natural affinity for certain places and things and always have. The 'why' of that is what drew me to others who felt the same way and wanted to explore it and share it.

But for those who go out and buy a load of candles, incense, singing bowls and what nots in an attempt to make these things work for them to achieve something else, one's interest won't be held for long when these things fail to deliver what is wanted. And I think that's why a lot of the sparkle brigade picked it up then dropped it again. The ideas,concepts and history behind these things were not of primary interest and required a bit too much reading and actually just experiencing them.

Neo-paganism was trendy and now it's not so a huge percentage of the people who were initially interested drifted away to other things . The people that had formed their opinions and did not want change, ossified into their comfortable place with their friends and effectively barred the door to others .

Myself, I like change. I like to take what I already feel and see how it works in other , newer places. The people exploring , for lack of a better term, 'urban' paganism I greatly enjoy reading. One cannot go back hundreds of years and nor would I want to so learning how to apply what I already have to the present times is exciting and challenging. I know if I return to live in a rural area, the 'magic' is already there but finding it in the city streets and byways is necessary to me now as I am forced to live in a city to survive. So I try and match what I already have to my extent circumstances.

Another thing which changed it for me was the hardening of all things 'pagan' into a religion/religions. I and many people I know have never had interchange with deity and have no desire to. That, right there, puts me and them on the outs with what seems to be the majority of neo-pagans. Paganism being a religion is the antithesis of what it means to me. This is not a bash at those who found religion in the pagan area but now that they are the majority, people such as myself have no real place to go to express oneself or explore . I can't pretend any gods have ever spoken to me and it seems like an affront to even suggest this in most pagan places these days.

Sorry, blithering on. But this question is close to my heart. I so miss the days of natural , organically growing discussions. I *like* ookey-spooky because of what it means - whole areas of discovery waiting to be explored, phenomenon on which we are as yet ignorant but it's fun to try and figure it out.

But I wouldn't bring my ideas out into the open on a forum as I once did back in the day. I've had some very interesting things happen in the last little while which I wished I could have brought to the table and asked others about. But most places are too formal, too religious, and too wary about pushing the envelope for me to speak about these things. I *could* mention an event as long as I put the caveat that I thought a deity was involved, but not if I don't believe it to be the case.

I think the hey-day is done and gone. The core group was always small and I think will remain so. My beliefs grow stronger by the day and I get as much nourishment and enjoyment out of my world-view as I ever did . I try to grow and learn new things. Halloween will always be my favourite day :).

But pagan forums? The type I felt at home with are gone and though I wish the new type well, I deeply miss the path that sprang up and looked to lead to even greater things and now has been closed off. I've searched and searched, but the people and places that gave me so much will not return, I don't think, and the solitariness of so much of paganism has brought me back to what was my reality before these places existed.

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2015, 05:56:49 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301


Any thoughts or perspectives on this?
I began using ecauldron back in 2010, and when I started, it was a lot more active 5 years ago, than it is today! I think part of it has to do with social media being the preferred method of communication these days. Message boards are becoming less and less active in general. As far as books go, the market got flooded and now you're finding more books that are geared to a specific path as opposed to general Paganism and in less quantity. Book stores can't compete with Amazon, and in my neck of the woods Half Priced Books is putting most bookstores out of business. I've also tried Paganspace and it's just a pain to use and really hard to find people to connect with. I would say the same for Witchvox. I've tried both places and really haven't had much luck connecting with anyone. There's just not enough people trying to make connection that way anymore.
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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2015, 08:13:54 pm »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301

Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

 
Like other people, I think it's a combination of things.

I think the move to communication platforms like Tumblr and Facebook is definitely a huge factor. However, Tumblr doesn't really encourage conversations (and even tracing things from point to point can be pretty tricky) and Facebook has the same problem with extended conversation *and* presents some very major challenges for Pagans who do not want to combine comments about their religion or other personal topics with their legal name.

(I'm one of them: I've worked in education for almost all of my career, and even though I'm quietly out to a lot of people these days, I don't put stuff on Facebook I wouldn't want a student or their parents to find. And I don't put things that reference chronic health issues on there either, which cuts down on a lot of comments I might otherwise make.

Facebook's been cracking down harder on visible pseudonyms in the past six months or so, but even before that, I only barely manage to have an account for legal name stuff where I really need a Facebook account (including managing pages for work) and two accounts was Just Not Happening. I know a fair number of people in the same basic mode, anyway.)

Anyway, both also have real point of entry issues - if you know people having interesting conversations on Tumblr or Facebook, you can find stuff from them, but if you don't, it's often really opaque how you find the good stuff.

I do also think the growth of offline Pagan options has had an effect. It's not that there's Pagan groups in every place, but there's a lot more (and a lot more visible) than there used to be. There's things like Pagan Pride events and festivals that are fairly widely announced/searchable online. And so people who want the in-person conversation can more easily find it.

I had a very weird experience during my training in the 2000s, where I was active in in-person stuff (in Minneapolis/St. Paul, which has comparatively many active Pagan stuff) but many of the people I was talking to weren't at all connected online. I realised fairly early there that there's a *lot* of that going on, but the online people don't see the offline people, and vice versa, unless you're pretty deliberate about it.
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Laveth

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2015, 10:46:59 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;174337
I had a very weird experience during my training in the 2000s, where I was active in in-person stuff (in Minneapolis/St. Paul, which has comparatively many active Pagan stuff) but many of the people I was talking to weren't at all connected online. I realised fairly early there that there's a *lot* of that going on, but the online people don't see the offline people, and vice versa, unless you're pretty deliberate about it.

This is a really good point. I know a lot of people who follow some form of pagan path or another who simply aren't interested in doing their research, practice, or finding a community through the internet. Most of them are in their mid 30's and older, if that provides any additional information (I can't really speak for the teens at this point in my life).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 10:47:32 pm by Laveth »

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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2015, 09:43:53 am »
Quote from: Jaxxie;174301
Any thoughts or perspectives on this?

One thing you can do if you like forums like The Cauldron is to participate in them more AND convince a friend or two to join and participate as well. Note the "join and participate" as joining and not participating really does not help much.

Another thing you can do if you are activate on social networks is share interesting threads with appropriate groups of friends. If you are on Facebook, The Cauldron has a page where some new threads get posted which would probably make it easier to share them. See: https://www.facebook.com/thecauldronforum
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 09:46:15 am by RandallS »
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Re: Drop in Activity on Pagan Websites?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2015, 11:05:07 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;174315

(Where is the happening conversation stuff happening?  Apparently Facebook and Tumblr, the deeper mechanisms of neither of which I wish to plumb.  Especially when essentially everything I hear about the pagan tumblr conversations makes me want to build a bunker and never leave it.)

 
There's a reason we call Tumblr an inescapeable blue hell.
"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self." - Hemingway

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