Author Topic: Faiths/Denominations within Heathenism (Read 4518 times)

Elizabeth · « **on:** April 25, 2015, 05:46:45 pm »

I've been searching online, and tried searching the forums, but I'm not having much luck.

I understand Heathen can stand as a catch-all for the pre-Christian faiths of the Germanic people.

I know that Asatru is the Icelandic expression. Beyond that, I'm having trouble.

Is Forn Siðr the Danish expression? What other "expressions" of the Heathen faith are there?

I'm sorry if this is a basic question, but I'm having trouble comprehending the different faiths within the greater whole of Heathenism.

bobthesane · « **Reply #1 on:** April 26, 2015, 06:53:20 pm »

Quote from: Elizabeth;174289

I've been searching online, and tried searching the forums, but I'm not having much luck.

I understand Heathen can stand as a catch-all for the pre-Christian faiths of the Germanic people.

I know that Asatru is the Icelandic expression. Beyond that, I'm having trouble.

Is Forn Siðr the Danish expression? What other "expressions" of the Heathen faith are there?

I'm sorry if this is a basic question, but I'm having trouble comprehending the different faiths within the greater whole of Heathenism.

There's also "die Sitte" (The Custom) for more continental German, Theodism for Anglo-Saxons, Forn Sedr is more Norwegian, Asatro is Swedish... Keeping in mind that there are no hard, fast 'rules' for these, and definitely some blurred boundaries between them

Ghost235 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 27, 2015, 09:10:58 am »

Quote from: Elizabeth;174289

I've been searching online, and tried searching the forums, but I'm not having much luck.

I understand Heathen can stand as a catch-all for the pre-Christian faiths of the Germanic people.

I know that Asatru is the Icelandic expression. Beyond that, I'm having trouble.

Is Forn Siðr the Danish expression? What other "expressions" of the Heathen faith are there?

I'm sorry if this is a basic question, but I'm having trouble comprehending the different faiths within the greater whole of Heathenism.

In my experience there are a few ways to distinguish types of Heathenism. Think of these as axis that any particular group can have. For example, Ásatrúarfélagið is distinctly Icelandic(point 1), is pretty universalist(point 3) and works with the Eddas(point 2).

1. Geography(location): This is the natural variation based upon what happens when various countries work with the old ways. Forn Siðr and Ásatrúarfélagið are examples of this. You have the same basic-ish source material, just the way it is implemented is somewhat different.

2. Geography(history): In this case the difference is still geography but goes somewhat deeper. This is where you have someone recreating Heathenism based upon how it was specifically practiced in a particular location. Theodism is an excellent example of this. Though the differences are not total there are aspects that can make these practices of Heathenism difficult(but not impossible) to merge with other types of Heathenism.

3. Universal/Folkish: This is historically a very contentious point, though usually more passionately argued in the United States than in Europe in my experience. This goes into who the group believes is qualified to be a Heathen. Universalists believe that the Gods can(and do) chose their followers without concern to their race and/or heritage. Folkists believe(though this is a little murky and opinions differ) that religion is an expression of the genetic soul which tends to be passed down through family lines. This means that each family line has its own religion it should follow.

I'm sure there are more variations but those are the three that I tend to find most insightful.

Hyacinth Belle · « **Reply #3 on:** April 27, 2015, 04:26:19 pm »

Quote from: Ghost235;174345

In my experience there are a few ways to distinguish types of Heathenism. Think of these as axis that any particular group can have. For example, Ásatrúarfélagið is distinctly Icelandic(point 1), is pretty universalist(point 3) and works with the Eddas(point 2).

1. Geography(location): This is the natural variation based upon what happens when various countries work with the old ways. Forn Siðr and Ásatrúarfélagið are examples of this. You have the same basic-ish source material, just the way it is implemented is somewhat different.

2. Geography(history): In this case the difference is still geography but goes somewhat deeper. This is where you have someone recreating Heathenism based upon how it was specifically practiced in a particular location. Theodism is an excellent example of this. Though the differences are not total there are aspects that can make these practices of Heathenism difficult(but not impossible) to merge with other types of Heathenism.

3. Universal/Folkish: This is historically a very contentious point, though usually more passionately argued in the United States than in Europe in my experience. This goes into who the group believes is qualified to be a Heathen. Universalists believe that the Gods can(and do) chose their followers without concern to their race and/or heritage. Folkists believe(though this is a little murky and opinions differ) that religion is an expression of the genetic soul which tends to be passed down through family lines. This means that each family line has its own religion it should follow.

I'm sure there are more variations but those are the three that I tend to find most insightful.

This is a pretty useful way to think about it! Although instead of geography: history, maybe a sliding scale of reconstructionist mindset?...

This might be a neat graphic... maybe I'll do a blog post someday, if you don't mind, Ghost.

To the OP, there have been similar discussions in the past on this SIG if you poke around a bit.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #4 on:** April 27, 2015, 05:02:44 pm »

Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;174360

This is a pretty useful way to think about it! Although instead of geography: history, maybe a sliding scale of reconstructionist mindset?...

This might be a neat graphic... maybe I'll do a blog post someday, if you don't mind, Ghost.

To the OP, there have been similar discussions in the past on this SIG if you poke around a bit.

Thanks, everyone! I appreciate the responses.

I'm trying not to be overwhelmed with all of the information there is surrounding Germanic pre-Christian religions.

:

I'm a spreadsheet kind of gal, so having a list I can continually reference for which name goes with which country is rather helpful. I've been looking on the SIG here, and the one on the old boards and was never able to find an actual list. It's just how my mind works -- I need to compartmentalize things.

Ghost235 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 28, 2015, 07:18:32 am »

Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;174360

This is a pretty useful way to think about it! Although instead of geography: history, maybe a sliding scale of reconstructionist mindset?...

This might be a neat graphic... maybe I'll do a blog post someday, if you don't mind, Ghost.

To the OP, there have been similar discussions in the past on this SIG if you poke around a bit.

I spent awhile trying about "Geography:History" and that was the best thing I could come up with. I'm not 100% sure about a sliding scale for how reconstructionist as, in my experience,(and this could have changed) if the answer is anything other than, "Really extremely reconstructionist" most Asatru would come out against the group being Asatru at all.

On the other hand, most Asatru groups in the United States all tend to use the same source material so for "Geography:History" they would all be the same thing with not a whole lot of exceptions.

Maybe "Geography:History" as an axis would be good for Europe and this one would be good for the United States?

"Innovation/Historicity: This is how much a group either strictly adheres to how religion was done by those who originally followed the old ways(Historicity) or changes things based upon the current needs of the time(Innovation). "

And if you would like to make a graphic out of it, please feel free. Just credit the original idea to me and PM me a link to the blog post, please.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2015, 07:52:14 am »

Quote from: bobthesane;174332

Forn Sedr is more Norwegian, Asatro is Swedish... Keeping in mind that there are no hard, fast 'rules' for these, and definitely some blurred boundaries between them

Blurred boundaries? As a Swede, I would say that the distinction isn't geographical at all.

Asatro (spelled Asatru in English) is a word invented by Romanticists in the 19th century. It was the same time as when MacPherson's 'Ossian' poems were popular in Scotland and the early Druid groups emerged in Wales. Every generation are children of their times. Since these Romanticists were some sort of Christians themselves (Lutheran Neologists to be exact), they approached religion in general as belief ('tro', 'tru') rather than an Orthopractic practice, and, since they, with their beckground in Classical education, wanted a Norse equivalent to the Olympian deities of Greece, they viewed the Aesir through that lens. The result was 'Asatro'/'Asatru'.

It is 200 years since then. The word got a life of its own, and is now in current use in Sweden and Iceland (I don't know exactly which words are used in Denmark and Norway), especially among the major part of the population which does not practice old Norse religion or study it historically at universities.

It is less popular among academics and pagans. The largest Swedish pagan denomination for those who practice Norse religion, called itself The Swedish Asatru Association at the time it was founded, but now call itself The Swedish Fornsed Association, so 'Fornsi∂r'/'Fornsed' is now the word Swedish practitioners use themselves.

The reasons are several, and I probably forget some of them now. Fornsed is something you do, not a set of opinions mandatory to subscribe to. Fornsed is about all sorts of powers: Aesir, Vanir, Elves, the Departed, the Farm Wight (which I am not sure how to spell in English, but it's called Tomten in Swedish). Fornsed is not exclusively about the Aesir, and any present day exclusivist splitting in Vanatru, Jotuntru or whatnot, does not reconstruct what was once practiced as a single whole.

Holdasown · « **Reply #7 on:** July 23, 2015, 09:06:44 am »

Quote from: Elizabeth;174289

I've been searching online, and tried searching the forums, but I'm not having much luck.

I understand Heathen can stand as a catch-all for the pre-Christian faiths of the Germanic people.

I know that Asatru is the Icelandic expression. Beyond that, I'm having trouble.

Is Forn Siðr the Danish expression? What other "expressions" of the Heathen faith are there?

I'm sorry if this is a basic question, but I'm having trouble comprehending the different faiths within the greater whole of Heathenism.

Urglaawe - PA Dutch tradition
Northern Traditional Paganism - Includes worship of the Jotun
Norse Wicca - Wicca using Norse god/goddess
Vanatru - Worship of mostly Vanir gods and people
Asatru - Worship of mostly Asgard gods and people

I am sure there are more.

Hyacinth Belle · « **Reply #8 on:** July 23, 2015, 02:54:52 pm »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;177715

Fornsed is not exclusively about the Aesir, and any present day exclusivist splitting in Vanatru, Jotuntru or whatnot, does not reconstruct what was once practiced as a single whole.

Valuable post, FraterBenedict; thank you! This reason is one of the reasons I don't use the label of "Asatru" myself.

RecycledBenedict · « **Reply #9 on:** July 23, 2015, 03:31:59 pm »

Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;177722

Valuable post, FraterBenedict; thank you! This reason is one of the reasons I don't use the label of "Asatru" myself.

Nothing to thank me about. I am not a practitioner of Fornsed myself (if not my syncretic blurring of the Home genius and the Tomte counts: I have reason to assume they are two names of the same being within the common Indo-European worldview, and there are probably parallels outside the IE family as well). I have met several Fornsed practitioners at pubmoots, and in my former message, I just tried to describe things the way these members of the Swedish Fornsed Association described them to me. I hope my short version was recognisable to them. The two most commonly occurring types of Pagans in my corner of the world are Fornsed practitioners and solitary-eclectic Wiccans, probably in that order of frequency. LHP magicians are quite visible as well, but probably not because of their numbers, but because they are ... visible.

bobthesane · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2015, 08:15:24 am »

Quote from: FraterBenedict;177715

Blurred boundaries? As a Swede, I would say that the distinction isn't geographical at all.

Asatro (spelled Asatru in English) is a word invented by Romanticists in the 19th century. It was the same time as when MacPherson's 'Ossian' poems were popular in Scotland and the early Druid groups emerged in Wales. Every generation are children of their times. Since these Romanticists were some sort of Christians themselves (Lutheran Neologists to be exact), they approached religion in general as belief ('tro', 'tru') rather than an Orthopractic practice, and, since they, with their beckground in Classical education, wanted a Norse equivalent to the Olympian deities of Greece, they viewed the Aesir through that lens. The result was 'Asatro'/'Asatru'.

It is 200 years since then. The word got a life of its own, and is now in current use in Sweden and Iceland (I don't know exactly which words are used in Denmark and Norway), especially among the major part of the population which does not practice old Norse religion or study it historically at universities.

It is less popular among academics and pagans. The largest Swedish pagan denomination for those who practice Norse religion, called itself The Swedish Asatru Association at the time it was founded, but now call itself The Swedish Fornsed Association, so 'Fornsi∂r'/'Fornsed' is now the word Swedish practitioners use themselves.

The reasons are several, and I probably forget some of them now. Fornsed is something you do, not a set of opinions mandatory to subscribe to. Fornsed is about all sorts of powers: Aesir, Vanir, Elves, the Departed, the Farm Wight (which I am not sure how to spell in English, but it's called Tomten in Swedish). Fornsed is not exclusively about the Aesir, and any present day exclusivist splitting in Vanatru, Jotuntru or whatnot, does not reconstruct what was once practiced as a single whole.

Hey, these days I just call myself 'heathen', and fully admit that my understanding of the geographical and philosophical distinctions between different variants of Germanic heathenry is flawed

dawbeast · « **Reply #11 on:** September 23, 2015, 01:35:30 pm »

Quote from: bobthesane;177981

Hey, these days I just call myself 'heathen', and fully admit that my understanding of the geographical and philosophical distinctions between different variants of Germanic heathenry is flawed

me too bobthesane!

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Author Topic: Faiths/Denominations within Heathenism (Read 4518 times)

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